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Thread: [Deck] Aggro Loam

  1. #2001

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Eh, I'd run this deck over Jund because I enjoy this deck more. I know that's a terrible reason to play a deck over a better version of the same deck, but then I haven't played Legacy in over two years and would have to borrow cards to play any deck at all, so...

    As for Chalice versus tempo, my experiences were these: tempo runs a bunch of disruption whose effectiveness is predicated on keeping you half a turn to a full turn behind where you want to be while the deck beats you down with little dorks. Even though the little dorks should be easy to deal with and even though you can play around Daze and the like, your game plan never quite has time to congeal before you die.

    That's all fine and good, but here's the rub: with Chalice in your deck, you're already playing half a turn to a full turn behind because you gave up the ability to play one-drops. Sure, you could get the magical Mox Diamond openings, but that requires you to have a very specific opening hand. Most of the time your turn one is land, go. To further compound matters, because your mana curve effectively starts on two, it's very difficult to both maximize your mana in the mid-game and play around Daze. You end up having to walk right in to the dumb taxing counters they run because the alternative is doing nothing and dying to a Nimble Mongoose or something. I guess I was just acutely feeling the lack of Abrupt Decay.

    The biggest advantage of Chalice versus tempo is that the tempo deck comes completely unglued when it can't control its draws via Brainstorm and Ponder. The biggest detriment of Chalice versus tempo is that it requires you to design your deck such that you play right into tempo's game plan unless you get a fast Chalice. Having access to Lightning Bolt so that you can just kill all of their cheap little beaters was effectively the same thing as running Chalice. Nowadays, you even get DRS.

    I don't know that I'd want to run maindeck discard. The deck is strongest when it's extremely proactive, and it's strongest when it's battling fair decks (or borderline fair decks). You don't really need discard versus fair decks, you just need to do powerful things and put the onus on your opponent to figure out how to deal with you while still advancing their own game plan. Chalice is okay for that but I'd be interested in trying Bolts and DRS instead.

  2. #2002
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Remember that Spell Pierce is also a thing in Tempo, and with Lili/Seismic being so good against them, cutting that off any time in the first couple turns is good. Daze alone isn't too bad since we run Mox.

    Really just dropping 4x Chalice for 4x 1cmc something isn't going to change your clock by a huge amount, especially if it's something mostly reactive like Bolt. It's not like Chalice builds completely lack turn 1 plays either, they just all depend on Diamond (outside of Wasteland).

    I would say give the deck a spin with Abrupt Decay and Liliana. It really changes the dynamic of Tempo matchups since it gives you cheap, guaranteed removal for their biggest threats. I think I'd rather have Punishing Fire than Bolt in those matches though, since it craps all over Delver Decks. There have been a couple times when I wished I had a bit more spot removal (mostly postboard since I tend to take out a Seismic in anticipation of grave hate), but I think Barbarian Ring might fit nicely in that slot. Dredging away all your answers has always been an issue, and still is sometimes.

    I think without Chalice, DRS is probably the best way to go just because of how good he is at so many things. I'm just sick of seeing him, and I want to keep my graveyard dependence down when possible to make things like Crypt and RiP less devastating.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  3. #2003
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    This is a good discussion. Not that the same points haven't been made before, but it's good to revisit this stuff as years pass and metagames change.

    With Chalices in the main, I think it's fine as long as you're OK with sticking it on Turn 3 or something. Chalice isn't dead if you can't resolve it Turn 1. Certainly it's worse, but it still locks out future one-drops. Step 1 is not dying to something like Turn 1 Delver from your opponent. In the current Loam deck I play (which isn't really Aggro Loam), I play one-drops rather than Chalice, but I always consider the Chalice decision to be among the primary decisions to make when you're designing a Loam deck.

    I actually like Chalice of the Void as a sideboard plan, given that it is strong against combo decks.

    As far as one-drops go, Antonius had good results with Grim Lavamancer. Granted, that was before Rest in Peace was printed. Dark Confidant is a great way to get card advantage outside of the graveyard, so even if Chalice's sole function was to protect Dark Confidant, that might be enough.

