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Thread: [Deck] Aggro Loam

  1. #4101
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    Bobmans's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Stuhl did a 5-0 on mtgo, yesterday? List

    Most notable where 2 MD Collective Brutality, have have those performed?
    Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
    Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
    4c Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    How about: ramp into Deed, clear the board, and bash your opponent's head in.

  2. #4102

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Collective brutality has been a great 1 of main board, I'm going to try two now.

    @stuhl thank you very much for sharing your tournament report, and congrats! I know this is a big request, but could you tell us how you sideboarded in those matchups? And if you did anything different on play vs draw. I've been playing this deck exclusively for months and always interested in how people are boarding. Thanks

  3. #4103

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Yes, I can try :) I will do it (and answering the other questions) tomorrow evening. But probably I won't be able to remember most stuff. I a usually not boarding after a strict plan.

  4. #4104

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitend89
    Played a couple of standstill list online and am looking for tips.

    Standstill on empty board: break at the end of their turn when their hand is full and they have to discard?
    Standstill with a threat on their side: just pop it?
    Standstill with a threat on your side: no reason to pop it?
    Well, if they have a threat and you not then you need to ignore it imo. Just play something, ideally EOT, such that they have to discard. But don't wait too long. I mean, people draw 3 with Ancestral Vision and we still can win. It is not easy but it's doable.

    If it comes down on an empty board I usually just say go and play lands. If you have a fetch go into the Dryad Arbor beatdown. Keep your Wastelands for their manlands and just see how the game proceeds. Usually they have to play something at some point.

    If your opponent lands it with a threat on your side he is not a very good player or has some very weird plans. Just do not play anything. And be careful with Moxes! Sometimes they do not feel like a spell but more like a land :D (speaking of experience)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jo4source
    @ sthul thanks for your time and reply. I'm a guy that wants to play this style of deck loam, grindy, jund like. Also I kept getting beaten by fish as a delver player. Any ways I own a beat up tabernacle and want to make sure my list is optimal because I do want to win and hone in on the deck. I also don't really find my self as a blue player but I like to win so I gravitated to blue. Do you think this is the best deck that dose not play blue?

    Hey if your committed to aggro loam want to start a fb group?
    Well, I think Death and Texas is probably the best deck that does not play blue. However, 4c Loam is close and in the end it all depends on the Pilot (like always in eternal formats). Chalice of the Void is the reason to play this deck. Also, Bob and Lili are just such strong cards. I enjoy it to draw cards and play Planeswalkers. I always disliked the lack of card advantage in Maverick (I played Maverick before) and DnT. But actually all nonblue decks in Legacy have the same good MU against midrange/Delver strategires. Be it Chalice, Thalia or Mother of Runes.
    Also, big creature decks (Nic Fit, Show and Tell) and fast combo (T1/2) are probably the worst MUs of these decks.

    I don't think we have enough people for a reasonable fb group? :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmans

    Stuhl did a 5-0 on mtgo, yesterday? List

    Most notable where 2 MD Collective Brutality, have have those performed?
    Well, I boarded Brutality so often that I decided to play it main. I moved Ghost Quarter to SB again as I think it does not really help in bad MUs but rather in good MUs (Delver/4c Piles). I also removed Toxic Deluge as the TNN hype seems to fade (at least in my experience).
    I really like the card. It helps against combo, gets rid of Shamans/Delvers/Goblin Guides, sometimes finishes the game or gives you one more turn (having access to some lifegain feels good in this deck) and has nice synergy with Loam/Pfire.

    Here is the tournament report with SB as far as I remember. At least it is as I would do it today.
    Note: I never changed my Board in G3. I don't think there is any particular reason to do that. In general I more or less only board in G3 when I realized I did not board correctly in G2 (i.e. forgot an important card) or when I saw something in my opponents deck that I did not see in G1/2.
    In this tournament this did not happen as far as I remember.

