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Thread: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

  1. #81

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Maybe. But Natural Order has been printed twice, while Show and Tell/ Dream Halls were printed only once and they are pretty scarce even back then. Also both of these blue cards can be broken in Vintage format.

  2. #82
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Reading is tech haha. As a mainly Vintage player I don't think that people will play Show and Tell with Dream Halls as there are better things to do there and the metagame for the most part is more defined. The reason that Dream Halls has seen success is that the format is generally of lower power level than Vintage which opens the door to more new strategies. Dream Halls combo is one of these strategies that will likely not go on to Vintage especially when Time Vault Voltaic Key is in the format. I might be wrong, but I doubt that Dream Halls will see much if any play in Vintage.

  3. #83

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    But I'm sure there are a good deal of collectors who would go absolutely apeshit if Tabernacle or some other ridiculously priced card like Imperial Seal were reprinted.
    I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
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  4. #84

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    I think that prices are going to stay high even when people realize that retainers is maybe not the new Dark Depths.

    It's the Rishadan Port principle-a card that sees corner case play in maybe one deck but people are unwilling to value them at their actual utility.

    That said, speculation really is its own antidote because without people being able to try decks cheaply, the growth of demand for the cards is dramatically stunted.

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
    Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

    But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
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  6. #86

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by godryk View Post
    Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

    But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
    Baneslayer angel can still be "bought" in boosters, but that doesn't seem to keep the price down. Hell it's more expensive than most duals, so why do you think, that reprinting duals would lower their value? They would certainly not be played in less decks.

    If wizards were to reprint tabernacle, I don't think it would lower the price of the original much. Maybe by $50-100, but isn't that as bad as if you sold off a moat 1 year ago? You would have "lost" around $50.
    The old originals will still be worth quite a lot, mainly because they are originals (and quite rare), and that Magic is a collectible card game.

  7. #87

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by godryk View Post
    Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

    But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
    word, one thing people seems to miss is that buying cards isnt a dead investment ... as they will always worth more by the time goes by .... and yes then again wizzard should NEVER reprint such staples even using the FTV crap. And people also seems to forget that Type 2 remain the most expensive format, as you always have to buy and rebuy new cards, in legacy u just have to buy them once and contrary to type 2 when u ll feel like reselling them, the price will be at worse the same, contrary to type 2 where cards lose like 50% if not more.

  8. #88
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
    Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.

    I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.

    However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.

    I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.

    Sigh... I must be getting old.

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  9. #89
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    The collector argument boils down to this:

    You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.

    It is the speculators/dealers that are not going to be happy to see reprints ruin the value of their inventory; and that will be more than made up with more business from new inventory. This is also a risk of the market, and is totally within the bounds of the financial risk in investing in fluctuating markets.

  10. #90
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.
    This. Really, if it has been in any core set outside of ABU, it should be allowed to be reprinted, because these cards were at one point considered the core of the game outside of the initial launch.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  12. #92
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    The collector argument boils down to this:

    You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.
    This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!

    That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...

    Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.
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  13. #93
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    This argument reminds me of Tom Lapille's recent article about blue in standard.

    Basically a bunch of people posted in the article thread about what they want and not what's good for the game.

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!

    That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...

    Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.
    I agree with this to an extent. HOWEVER, I strongly feel that things that are highly expensive based solely on their scarcity (P3K, Legends, Arabian Nights, ABU, etc) should be left alone. Dual lands are not expensive based on scarcity for the most part. There is a LOT of Revised out there. Unfortunately, there are more decks that need dual lands than can be accommodated.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  15. #95
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by thulnanth View Post
    Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.

    I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.

    However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.

    I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.

    Sigh... I must be getting old.

    Take it easy,
    Jared
    But, to look at it from another angle, the value of cards is hinged on the game, not collectiblity per se. Why is Baneslayer Angel at present worth more than any other M10 mythic rare? Why are the Masticores I bought at $15 a piece years ago now only $5 or less and dual lands are steadily rising? Players drive prices more than collectors, and I think that was the point Matt was trying to make (not that I can speak for him, but I kind of share this view). I think "let them eat cock" was a harsh way of putting that availability and health of the game is more important than maintaining card values for a few people. That, of course, implies that card values would necessarily plunge, which isn't always the case.

    Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.
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  16. #96

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    The only reason that I see for reprinting is to make the format available to everybody and I see no harm in that. More players means the format will evolve more and more + bigger tournaments!

    I myself though have collected a playset of every dual, fetch and expensive playable rare (except Moat etc which you barely play as a 4-off). I spend time searching for these at reasonable prices/trades. Spent time playing tournaments to win them or paid cash to acquire them. I can understand that people who have gone through similar effort are against the reprinting.

    It's much like real life though. You buy a new pc, something new comes out a while later and your pc decreases in value. Only here, the pc you bought is the best of the best and will never be made again so you'll have to do with the ones that are available. Pc's are known to malfunction, people who have one don't sell etc so the availability decreases and the price increases.
    But is the availability really so low? And even if you can't buy them for yourself, is there no one you could borrow them from?

    I share my collection with my team and even other people that ask me if they can borrow cards. I don't think the time for reprints has arrived yet but feel that eventually it will become a necesarry evil.

  17. #97
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
    If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by godryk View Post
    Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

    But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.
    I'd like to clarify my earlier comments as I may sound too radical due to linguistic limitations. It's a fact that the format is seeing more and more play this year due to 2 GPs and all the SCG $5k thing, I think that more and bigger tournaments imply a healthier format. But this also makes Legacy staples more demanded what means prices raising (with a little help speculators). I understand that this process may end up with Legacy being so expensive that exclude new players. I have to agree that some form of reediting some staples has to be found, so that Legacy doesn't die as Vintage is pretty much doing.

    I just wanted to raise a very common thought of most of legacy players I know and that has to be considered and respected. That hypothetical reprint of Legacy staples should be carefuly studied.
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  19. #99
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
    If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.
    Tarmogoyf might be cosidered rare if we look at the fact that a LOT of people a conserving their playset and don't want to trade them, even if they have more than four. Therefor, there is not enough supply for the demand and creates rarity.
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  20. #100
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Good Morning,

    For what it is worth, here are my thoughts. As a long time magic player and supporter of the game, I have been blessed with a pretty reasonable collection of staples. I will not quit the game if we see reprints of duals or other sought after staples of the format but I will be dissipointed.

    Wizards has created several formats that get far more press and tournaments than legacy which contain only cards that are currently available in booster packs. Legacy is a format that allows almost every card ever printed and in general; to own a great legacy deck, you should buy in to the format (literally). If you want a format whose best cards are currently available in packs, perhaps legacy is not for you. That is part of the appeal of the format. I just puchased a tabernacle for over 2 hundred because I will appreciate it and play it. I saved for a while to get that card and I will enjoy it more for that.

    If legacy matters to you and you really want to play it competitively, spend your money acquiring legacy staples rather than buying baneslayers for 60 bucks. It has been said more times than I want to count but legacy is less expensive over the long haul than standard. Instead of saying that WOTC should pave the road for you by reprinting expensive staples of an old format, save and trade your way into a deck you can truely be proud of.

    -Peace

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