  4. #2004

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Here's a list of the most played cards in the current meta. Not big of a variation across the months.
    http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.php
    Note that half of the list is 1CC, aka, Chalice targets. And it doesn't even include Bolt and what else. We could name it all.

  5. #2005

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    About turn 1 plays in a chalice deck, this is what I had 1 iteration ago:
    4 Mox diamond
    2 green sun zenith (for dryad arbor)
    1 dismember (solves a lot of problems for us)
    3-4 cycle lands

    I would not call that a dead turn 1. I don't always need it, and I don't always have it but there isn't a need to give up turn 1 plays. Adding heavy discard seems like compounding the "turn 0" problem rather than solving it.

    Also, if we can establish a mana base our deck is literally full of cards that beat tempo.
    We win the wasteland game
    Our creatures to over theirs
    We have removal they can't answer
    We can turn off a bunch of cantrips, threats, and answers as early as turn 1.

    There is also maybe some experimenting to be done with
    2-3x DRS
    2x cavern of souls

    It is painful on be manabase but solves a lot of curve issues and should improve blue matchups

  6. #2006

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    This is a good discussion. Not that the same points haven't been made before, but it's good to revisit this stuff as years pass and metagames change.

    With Chalices in the main, I think it's fine as long as you're OK with sticking it on Turn 3 or something. Chalice isn't dead if you can't resolve it Turn 1. Certainly it's worse, but it still locks out future one-drops. Step 1 is not dying to something like Turn 1 Delver from your opponent. In the current Loam deck I play (which isn't really Aggro Loam), I play one-drops rather than Chalice, but I always consider the Chalice decision to be among the primary decisions to make when you're designing a Loam deck.

    I actually like Chalice of the Void as a sideboard plan, given that it is strong against combo decks.

    As far as one-drops go, Antonius had good results with Grim Lavamancer. Granted, that was before Rest in Peace was printed. Dark Confidant is a great way to get card advantage outside of the graveyard, so even if Chalice's sole function was to protect Dark Confidant, that might be enough.
    Well, thankfully right now there aren't a ton of decks that are capable of killing Bob and shutting down graveyard access, at least in game one. LftL can still provide card advantage going long in that case.

    With TNN floating around I think DRS is better than Lavamancer. Not only does it do the same amount of damage to my opponent for one less card exiled (and not even my card!), but running Diamond and DRS gives us six to eight turn-one mana acceleration plays so that we can curve into a three mana bomb or two-drop with protection from Daze. That seems pretty sweet. It's not difficult to eat lands out of our own graveyard since we run so many, and because we don't need more than one fetchland to make land drops off of Loam recursion, we can safely eat all the rest.

    Chalice is fine against combo. What really matters is how much of a clock you have in the main. It's not impossible to remove Chalice so you still need the right combination of good draws for yourself and bad draws for your opponent. I've lost against combo decks before where I got turn one Chalice because I just couldn't follow up with enough pressure to win before they got rid of it and killed me.

    I think a list worth trying out would be something like:

    3 DRS
    4 Bob
    3 Goyf
    3 Crusher

    4 Bolt
    3 Decay
    3 P. Fire

    3 Lili
    2 Assault

    4 Loam

    3 Diamond
    25 Land

    Pretty retro but it also seems pretty solid. You can run Sylvan Library too if you want to add additional card selection.

  7. #2007
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Lavamancer was best when Merfolk was super everywhere. I think I'd take DRS over it now too, esp. with Punishing fire.

    I love PFire/Grove as a combo, but for some reason I really have trouble with it in this deck. With Lili and Decay being pretty much auto-includes, I rarely want to see Taiga, much less run 3+ of them. Also it sucks with Koth...and Koth is fucking awesome. Makes me just want to jam Crop Rotation in here somewhere...anyone do the math on 70 card decks?

    Edit: Holy shit... I just realized Aggro/Control Battle of Wits Loam should totally be a thing. Let's make it happen people!
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  8. #2008

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Jund Depths meets Lands meets Battle of Wits.