    Round #1: Mirror (2-1)

    As it is the nature of Aggro Loam mirrors it was a grindfest. I won the 1st game with fast KotR.
    Game #2 I started with Leyline but my opponent was able to stick his Bob early and take over the game.
    Out: -1 Gaddock Teeg, -4 Chalice, -2 Pfire, -1 Maze (kept Karakas as I was not sure if he played DD combo.)
    In: +3 Leyline, +2 StP, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Garruk, +1 Golgari Charm
    Game #3 I again had a Leyline. After some grinding we both were in top deck mode. Besides my Leyline I had the better draws here so I was able to take over the game.
    Same Board


    Round #2: Burn (2-0)

    I think my opponent was pretty new to the format. He also seemed nervous. I won game #1 with a big KotR and Lili (for some reason he did not kill her, so he had to discard burn spells).
    Game#2 he started with Goblin Guide. I played Brutality with all modes on T1 (living the dream, discarding two lands) followed by a 4/4 KotR T2.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -4 Bobs, -1 Karakas
    In: +1 Brutality, +2 StP, +1 Rec Sage, +2 Golgari Charm

    Round #3: Elves (2-0)

    Game #1 won Chalice on 1 and a timely Deluge.
    Game #2 my opponent started with Leyline but the game was ruled by Gaddock Teeg, Lili and Ethersorn Canonist making it more or less impossible for my opponent to do anything. Yet, my clock was pretty slow (2/2 KotR) and I had to give him a lot of draws. In the end Lili ulti closed out the game.
    Out: -2 KotR, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Library, -1 Ooze, -2 Zenith, -1 Loam, -1 Lili (against Elves I keep Gaddock just as a beater and nice to have draw but nevertheless I think Zenith on Gaddock is not worth it. I have to board out stuff for my huge SB plan against elves, so I think this is ok. My strategy after boarding is "kill all the elves" and then think about your own victory. Racing against elves makes no sense imo [at least without DD combo]. They just block your dudes anyway.)
    In: +2 TS, +2 StP, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Brutality, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Canonist

    Round #4: Infect (2-1)

    Game #1 I was killed by a T3 Blighted Agent in berserk mode (did not find a removal).
    Game #2 I killed his Hierarch and wasted his Topical Island. As it turned out he kept a one lander...
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Ooze, -4 Chalice, -2 Zenith (The curve of Infect makes Chalice bad imo. It is nice to have game 1 but in SB games we want removal. Always. When they pass the turn without a creature in game we probably have won.)
    In: +2 StP, +2 TS, +1 Brutality, +2 Canonist, +2 Golgari Charm
    Game #3 I had a T1 Bob into several Decays so I could kill all the Infecters he played. Bob put me ahead from there.
    Same Board

    Round #5: Jund (2-1)

    Game #1 I had large KotR to grind the game out. Also Chalice on 1 did some little things like countering a cascaded DS.
    Game #2 I was overrun by big Goyfs.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -4 Chalice
    In: +2 StP, +1 Garruk, +1 Brutality, +2 Golgari Charm (Charm against random Library/Leyline or primarily Bobs. In this MU the one sticking a Bob that does not get handled wins. I think it is the best card I can board in after the 4 obvious ones.)
    Game #3 my opponents mana base was soft and he could not handle my Wasteland/Loam hand. I finally won woth big KotRs.
    Same Board

    Round #6: UR Delver (2-0)

    We all know that this isn't the best MU. However, game #1 I resolved a Chalice on 1 and apparently got him totally on 1 cmc spells. After wasting one of his two Volcanic Islands the game was over.
    Game #2 was also won by a Chalice on 1. He did not find his Smashes and Bedlam Reveller gave him three 1 cmc spells while being smaller than my KotR.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Loam
    In: +2 StP, +1 Brutality, +1 Rec Sage (Rec Sage against Vortex)


    Round #7: Elves [Julian Knab] (2-0)

    I honestly don't know how I won game #1. He was on the play, I mulled to five keeping a desperate one lander with Mox, PFire, Grove, Lili and KotR and scryed a land on top. All my draws were perfectly sequenced according to this starting hand so that I was able to fight through 2 active DS and take over the game.
    Game #2 I had the nuts. T1 Ethersworn Canonist into T2 PFire with Grove into T3 Chalice on 1.
    Out: -2 KotR, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze, -1 Library, -1 Ooze, -2 Zenith, -1 Loam, -1 Lili (same boarding plan as in my previous Elves MU).
    In: +2 TS, +2 StP, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Brutality, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Canonist

