I see you don't adress the point of card availability.
What do you think is the logical evolution of the Legacy scene expanding, if WotC decides to not to reprint old staples like the Duals?
The format stagnates because it can't expand anymore. There won't be enough Duals for all people.
I have a vision of Dragon Stompy and Merfolk being the most-played decks in the format...*shudders*
Availability,
It is not that there may be no duals available it is that they will cost more. It is true that as more people become interested in the format for various reasons that cards that have a defined print run will increase in value markedly if they are used in a legacy deck. What is also true is that almost everyone has his/her price.
There will always be duals on the open market because some fraction of the owners value the money they can get from a dual more than the dual itself. When underground sea reaches 120.00 US there will be people that will sell off thier underground seas because 480.00 is worth more to them then having a playset. Conversely, there will be people that would like them enough to pay that much for them.
The point I am making is that there will always be staples available at places like ebay and that if you want a card and are willing to pay marketvalue, then you will have little trouble making a legacy deck. Make no mistake, legacy staples will always be available for new players, but thier price may not be easy to swallow.
-Peace
I own 16 blue duals, 10 other duals, 12 FoW, 4 LED, 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1 Sea Drake, 3 Tarmogoyf (I know, I know, wtf), plenty of fetches, and playsets of other non-cheap cards like Survival, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Natural Order, and Wasteland. I bought a Loyal Retainers recently, too.Originally Posted by godryk
And I would rejoice if these cards were reprinted, because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with. In that light, a reprinting that crashes prices makes my cards MORE valuable to me, because if the format grows, I get to use them more often!
I'm only able to play this format seriously because I managed to buy those cards cheaply, so I know from personal experience that the price of the format is a serious barrier to entry. Why should I deny to others the opportunity that I had, to buy these cards cheaply? If speculators get burned, well that's the fucking risk of speculating now isn't it.
This is so dumb. Why would you quit playing? Your cards don't suddenly not work just because there's new versions around. It's not suddenly any less awesome to fight through a counterwall, or to bash with dudes, or to bait out a Force, or to break new tech, or to salivate while flipping through your deck finding the perfect thing to get with Survival. This stuff is awesome regardless of how much I paid to do it. Do you really dislike Magic so much?But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
As above, I have pretty much everything I need to play any deck. True, I don't own a Tabernacle, but as I have no desire whatsoever to play any deck with that card it doesn't matter much to me. I have plenty of money put into cards specifically for this format to make the statements I do. This is a conversation between Haves about the Have-Nots - some Haves want to pull the ladder up behind them, and some (myself included) think that's a bad idea.However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me.
If there is a prevailing attitude today that is bothersome, it's "I got mine, fuck you."
While I am much more heavily invested than Matt, (60 duals, etc. etc.)I wouldn't mind a card reprinted if a deck or strategy that called for 4 of a card that was say over $100 or $150 was dominating the format.
I.e. if Imperial Painter was taking first in every tournament then I would say do we need to ban a piece of imperial painter or reprint recruiter so everyone could play it?
I also feel that speculators should severely be punished every once in a while by reprinting something that disappeared from stock all over, all of a sudden i.e. Loyal Retainer (probably reprinted as a Mythic).
This would serve 2 purposes:
1. Make wizards more money by selling packs i.e. whatever stupid boxed set they come up with.
2. Curtail the artificial inflation of prices by a few individuals. Things like dual lands are apparently too hard to do otherwise I am sure we would be seeing $500 Revised Underground Seas
That's already showing, Merfolk, Storm and LED-less Dredge make way more appearances then they should if you go after Top 8-finishes. Decks like Aggro Loam and Lands had much better results yet they don't show as often.
At some point Wizards will have to make the decision to reprint Legacy stables or let the Format die. Luckily we are not there yet, Legacy keeps growing, but with limited acces to Stables this will not last forever.
QFT
Most cards on the secondary market are bought by people who want to play with them. Sure, my Duals might loose a little value (even with reprints I highly doubt that) but many more players would have the opportunity to play Legacy, so thats a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
I'll eat my words as I think I misunderstood you, maybe because that "eat your cock" thing (in my defense I will say that I wrote that half asleep). I've never considered MTG as an investment, but we all like the financial value in playing Legacy, as cards usually keep their value. But after thinking a bit more about it I came to the conclussion that reprinting things like duals (as mythic rares maybe) wouldn't be as harmful as I previosly thought and wouldn't low the value of the original ones so much, at least for non speculative purpose. So I must admit that this thread is changing some of my previous predjuces about this topic.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
I like the treasure idea too so that even though you don't print new ones they are redistributed to people that are much more apt to play with them.
that's the best way indeed, let's just hope blizzard have tons of old stocks.