  9. #2009

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Lavamancer was best when Merfolk was super everywhere. I think I'd take DRS over it now too, esp. with Punishing fire.

    I love PFire/Grove as a combo, but for some reason I really have trouble with it in this deck. With Lili and Decay being pretty much auto-includes, I rarely want to see Taiga, much less run 3+ of them.
    Well, with DRS and Mox you have six mana fixers that aren't lands. You can probably make the following mana base:

    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Graven Cairns
    1 Twilight Mire
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bayou
    2 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    2 Wasteland
    4 Cycling lands

    You could swap one Grove for Wasteland if you want. Loam, Bob, and Crusher will dig to a Grove pretty reliably and you don't need more than one.

  10. #2010
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    I *think* two Groves are correct here, except that some of the decks it is very good against will have a ton of grave hate and/or land destruction, especially postboard.

    Deck Grave Land
    RUG No Yes
    D&T PB Yes
    Patriot PB Yes
    Elves No No
    TA Yes Yes

    Since we've got all the mana fixers, I'd much rather have more fetches and duals than filter lands. Also basic Swamp should be Mountain all day. Deck needs Mountains. Koth needs Mountains. I would go with something like:

    2 Grove
    6 Fetch
    4 Cycle
    4 Waste
    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    3 Badlands
    2 Bayou
    1 Taiga
    1 Volrath's Stronghold just because

    I would still rather have another fetch and another Taiga though. I think I actually ran the above configuration at a decent-sized event, but two grindy Jund matchups followed by grindy Junk Maverick just made me want to go home and drink so I took the deck apart.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  11. #2011

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    4 Wasteland is probably at least one too many. You don't really need more than one, and there are plenty of decks that run enough basics to function even if you have Waste + Loam. I think two Wastelands main plus one in the board is fine because then you can bring one in to punish greedy decks but you also don't have a ton of colorless lands clogging up your main in matchups where people have good mana.

    The filter lands are important to make sure you can cast all your spells reliably off of Grove plus another land. If you go down to two Groves, you don't need them as badly as long as you substitute with the appropriate duals. That said, in a deck that wants GBBRRR most of the time, I think you want at least a couple.

    Actually, I might swap the numbers on the list above and run 2 Twilight Mire, 1 Graven Cairns. Alternately, I could see cutting a filter land for another maindeck Wasteland if you really want it - that way you still only have five lands that tap for colorless by themselves.

  12. #2012
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Aggro zombies, do you have a loam list currently?
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  13. #2013

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Haven't played Legacy since...well, since we met at SCG Phoenix in 2012, but I'd start with this:

    3 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Tarmogoyf
    3 Countryside Crusher

    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Punishing Fire

    3 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Seismic Assault

    4 Life from the Loam

    3 Mox Diamond

    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Graven Cairns
    1 Twilight Mire
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bayou
    2 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    2 Wasteland
    2 Forgotten Cave
    1 Barren Moor
    1 Tranquil Thicket

    I'm not sure what the sideboard would look like, but it would probably involve Chalice, Slaughter Games, Dreams, REB, and graveyard hate.

  14. #2014
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Haven't played Legacy since...well, since we met at SCG Phoenix in 2012, but I'd start with this:

    3 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Tarmogoyf
    3 Countryside Crusher

    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Punishing Fire

    3 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Seismic Assault

    4 Life from the Loam

    3 Mox Diamond

    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    2 Graven Cairns
    1 Twilight Mire
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bayou
    2 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    2 Wasteland
    2 Forgotten Cave
    1 Barren Moor
    1 Tranquil Thicket

    I'm not sure what the sideboard would look like, but it would probably involve Chalice, Slaughter Games, Dreams, REB, and graveyard hate.
    No burning wish?
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  15. #2015

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    I tried the Pack Rat package again this weekend. Not much testing though - the one time I played it, first dude Stiffled the ability, then it got L.Bolted. People clearly fear it though!