    Round #8: Stoneblade (1-1-1)

    Game #1 I lost to a TNN. He had 3 Noble Hierarchs not giving my Lili a chance to do something here. Did not find Deluge.
    Game #2 I was able to take the game over with Wastelands.
    Out: -1 Teeg, -1 Karakas, -1 Ooze, -4 Chalice
    In: +2 StP, +2 Goglari Charm, +2 TS, +1 Rec Sage (TS against TNN and Equipment)
    Game #3 was a grindfest and at some point both of us had our hand full of removal spells but the battlefield was empty. Rec Sage killed his Batterskull which was very relevant.
    Same Board

    Round #9: Eldrazi (1-2)

    I did not play smooth in Game #1. As I did not know on what deck my opponent was I desiced to not play Mox on T1 but rater fake a BUG deck by just playing Catacombs. Apparently he knew that I was on Loam as he played his Chalice on 0 destroying my plan to play Lili on T2. He countered the Deluge I set up to get rid of 2 TNS and an Endless One. However, I should have known that he had Warping Wail as both TNS did not take my Deluge. With that in mind I shouldn't have wasted his Eye of Ugin but rather his mana producing land as this would have risen my chances that he does not have 2 mana to cast Warping Wail.
    Game #2 I won through a very grindy fight.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -4 Chalice
    In: +2 StP, +2 TS, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Garruk
    Game #3 I kept a slow hand (Library, Zenith, Loam,Rec Sage) without Removal or Wastelands. As it turned out he had a super fast start. His board was weak but I was too slow to find answers. Should have mulliganed this hand for sure.
    Same Board

    Round #10: 4c Czech Pile [Thomas Mar] (2-0)

    Game #1 won a T1 Bob. He did not find an answer to Bob (concerning that he pondered really hard I think I was pretty lucky here) and soon a Chalice on 1 closed the game.
    Game #2 I was on the Wasteland/Loam plan. With finally 6 Dual Lands in his graveyard the game was over.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -1 Karakas, -1 Maze
    In: +2 StP, +1 Brutality

    Quarter Finals: BR Reanimator (1-2)

    My opponent had a better placement so he was on the play and started with a T1 Griselbrand as he knew I was on Loam and had no disruption.
    Game #2 I hade double Leyling into Ooze into Chalice on 1.
    Out: -1 Gaddock, -3 PFire, -3 Decay
    In: +3 Leyline, +1 Containment Priest, +2 TS, +1 Brutality
    Game #3 I did not find a Leyline. My mulligan to 5 has at least a Chalice on 1. Well, he put a T1 Gravetitan on the battlefield...
    Same Board

  5. #4105
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuhl View Post
    Well, I boarded Brutality so often that I decided to play it main. I moved Ghost Quarter to SB again as I think it does not really help in bad MUs but rather in good MUs (Delver/4c Piles). I also removed Toxic Deluge as the TNN hype seems to fade (at least in my experience).
    I really like the card. It helps against combo, gets rid of Shamans/Delvers/Goblin Guides, sometimes finishes the game or gives you one more turn (having access to some lifegain feels good in this deck) and has nice synergy with Loam/Pfire.

    GQ underperformed for me as well. Wasteland is really enough, imo. Also i am not so sure about Cabal Pit, the only real reason to run this, is against Prelate, so Cabal Pit should be a SB slot at most. For now, DD/Stage has more impact as it is still a win button, and the threat is something to consider for opponents. I like to believe that it forces them to think about the angles of attack we can take. For example, they can try and wasteland our Groves to shut out PFire, which in it's turn removes the wasteland threat against a potential Marit Lage. In so many cases it can break symmetry, where the board is in a deadlock.
    Interesting to hear about the Deluge, aside of Elves and TNN the card provides anough value. We do not have any sweeper and sometimes our removal G1 isn't sufficient. I have been considering between QPM and Deluge, but decided that Deluge more actuall usage G1 then QPM. Most of the time i try to fit PFire #4, replacing both with Brutatility might be interesting to try.

    Again a 5-0 for Aggro Loam, one Bicycle land in this version, still wondering how good those actually are.
    Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
    Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
    4c Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    How about: ramp into Deed, clear the board, and bash your opponent's head in.