Anyway i am not that sure a reprint would drasticaly reduce the duals lands/Fow/MD/LED prices as the only way to reprint them is in a FTV box (u don't wanna see them in T2/Extended right?), so they ll be foil, and as most of MTG player are completely tasteless (understand it like this "OH SHINY(ugly but yet indeed subjective) CARD ME LIKE ME PAY 3/4/5/6/x TIME THE PRICE I DONT CARE" but in the meantime they complain about P3K cards prices), they ll rush to get those foil duals/fow/whatever, so don't expect the new price to be lower than the current one at all.
P3K, Arabian, Legend, antiquities, or anyother Non-foil edition, should never be reprinted as u want your format to evolve, not to be stucked in old metas.
I guess this call all be translated to "what if the Black Lotus and moxen were let back into Legacy?" Not that this would happen, but hypothetically if it did, what would you think of having to buy $1000 sets of cards (because you know the price would skyrocket instantly) just to keep up? Yeah, that would suck.
Eventually, it may come to that point with some of these cards. Especially Three Kingdoms as they are the least printed from what I knew. Can you imagine having to dish out $8000 for a card that makes it quite hard to compete without? Think about an amazing deck coming out that uses some rare from that set? Ouch! You know it would be bad if the uncommons are nuts just in fringe decks.
What some people fail to remember is there are still collectors out there that do not play at all. Eventually, there will come to be a shortage when people realize that sitting on some of these cards is an investment and a large one. I have more than a set of the 80 duals for a reason. They do not go down in price, ever.
Also, sheer luck plays into it some. What about the multitude of cards that are lost or accidentally destroyed making the supply even less as time goes by.
These cards will eventually be horrendously expensive and make Legacy be a format of the rich only. Vintage is already pretty rough to get into with the power. Legacy is headed that direction with the Duals. At least for us, you can partially make do with Ravnica duals.
I just hope they decide that this is the fate of these formats they care little about and decide to cut us some slack by making some FTV sets with the much requested cards.
I'm for the intelligent reprinting of Dual Lands. If it was done well in a mythic rare (incredibly hard to get, even if you buy a box of cards) or as a Judge Promo, where it is again extremely hard to get but still increases the quantity by quite a few, I would be extremely happy.
I don't think this would make the old duals drop in price, just look at the analogy of Final Fantasy 7 (One of if not the the best game ever made). On ebay you can see the discs for the game going for over 60$, but if you own a PS3 you can buy and download the game for 10$, in the comfort of your own home. You would think that it would drop the price of the discs some, but they have stayed at over 60$ from before the release of it on PS3 to now. It's a collectible, just like the old duals are. Hopefully they would drop the price 10$ from where it is now since that's where it was a year ago, but either way is fine.
Even the old Fetchlands aren't dropping almost at all in value after Zendikar is I believe the most successful and widely printed set ever. That may not be a good analogy because the new fetchlands are not exact copies of the old ones, but they serve almost the same purpose and you can easily make a Legacy deck with just new fetches.
Now I'm not entirely sure if what I'm abou to say is correct but...
I don't have staples. Hell, the most I've got is like, 3 Pithing Needles and a ADN deck that is missing LED and Tutor.
So if you asked me - fuck yes, reprint all them good staples.
So yeah this might seem like another Have-not whine, but think about it.
Did STD go down in price when FtV got printed?
How 'bout Chrome Mox as the GP promo last year?
I'll also bet money that even with Jitte being the GP promo this year it's price will remain the same.
How much did the old fetches price change with the release of the new ones?
Just maybe two dollars.
What I'm trying to say is - reprints won't(in most cases) fuck your little price tag over.
What they WILL do is bring many more players into the format - more innovative minds and more players an just more fun in general. So yeah.
And whoever said the thing about "I play 'cause it's fun" you're my fucking hero.
Possibly I'm stating the obvious, but it seems like everyone is in one of two camps. People who own the cards and do not want them reprinted because the price could drop and then there are those who want cards to be reprinted in some way to allow more people to play.
I am sort of sitting on the fence with this issue in the sense that my friend has 80 Duals 8 Goyfs Power etc. and will let me borrow cards whenever I want, and he definitely does not need all of those cards but I wouldn't want him to lose hundreds if not thousands by something that WoTC did on a whim. However, I kick myself for getting rid of my 10-12 blue duals I had when I played Vintage the first time around. If the price was what it had been when I first bought them I would buy back in immediately.
If all of the old/ hard to find cards do continue their upward spiral it should reach a plateau and then fall back towards normalcy. As format interest decreases because you could not play without the astronomically priced cards the price would drop because no one would want to buy them for that price. This vicious cycle of supply and demand should keep the format reasonable, but that theory does not always work. If supply and demand does not hold up then it becomes haves vs. have nots, and format growth completely stops as no one can afford to buy into the format.