    I got a Grixis Delver, Elves, Storm and UWR Delver matches. Lost to elves and won the rest.
    Pack rat got bolted against Grixis, and countered against Patriot, lol.
    Elves was tricky. G1 I had it pretty safe with Chalice for 1 (so no glimpse) and then tutored for gaddock - However he played that elf from m15 that destroys artifacts and promptly comboed over -_-. Game two I start well with Chains of mephistopheles and a late Chalcie for 1, however he manages to combo even without any lands at all (with me wastelocking him): he uses the untapping bug+DRS and cast Natural Order once he reaches 4 mana. UGH.

    Also, I ran Thespian's Stage without Dark Depths (still waiting for mine to arrive) and it was cool. I had double Mazes in at least two games, and people promptly wastelanded it all the time they could, just in fear for Dark Depths.

  16. #2016
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos View Post
    I tried the Pack Rat package again this weekend. Not much testing though - the one time I played it, first dude Stiffled the ability, then it got L.Bolted. People clearly fear it though!

    I got a Grixis Delver, Elves, Storm and UWR Delver matches. Lost to elves and won the rest.
    Pack rat got bolted against Grixis, and countered against Patriot, lol.
    Elves was tricky. G1 I had it pretty safe with Chalice for 1 (so no glimpse) and then tutored for gaddock - However he played that elf from m15 that destroys artifacts and promptly comboed over -_-. Game two I start well with Chains of mephistopheles and a late Chalcie for 1, however he manages to combo even without any lands at all (with me wastelocking him): he uses the untapping bug+DRS and cast Natural Order once he reaches 4 mana. UGH.

    Also, I ran Thespian's Stage without Dark Depths (still waiting for mine to arrive) and it was cool. I had double Mazes in at least two games, and people promptly wastelanded it all the time they could, just in fear for Dark Depths.
    So what was your thoughts on Pack Rat? It really seems like it ate a lot of hate to allow us to push through better creatures. Was there ever a time where you dropped pack rat with 5 mana available?

  17. #2017

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    I actually did once! I only played the card two times in the entire thing. Vs Grixis and vs Patriot. Vs patriot I played it quite early - I had a hand with wastelands, 2 fetchlands, KOTR, Pack Rat and Punishing Fire. And i think mox. Played Pack Rat turn one and got FOW. Maybe I should have used Knight to pitch for the fow, but my reasoning was like, drop many lands i nthe GY with rat+mox, then land a huge Reliquary. (it did work this way though in the end, though Pack rat did nothing).

    The one time I played with 5 mana was vs Grixis, which instantly got the ability Stifled, and in his turn, he got bolted lol! Still, love 2-for-1s. So far it's a mainstay for me. i feel it's as feared as a Tarmogoyf in this deck, and when it does land, it's even more fearsome (plus ignore TNN walls).

    Vs combo I sided it out, obviously (in this case vs Elves and Storm)

  18. #2018

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Blah, had a pretty mediocre result today with 4C Loam. 50 people, ended 2-4.
    I had a stock list with dark depths, and instead of Goyf I had a treetop village.
    Matches were UWr Miracles (win), Shardless Bug (loss), Sneak Show (loss), Elves (loss), Goblins (draw-loss), Manaless Dredge (win).
    I lost three games to Blood Moon, considered I faced the card 4 times (g2 and g3 with Miracles, I was able to respond to it with Golgari in the third game), one in each dekc with red, and twice vs miracles.
    In elves I lost to myself - I had chalice for one, but it was a rather boring game, with me having Canonist and Gaddock, and he had Ooze + Shaman, it was a draw go type of game. Later on, he cast EOT Crop Rotation for Gaeas Cradle, removes several creatures of mine, and in his upkeep i remember of Chalice and call the judge - however since its a triggered ability, it was my respons to remember, so we both get warnings. And I lose the game to a craterhoof in his turn. Had he not been able to cast Rotation, my next draw was Reliquary, and Id be able to combo Dark Depths. (thespian was in play already).
    Goblins was like, I lost g1, and g2 went to time due to blood moon (held my game thanks to a singleton Mox), so i lost the game.