  6. #4106
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmans View Post

    Again a 5-0 for Aggro Loam, one Bicycle land in this version, still wondering how good those actually are.
    The bicycle land was interesting. It impacted the times when I was digging since you want cmc1 cycle ones. The thing that was great was to be able to run a basic swamp for the barren moor and the badlands for this one....
    Turns your matchup against wasteland and against moon decks more solid. Still needs a lot more testing.

    I am also thinkin on taking GQ to the sideboard once again or even out of the list since it does not really fit my playstyle. Need to get my hands on Brutality to test it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

  7. #4107

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilhas View Post
    The bicycle land was interesting. It impacted the times when I was digging since you want cmc1 cycle ones. The thing that was great was to be able to run a basic swamp for the barren moor and the badlands for this one....
    Turns your matchup against wasteland and against moon decks more solid. Still needs a lot more testing.

    I am also thinkin on taking GQ to the sideboard once again or even out of the list since it does not really fit my playstyle. Need to get my hands on Brutality to test it out.
    Are they releasing the other half of the bicycle lands in the next block? I'd be more willing to experiment once they release a / and / one, having more lands that can be sac'd with Knight is always a good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    There's no control, not even close. The 4cc is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

  8. #4108

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmans View Post
    GQ underperformed for me as well. Wasteland is really enough, imo. Also i am not so sure about Cabal Pit, the only real reason to run this, is against Prelate, so Cabal Pit should be a SB slot at most.
    Well, I don't think that Cabal Pit is bad right now. I think there are way more applications than Prelate. It is basically a removal spell we can get out of KotR. With Loam it is a recurring removal spell. I won lots of games by killing a critical Delver with Pit. I don't want to miss it right now. Even in weird situations in which you have to kill your own Bob to secure the game state it shines. I enjoy this flexibility more than having the DD combo out.

    I'm not sold on the bicycle lands. I think it is very critical to cycle for 1. In most Loam/cycle land scenarios you have exactly 1 mana open to start the engine. The fact that it produces two colors is not worth the downside of cycling it for 2 imo.

  9. #4109
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    Are they releasing the other half of the bicycle lands in the next block? I'd be more willing to experiment once they release a / and / one, having more lands that can be sac'd with Knight is always a good thing.
    You can easily go the other route and replace the tranquil thicket with the G/W and keep barren moor. Maybe that is not a bad ideia

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuhl View Post
    I'm not sold on the bicycle lands. I think it is very critical to cycle for 1. In most Loam/cycle land scenarios you have exactly 1 mana open to start the engine. The fact that it produces two colors is not worth the downside of cycling it for 2 imo.
    Just to clarify that I am not sold on those by any means.... Just trying to get a more stable manabase if possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

  10. #4110

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    I watched/assisted a friend of mine playing the deck on modo with a bicycle land, and every time we used it to actually cycle, it was strictly worse than Tranquil Thicket. Like.. it kept us off of plays and changed the outcome of games. Maybe there is some logic to the black-based fetches, but I don't play those as my manabase is Gxxx (no Badlands) and I almost never actually play cycles as lands.

    I'm hearing a lot of "Move x to the board", and tbh my board is more tight than my main right now.

    I don't think moon-stompy has ever been a bad matchup. If you mull to a green source you basically auto-win. On the draw that's 80.6% if you are willing to go to 5, and like 98%+ on the play. Plus the scry.

    Is anybody still liking GQ? I was gonna finally test it in the main tonight, but I'm very willing to buy the argument against it and save the trouble.

    I'm evaluating Cabal Pit as a better Maze of ith (it makes mana in its bad matchups) to justify playing it *and* the combo. Its obv worse against Sneak&Show, Goyf, Eldrazi, but I think tapping for mana makes up for all of that.

  11. #4111
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolyps6 View Post
    I don't think moon-stompy has ever been a bad matchup. If you mull to a green source you basically auto-win. On the draw that's 80.6% if you are willing to go to 5, and like 98%+ on the play. Plus the scry.
    Really? It stops most of your deck and you only know what you are playing against in g2 or 3.
    They also got the new commander card to mess with our moxes and creatures(except knight). Besides, you are never sure which version they are running since the shell is much of the same but the winning conditions vary greatly (Planeswalker/Creatures/Sneak Attack)

    If this is not a bad matchup I am not sure what would qualify as one....
    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

  12. #4112

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Hm, so when I play against the deck I tend to know my opponent is on it, which skews my perception.

