In general any deck with a few basics or a greedy manabase. I personally bring one in against elves since you need to kill cradles asap and they usually fetch out their forests anyways, i'm not sure about ANT still (I would 100% never bring them in against TES) and it's very hard to GQ out Skill and Show since if you are at that stage of the game you're probably winning anways and they can always shuffle back the lands via discarding Emrakul.Originally Posted by rlesko
Like I said I can see keeping in some number on the play. I understand that chalice is amazing against Grixis but I feel like their angles of attack are too varied to make chalice 100% reliable in games where they don't have a mono 1 drop hand. I've run into tons of situations where I am digging for answers but end up drawing chalice where any removal spell or creature would have been good enough. I would much rather be attacking their creature base where I know that I can just can overload on removal rather than rely on chalices sticking.
Most of the games that I lose aren't really to mana stability issues (although that does happen) it's more that my answers line up poorly with their threats e.g. I have a decay and fire against an Angler/TNN or just don't have an answer for a threat. If your opponent sees that they can stifle your mana via grudge wouldn't they be attacking the moxes anyways? You do save on 1 grudge activation by forcing them to hit the chalice but that just feels like more of a blowout.
juzamjimjams wrote a pretty sweet article earlier today.
I don't think I can convince myself to play goyf but there is a lot of solid stuff in there otherwise
Cheers dude!
I play Loams sometimes.
I'd actually consider Kessig Wolf Run in place of Horizon Canopy. This build wants to put down soft disruption (Chalice, Teeg) and then overrun with Goyf, Knights, Vinecrasher etc. Wolf Run can crush a board stall or get through a True Name, Baleful Strix, Pyromancer tokens, Mother, etc. If Wolf Run is too expensive, then that alternate lands that activates for RG(T) to give +1/+0 and trample.
Canopy is a little redundant with the cycle lands.
Skarrg, the Rage Pits.
I don't think that trampling over creatures is a big problem unless you are against mono TNN, you already have punishing fire to clean up most of the board and with that creature base your creatures should be significantly bigger than anything your opponent is playing. I like the manabase being better (although I think I would -1 plains, and +1 dual since you are mostly green based anyways) but my only gripe with the deck is the lack of CA engines now that Confidant/Lili aren't there.
Shifting away from black is perfectly reasonable but I think that you gotta make up for the CA that you are losing. Niklas's Bant list he posted a while he does this by adding Jaces, Cliques, increasing the number of punishing fires and playing some Dacks in the board. I feel like you can easily go up to 4 GSZ here since your creature base is entirely green sunable. The list looks like very neat though, it reminds me a lot of punishing maverick.
The interesting thing I noted about that list was the 2nd Rec Sage in the SB. I'm expecting not just a lot of Blood Moon, but Dragon Stompy at the GP, and would really like to improve that MU. Potentially, I'd remove the one copy of Chandra from the SB, but we'll see.
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Is there anywhere you have vods or any matches to watch you pilot? I tried looking but was unsuccessful
I'm not certain I agree that Canopy is redundant with only a single other cycle land in the deck, it improves the mana of the deck, and has some good application in a list with very few sources of tangible card advantage.
As stated here, the creature base generally outclasses your opponents creatures (outside of TNN) to an extent that just brute forcing and causing chump blocks is usually pretty effective - at least to an extent that the lack of evasion doesn't feel hugely detrimental.
I have definitely not been impressed by the plains, I think I will stick with the two basics for at least the next couple weeks with the amount of Burn/Blood Moons I'm expecting to face.
Increasing GSZ sounds fantastic, I'm honestly just struggling with what to cut.
My list for testing this evening:
Lands: (27)
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures: (13)
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Renegade Rallier
Non-Creature Spells: (20)
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard: (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Trying to get closer to the ground with this list, hoping that cutting big daddy Centaur Vinecrasher pays off.
Still need to try Sanctum Prelate and Blessed Alliance.
I have unfortunately not made it in front of camera yet, if I do so this weekend I'll make sure to post here. I will be putting together the deck on MODO shortly after GP Sydney (as long as funds don't become an issue) and as soon as I can I'll be looking at producing video content.
I play Loams sometimes.
Assuming you are referring to a bant blade that dropped black, do you have a link to that ?
He is referring to a loam shell that Niklas played. It drops black to play blue for Jaces, Cliques, and Flusterstorms.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ek-without-top
Good video here of Bonde playing Loam in the Legacy Premier League with an interesting build of Loam: https://youtu.be/okCZtJz7yTk
4 Fires main
26 lands, no Pit
Library in board
No grave hate
I suspect the last bit is due to expected lists from his opponent, but seems ballsy to me.
Thoughts on his approach?
I definitely think those games are worth watching. As to the list, it is clear that he was prepared for a narrower range of decks and that's reflected by the 75. I'm don't think any of it is a particularly strong endorsement either way.
I've been intrigued by Collective Brutality & Loam for a while and wanted to do something different before I spend the rest of the week playing DRS into TNN, so I brought a junk list to a win a box yesterday and finished top 4. I basically took the first list I found and cut the red for Brutality and some other utility lands. My theory was that the mana is better, which makes more utility lands playable, Cabal Pit is enough for repeatable removal, and we are in a position to get a lot of value off the escalate.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Grim Flayer
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chalice OTV
4 Mox diamond
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Collective Brutality
3 Abrupt Decay
2 GSZ
2 Loam
1 Toxic Deluge
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
2 windswept heath
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 forest
1 swamp
1 cabal pit
1 thespian's stage
1 dark depths
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter
1 maze of ith
1 tranquil thicket
1 barren moor
1 riftstone portal
4 leyline of the void
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 swords to plowshares
2 ethersworn canonist
1 golgari charm
1 reclamation sage
1 sylvan library
Rd 1 storm -- I know he's on storm, he doesn't know what i'm playing and assumes UBx midrange. I lose die roll, we both mull and I keep chalice, brutality, a couple lands, maybe a zenith and find a mox diamond on top. So here's a puzzle: He probes me and then preordains keeping both on top. What would you do on my turn (drawing the mox diamond)? FWIW, I lost the first game then won the next two with chalice into thalia and chalice into marit lage.