    While I have had moderate to great success with the deck recently (6th and 1st on small 12-18 people tournaments recently), and then today this flop, I wonder if I'm always taking the right route in thinking. Say like.. If I'm in need of a certain card, like A.Decay or Liliana.. and I have in my grave Life From The Loam.. what's the correct path? Should I drawdredge/cycledredge until I get punishing fire/maze or draw/cycledraw and see whats on top?

    Also on mulligan.. sometimes I'm on the draw, and I kept hands with stuff like Chalice. Even with mox, most of the time if I'm not on the play, able to cast it turn one, it's generally enough for them to play a big enough menace, like today's Deathrite or Lackey. Should I just have mulliganed into removal?

    What are some lines of play you guys do with 4C Loam in which it might be tricky, and then yo uhave a not apparent solution?

    I definately should do more practicing with it!

  19. #2019
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    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos View Post
    Say like.. If I'm in need of a certain card, like A.Decay or Liliana.. and I have in my grave Life From The Loam.. what's the correct path?!
    There really is no correct answer to this as it's highly dependant on how much mana you have access too, what the board state looks like, what card you are actually looking for and so on.
    While not strictly correct in every situation, if you’re not under a lot of pressure, dredging is preferable over drawing. Because as you say, we have a lot stuff of value that can be dredge, like Punishing/Groove, Maze, Depths/Stage, cycle lands and so on.
    It’s just down to simple math, if you need card x, y or z to deal with the situation at hand, card x is a card you can dredge into while y and z are cards you have to draw. If you dredge you see 3 card while drawing is only one, then take into account how many copies of x, y and z you still have in your library. There are additional factors such a the chance of dredging into a cycle land which will allow you to draw an additional card, but do you have enough mana to actually cast that card after dredging and cycling? If one of the cards is more susceptible to get interrupted, by counters, wasteland or somesuch, that should be taking into account as well.
    It can be mentally taxing to go through these calculations turn after turn and, imho, the only way around this is to just play the deck a lot to acquire mental shortcuts naturally.
    This goes for the deck as a whole and not just the dredging aspect, as the deck is about 50% Lands.dec and 50% midrange (oversimplified yes) and doesn’t have a focused game plan and approach as the majority of other decks have. You have to learn the deck inside out so you can "organically” make decisions on the fly.

    Quote Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos View Post
    Also on mulligan.. sometimes I'm on the draw, and I kept hands with stuff like Chalice. Even with mox, most of the time if I'm not on the play, able to cast it turn one, it's generally enough for them to play a big enough menace, like today's Deathrite or Lackey. Should I just have mulliganed into removal?
    This is a problem that comes up pretty often for me as well and again there is no simple answer. Back to the math, how high probability is it that the opponent has a T1 Deathrite and a T2 Goyf, what are my outs if he does have them? What are the odds of me getting a hand after a mulligan that can deal with it better than the current one? Do I have a hand that can function well even with an active enemy Deathrite in play? How much is this T1 Chalice worth on the draw against my opponents deck.
    Ideally we almost always want some form of removal, but we can’t really take mulligans everytime we don’t. Try and think a bit outside of the box, if you’re facing Goblins, if you have a solid hand but no removal, maybe you can gamble that he doesn’t have removal, so you can sac a fetch and get Dryad Arbor as a blocker for the Lackey.

    Hope this made some sense.

  20. #2020

    Re: [Deck] Aggro Loam

    It totally did! Thanks so much, those were insightful!

    Tomorrow i'm playing a smaller champ, hoping for around 15 people.. and been wondering to try out two basic lands (forest and swamp), after 3 losses to Blood Moon last week.
    One of the difficulties I think I have with Loam, compared to Jund (which I used to play before) is that you don't know the opponent's hand (using discard), so you can only expect Blood Moon if you have actually suffered from it.. it's tricky.. which is why it's led to this reasoning. Thoughts?

    Also trying Pack Rat again maybe.

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