Most seem to be running a base from Niklas Kronbergers BOM 9 winning list. You can find it on TCdecks under aggro Loam.Originally Posted by Dutch253
Thanks
The Punishing Junk list from BOM has eclipsed all others due to its more recent success.
There is also a Naya splash B shell with Burning Wish/Devastating Dreams that had some success in 2013 (here is an example: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1156064 ). Jund lists with Seismic Assault/Terravore shenanigans haven't been successful maybe since 2012. I think some people in this thread were still playing it as recently as last summer. I think both of these shells can still playable.
Heyguys,
Currently testing a chains of mephistopheles version.
Similar BoM list, without lilianas(just can't like them) with 2 chains + 1 realms uncharted(Just seeing how it goes) and with DD+Stage combo.
Have anyone tried chains before? In the small amount of testing it seems like the "Reverse Looting" doesn't harm us and with confidant+loam we dont get out of gas. I still have to find how impactful it is.
Been playing around with courser, the extra one is just killer. He is to slow, I would rather GSZ for a knight at the same cost. And goyf is a better blocker and cheaper.
I've tried to play chains before. Specifically when Treasure cruise was a big deal. The fact that it turns off Sylvan Library was a deal-breaker for me. It also doesn't work well with cycle lands.
IMO the selection from library is pretty important, but that meta was pretty terrible for 2/1s that lost you life so I had swapped bobs for SFM.
In the current meta, what do you want chains against?
The only deck that is a bad matchup that I personally want chains for is Omnitell.
So I have been playing the deck for a bit. How aggressively do you gentlemen mulligan. With such a high land count, sometimes I get do nothing hands that just end up going no where.
Mulliganing without an Unmulliganer can be tough. :(
Most often times though you can draw out of mediocre hands. So, if it's a blind game one, I'll commonly keep what could be considered a weak hand. The only times I really aggressively mulligan is if I know I'm playing against something that can clock me or lock me. Because otherwise the deck can absolutely grind it out.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
What do you mean by unmulliganer?
Also when do you guys typically stop actively dredging? After a cycle land or two hit the grave with some wastes?
In regards on when to dredge vs draw: it depends on the board state. Is there something you need to draw? I don't ever dredge if I need an abrupt decay or knight of the reliquary etc. I generally dredge when my opponent offers no real clock and I can work on filling up the graveyard looking for my cycle lands. I have been playing the 4 color list that Jeff Hoogland was playing last year and have been doing quite well with it. Decks with a lot of hard counters continue to be annoying but those decks are fewer compared to daze/spell pierce.dec which are generally easy to play around. I think this deck is fairly well positioned right now but as always, turn 1-2 combo.dec is scary and I pray my 3x Thalia out of the board and my slaughter games/chalices are enough to fight them off. Any fair deck has real trouble against the 4color list if you are experienced with the deck!
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
I actually tend to mulligan very aggressively, particularly in games 2 and 3 but I also usually wont keep a worse than average 7 game 1. There are plenty of cards in the deck that "unmulligan" you by generating card advantage like chalice, loam etc. If the hand doesn't generate an advantage (a fast loam with wasteland or cycle lands/chalice), see a lot of cards (bob/library) or have a solid game plan (t2 knight) then the average 6 is probably better.
I'd be interested in looking at the kinds of hands people keep and don't keep.
As for actively dredging.. I basically ask myself if I prefer loam to a random card. This is usually true when there is some attractive target in the yard already. Or I am trying to maximize my chance to draw for example a Karakas or a grove quickly. Or if I want more cards in the gy to feed scooze or knight. A large chunk of the time I leave the loam alone.
This is basically what I was going to say. Unless I have some specific reason for dredging Loam I try not to touch it. Dredging Loam for the sake of dredging Loam is just a complete waste of time. Even trying to Wastelock can be a trap. Know what you're trying to do before you Loam.
Also, the unmulliganer is Brainstorm.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
I briefly played a Hoogland-esque list when we were in Cruise bizarro land and am itching to play it again but now Liliana seems too good to quit. By playing Hoogland's version the implication is that Burning Wish/Devastating Dreams is worth playing over Liliana. Do you think this is the case, and if so then why?
Also, can you comment specifically on what you name/how valuable you have found Slaughter Games against different combo decks?
I think liliana is too good to give up right now. I also have experience with both the BW/DD build and the recent vers of the deck made famous at Bazaar of Moxen last year.
I am playing a build similar to dosfera's 75 that he had success with and I have to admit I am having similar success.
As far as Slaughter Games goes, I don't run it in my 75. I feel as a 1-of its not effective, and as a 3-of you are taking away too many SB slots. I run 3 ethersworn canonist in the SB which helps against all forms of combo. I don't own a chains yet, but when I do it would take up the spot of the slaughter games...for right now it is just an extra gaddock teeg.