Rd 2 turbo depths -- same deal where I know what he's on and he assumes I'm on some blue pile. I was really hoping to knight up my stage when he played his own depths but it didn't line up that way. I wasted/GQ'd him out of a couple games and won the round
Rd 3 infect -- this is where it hurts to not have punishing fire, brutality is bad against Inkmoth Nexus. I got turn 3'd in the first game and then I don't think I boarded right. I brought in all my hatebears, charm, and stp and boarded out all chalices and bobs and I think teeg. my thinking was that unless I have chalice t1 it might not do anything, because they have a window to get down elf, or even if I do they can win with nexus/agent & invigorate/become immense. plus I want the STPs and they are dead under Chalice even if I need them for one of the non-elf creatures. I played a t1 Thalia and felt good but he drew three hierarchs and a blighted agent and I couldn't find STP or brutality or charm.
T8 deathblade -- i think he won game 1 with liliana and jace in play and I just gave up, but in game 2 & 3 the mana denial went a long way and just as he was about to turn the corner in g3 I found an 11/11 knight that he had to STP then I assembled the combo which also ate an STP. as soon as I found a loam for the combo he scooped with me at 40+.
top 4 split from there. I liked how the deck worked but honestly feel like the brutalities could've just been hymns and been just as good. of course, that doesn't remove creatures. that may have been matchup + variance. what really seemed to pay off vs. other times I've played this deck with PF was being able to play the DD combo without it being awkward, having Ghost Quarter, and even having Riftstone Portal to tap depths for mana vs. storm to transform itself. i plan to run this at some side events at vegas, though I am extremely tempted to play it in the main event as well...
This is a tricky one. The lines are either chalice for 1 or chalice for 0 and collective brutality, I guess you can make an argument for getting an arbor/shaman but if we manage to survive a turn without losing our GSZ we just instant win. My opponent gitaxian probing me to see a hand like that and keeping on top with preordain either means that chalice on 1 isn't going to stop them from going off anytime soon or they're getting ready for the long game. I would chalice for 0 and collective brutality (maybe pitching a land to gain 2 life to force to storm 1 more) here but I think that the chalice for 1 play is also defensible here.
What did you end up doing and what did they end up having?
Yeah see below. I think with miracles out of the format it's slightly worse, but I might be wrong. I've been working on a BUGr list getting rid of the white entirely and playing Leovold/TNN/Clique as your 3s but it just feels like something is missing. It is really fun dazing your opponent's force on chalice though.
I can't fault you for that, I don't mind losing to moon but hate losing to burn. I put together your list on MTGO (minus the basic plains) and I ran into the same exact problem for what to cut. I will get back to you when I get the time to test it out some more. >_>
I came to the same conclusion as you and played collective brutality first. He revealed: LED, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseum, and a couple lands.
Now what?
Ehh I'll just post it now. I took Infernal Tutor, then Chalice 0. This was a mistake, but it's because I didn't think about chalice 0 (to nuke the LED in hand) until after I already picked the card.
I think I should've taken the Ad Naus then Chalice 0. I don't remember what he did next turn but the turn after he managed to thresh up for Cabal Rit->Ad Naus and then won by finding a couple rituals into dark petition. (He also ran a bunch of 0 cost artifacts into my Chalice to build storm count).
I guess I'm not sure if my line was bad or he just had a good hand. Infernal without LED in that situation isn't very scary, if he spends his next turn getting another Cabal Ritual he still has to find a way to make red for PIF or find another business spell (which of course was a couple cards down) and in that time I can draw a lot of other disruptive cards.
I wasn't able to GSZ because I used both my lands on turn 1 and the next land I drew was Barren Moor.
I think Chalice on 0 was fine, but agree that the better pick was probably Ad Nauseam, or possibly Cabal Ritual. By taking out AN and eliminating LED, they have to play out their whole hand naturally to use Infernal Tutor to get Past in Flames, then play out their graveyard and IT to fetch Tendrils. That could give you time to get Teeg or a DRS online.
Taking the Cabal Ritual would need them to draw into probably just one Ritual to fire off AN, but be limited on mana with just one Dark Ritual, so they need to draw more lands or wait to draw more rituals. They would need at least:
- 4 lands plus Dark Ritual to kill with AN (make 5 mana, 1 land open, draw into at least 2 more rituals plus either Dark Petition or a bunch of LEDs/Petals plus Tendrils itself)
- 3 Lands, Threshhold, and Cabal Ritual (same as above)
But if he kept Dark Ritual on Top, he could draw it, next turn Infernal for a Dark Ritual, then go off with 3 lands and 2 dark rituals -> AN.
That's my take on it at least, as a non-storm player.
Hey guys,
I just bought back into this deck on modo again, and I was hoping you could provide me with:
1) a "stock" list
2) Common cards to board out whether vs combo/fair/delver/control. Sometimes it's not intuitive whether you will need chalice still or not.
Thanks <3
Crucible dude seems pretty cool. Definitely something to pick up for the maybe-board.
Last edited by apocolyps6; 06-13-2017 at 05:04 PM.
I love it. Probably still as a one-of, and maybe some creature recursion to grab it, but seems like a huge card to me. Supplements the Loam plan without having to give up your drawstep or mana each turn, can be flexible with how many due to GSZ. Gives an alternative to Loam in case it gets Surgicaled.
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