    And I get the sense that I have a stronger tendency to mull to moxen then most other pilots. IMO going to 6 is perfectly fine cuz the deck will unmull with bob/library/pfire/loam/etc eventually.

    I'm also playing Pridemage main and 3 GSZ so I probably should not have been so general in my statement.

    So the ways in which my list deviates from the stock one make the matchup pretty decent for me personally, but I can see why the stock list is struggling.

    Even so, if you start each postboard-game with a mox now you have pfire+plow against magus, and Zenith for Rec Sage against Moon. I guess Sneak Attack is bad either way because your defense is proactively zenithing for Teeg and hoping to dodge Inferno Titan or w.e. But against random dudes/walkers I think you have enough time to Library/Bob into another mox to turn on the rest of your spells, at which point their gameplan just melts to our interaction.

  13. #4113

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolyps6 View Post
    Hm, so when I play against the deck I tend to know my opponent is on it, which skews my perception.

    And I get the sense that I have a stronger tendency to mull to moxen then most other pilots. IMO going to 6 is perfectly fine cuz the deck will unmull with bob/library/pfire/loam/etc eventually.

    I'm also playing Pridemage main and 3 GSZ so I probably should not have been so general in my statement.

    So the ways in which my list deviates from the stock one make the matchup pretty decent for me personally, but I can see why the stock list is struggling.

    Even so, if you start each postboard-game with a mox now you have pfire+plow against magus, and Zenith for Rec Sage against Moon. I guess Sneak Attack is bad either way because your defense is proactively zenithing for Teeg and hoping to dodge Inferno Titan or w.e. But against random dudes/walkers I think you have enough time to Library/Bob into another mox to turn on the rest of your spells, at which point their gameplan just melts to our interaction.
    Doesn't it seem a tad unreasonable to say it's heavily favorable when you your only results seem to be playing against locals who you know are playing the deck and you mulligan to your outs?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    There's no control, not even close. The 4cc is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

  14. #4114

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    I've basically walked back that statement, but I'm not only playing against confirmed moon ppl. I do lose the surprise game1s. But I also do keep a *lot* of Mox hands, and tend to fetch a basic with those hands, so I'm not winning the g1s purely from anticipation either

  15. #4115

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Well, besides Blood Moon which can be handled via Moxes we just lose to Sneak Attack and Through the Breach. Usually the mono red stompy decks ramp and can put an Emrakul/Worldspine Wurm into play within the first turns and we can do nothing against it. Gaddock Teeg often is too slow.
    Chalice on 0 is ok preboard to prevent Petals/Moxes at least.

    In my opinion this MU is horrible besides the Blood Moon discussion.

  16. #4116

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Yeah, the sneak attack version is quite hard. My understanding is that it was more fringe and less consistent than the others. Is that not the case?

  17. #4117

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by apocolyps6 View Post
    Yeah, the sneak attack version is quite hard. My understanding is that it was more fringe and less consistent than the others. Is that not the case?
    I don't know about real life but on mtgo it certainly feels like there are more sneak decks out there than stompy decks. No idea about the consistency either, I imagine it's roughly the same. Midwestern players need to stop with the degeneracy honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    There's no control, not even close. The 4cc is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

  18. #4118

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Matthias Hunt said on stream at SCG Louisville yesterday that Lands does everything Loam does better. Why do you disagree? It seems like having the ability to run W hatebears to improve combo matchups as the single largest reason to play 4c Loam.

  19. #4119

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Mainboard Chalice, discard, hatebears, board presence, not losing to a Blood Moon or Rest in Peace or Surgical...4C Loam is a very adaptable deck to each matchup. The decks are similar but very different game plans.

    Those two SCG commentators have had some room for improvement lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  20. #4120
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    The decks are similar but very different game plans.
    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Leovold because he is just gasoline. Look at the artwork. He knows it's over. He's offering your opponent the handshake.

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