Many thanks for the info everyone! I will have to keep practicing
Apocalypse, I saw your list. Have you tried running a more GB base version?
Your list looks really interesting.
Thanks. I started with Hoogland's 75 something like 2 years ago. When TNN was hot and widely played the deck became much more poorly positioned. Hoogland started exploring alternatives, and I eventually decided the deck wasn't worth it and kind of started following along. The experiments went in heaver black directions all the way to loam pox.
Eventually Hoogland lost interest in the format (stuff probably happened between that but w.e) I started screwing around on my own. Tried a bunch of stuff including GBx, splashing blue for impulse, writing down and then erasing horrible brainstorm lists, and a GWr list. That list was kind of good (having 7 good turn 1 plays was a game-changer). It lacked abrupt decay and the good sideboard cards so I added those.
I can talk about the matchups and stuff if you want.
Last edited by apocolyps6; 02-19-2015 at 11:49 PM.
I am certainly interested in seeing your decklist and getting your experience on how to approach certain MUs. Last time I played the deck, shortly after TC was printed, I was having lots of trouble against blade decks, especially ones with lots of basics and TNN.
This is my list The SB always lags a bit behind what I'm playing. Currently the Sudden Demise slot is filled with toxic deluges.
The average 3 color midrange matchup is petty favorable. TNN can steal some wins but Knight into Lage races that well G1, and some number of Zealous persecution, golgari charm, Toxic Deluge, or Council's Judgement can come in. Depending on what is in the board.
DRS is the other big concern.
Miracles: notably a good matchup. It is definitely possible to lose, but on average I feel pretty happy sitting down across from the miracles guy.
Elves: This depends on how fast the opponent's hand is g1. Chalice, Pfire, Jitte, and wasteland matter a lot more than your other cards. The board plan is to bring in all -x/-x effects, the Containment Priests and maybe the Ethersworn Canonist. Then you mull aggressively for ~2 pieces of interaction and you should be good.
Sneak & Show: prioritize knight (to show off of Show & Tell) and otherwise Teeg, Karakas, Chalice and mana denial. S&T is pretty bad against us to we need to focus on stopping Sneak attack. To that effect we bring in revokers, Containment Priests, Slaughter Games, Choke Thalias. This is at least 50/50, probably better.
Mono blue combo: not good :/ the best cards are slaughter games, chalice, choke.
Death & Taxes: Terrible. Somehow everything the deck does happens not to be good against D&T. Board out 4 chalices, 2ish moxen, teeg and board in all the removal + board wipes. If you play perfectly you may just out jund them.
Storm decks: All pretty good matchups. Again mull to 5 if you have to but find a fast chalice, teeg or thalia. ANT is probably the worst to play against because they can actually power though what we present in a reasonable time.
Delver: Pretty favorable to insanely favorable. Last time I lost to RUG delver it was because I was literally not allowed to resolve any of my spells. Otherwise the kinds of things we are doing are generally well matched up against what delver is doing.
Burn: Mull to interaction. With Scooze, the SFM package, and chalice you have all the tools to 2-0 this.
12post: If the pilot is smart they will fetch basics, vesuva the basics and then cast a t6 titan and win the game. We have to play the aggro deck here :/
MUD: Wasteland is godly here. Board out chalices for Judgement and Revokers. Postboard mull towards wasteland and ideally a loam. Generally decent.
Fast Graveyard decks: Generally not favorable. you can maybe fight off the ichorids with a batterskull and containment priest helps here but it isnt great.
I have excluded some stuff because I haven't played against (Lands, Shardless) it or because I forgot. I attempted to keep this briefish.
Last edited by apocolyps6; 02-21-2015 at 06:25 PM.
Great description apocolyps6!
Was curious why you run 3 knights?
I find if I ever get to untap with one I usually win the game. Having 4 is great, even with the extra GSZ.
Also why only two loams?
On another note, I always seem to draw my Pfires but never find my groves when I need them most. I was thinking of bumping up the grove count to three and cutting something else, not sure what to cut for it though.
I would not claim that my loam and my knight count are 100% correct. And I'm gonna explain my thoughts but not try to convince anyone that it is right.
I played 3 loam for a very long time, and that is probably the more correct number. I cut the third loam a couple months ago when I was playing 61 cards.
The 4th knight I cut at least half a year ago. Basically I was shaving the cmc of the deck down for less clunky hands. There are still 6 virtual knights in the deck. There are some times when the deck can't make a 3rd land drop. Sometimes due to mulligans, sometimes due to brainstorm-less variance.
Both of these changes are partially influenced by the relative lack of 3 color midrange and delver around here
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