No, no, no, 1000x NO! This is a terrible idea! It would create even MORE demand for duals in two formats that didn't previously have access to them while only increasing the supply by an insignificant amount. Prices would skyrocket instantly. If the duals are ever reprinted, it needs to be in something like the Duel Decks or FTV.
Fine, or as some version of Priceless Treasures. Although I couldn't give a shit about what Standard people have legal to them, from what I hear it's all Jund vs Vampires vs crappy decks anyway. Demand would go up a ton, but there would be so many people buying boxes that it might cancel out with supply.
Nice temper tantrum though lol.
Duals will not be mythic Rares. I think Wizards said that only case Rares that are needed by certain Archetypes but not in the majority of decks will be mythic.
But i guess as long as the Reserved List exists we don't have to worry bout stuff like that =(.
As someone who has invested enough in this format to build more or less any deck, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that I would rather WotC reprint those cards than let Legacy whither and die (if it ever came to that). Obviously we're not at that point right now, but if the day ever came (and some day it will) when players simply cannot find staples like FoW and Duals then I'd hope they would reprint them in some fashion... I mean what's the point in playing if 70% of the field is running sub-optimal decks due to availability? What's the alternative... sanctioned tourneys with proxies? Banning everything that's too hard to find? Suck it up and play a strictly worse deck? All would be even worse for the value of our cardboard, and more importantly, the health of the format.
I think we can all safely agree that as of right now there really isn't any threat of WotC redistributing anything that sits on the reserved list in a way that would be devastating to the value of the originals - and that the necessity of such a move is in the far distant future.
awesome
I bet most people are in between those two camps. I have about half the dual lands (the ones that see the most play), but I'm still looking for two Seas, two Volcanics and a couple of other ones. I'm concerned that the increasing price of duals and Forces makes it even harder for players to get into the format. To pick up any sort of blue deck, for example, new players are looking at a set of Goyfs, Forces, 7 or 8 blue duals, and 7 to 8 fetchlands. That's $900 at SCG; that means probably about $700 or so if you hunt around. That's a pretty steep starting point. Yes, those cards go into a million decks. Yes, they never rotate. Yes, etc. It's still a very steep investment for someone just starting to play the format, so it seems very reasonable to print some more duals to lower their price.
On the other hand, widely available black-bordered NM dual lands would decrease the value of the old ones considerably. That makes mine worth less, but makes it easier to pick up more. The ones I have would still be worth more than I paid for them, and would still represent a fair amount of money. So I'm ambivalent.
InfoNinjas
right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.
as for reprints, did anyone own a set of psionic blasts before they reprinted them ? what are they worth now compared to before, yeah exactly. BOPs and pithing needles used to be hot. but how much are they worth now ?
also, if they reprinted duals, they'd be blackbordered. so chances are unlimited/revised duals would drop. also, if they were in a core set, they would also have to print them as foils. how much do you think a set of foil u.seas would run ? $400 ? that would drive the price of standard through the roof.
a lot of players commenting more based on biased personal opinion here than actual facts. I dont see as many actual hardcore collectors offering their thoughts. Im a player AND a collector. I buy the cards to play with, but I dont want them to go down in value either. some of you see to be forgetting its a collectible card game, not a trading card game. there is a lot more at stake here than what a handful of people think should happen with the game.
I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want.
It's simple economics (As others have mentioned) that an increase in supply leads to decrease in price. The only way to offset this (while still increasing supply) is to also increase demand.
If Wizards heavily focus on pushing the legacy format (with tournaments, prizes etc...) as well as reprint legacy staples (with decent rarity, i.e. Mythic) this could keep both collectors and new players happy, boosting the format but not drastically altering the price of the cards. Though it would be a balancing act and collectors may lose faith in MTG at even the mention of reprints.
(as mentioned the reprints couldn't be standard/extended legal or this would increase demand and thus price even moreso).
Yep, anyone who says that Mythic Rares were not created for a purpose other than more $$$ for Wizards epic fails.
Last edited by Nizmox; 01-19-2010 at 03:27 AM.
I don't think you get it. For Wizards, there is no "collector". Wizards doesn't sell singles. They sell Booster Packs. Are collectors buying booster boxes to sit on their shelves? Are they buying a case of the newest standard set to crack all the packs? Not likely. They buy/trade singles to "complete" a set.
Players are by far the largest demand for new product. Create a neat set, say M10, with over 50% new cards, and you'll see record sales.
The myth of the collector is bubkis. It is a myth from the time of Chronicles, when printing was small and demand was high. Now we have large printings; granted, still below the demand - but that's good business for WotC (pack sales) and shop owners (singles reselling).
Believe me when I say this, not all are fortunate to be in large metropolis with lots of game shops. In my small town of 40,000, we have 2 game shops that can barely keep enough product to support a single FNM. How is such a phenomenon good for the health of Magic?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote