Always interesting to see new approaches to this. Do you think Canonist in the board with the newly freed slots is a good possibility for elves if that's a matchup that you fear? Same with TNN - I'm not seeing much more than the 2 -1/-1 effects SB, is the goal just to race it?Originally Posted by Stuhl
You mention concerns with the manabase, Can we not fit the combo still, especially without red if we're still having such a heavy reliance on black? Especially if we're just racing a bunch of decks now.
Volrath's is definitely my favorite card to see back, I always had concerns with losing creatures and being unable to get them back.
Well, the DD combo might indeed be a thing in there.
I think Elves shouldn't be too bad as Chalice still does a lot here. Canonist and Containment Priest are still VIPs against Elves. Lili wasn't that strong either.
My thoughts to TNN: These decks usually struggle with Thalia. The idea is to fight their mana base while deploying creatures like Bob or KotR which they need to handle.
Also I don't play a lot against TNN these days. More against Angler.
Yeah, but as I said without Lili and PFire the decks shifts little bit and plays differently.
This list is just a first attempt. I just felt like I want to play Maverick again but keep the upside of Mox and Chalice :D.
The reason behind Volraths is also to gain some value out of the Loam engine. Finding PFire always is one part of the reason to dredge. With Volrath you can now find creatures to use by dredging Loam. It is slow often there is a spot to use it. Especially with a KotR.
Maybe Vinecrasher Centaur also has MD potential in a list like this. Maybe in the spot of the 4th Thalia.
That mana base
Cutting the red should make it better... My attempt to contribute.
27 Lands is too much if no DD is around.
Too much colorless around and not enough basics
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath(Maybe split with Marsh Flats)
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah (Still the worst dual in the deck)
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls (Like it!)
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor
In case you want the DD+Stage combo I would advise to either put DD in SB and swap a GQ for the Stage or both GQ for the combo.
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Just has a fun contrast, this is my list from GP Paris:
(Was new to Legacy so did not have a lot of cards. BUG Delver was on high and every1 was using their confidants)
2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Cabal Pit
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
2x Scrubland
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
3x Engineered Plague
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Golgari Charm
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Krosan Grip
1x Massacre
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Toxic Deluge
Yes, Vengeant. Sorry for the delay!
Also, it may be worth checking out this report from a BUG Loam/Lands player. He made top 16, and there are pieces / parts here which we have seen crop up with slightly more frequency in the past weeks. Clearly this is a very different deck than our One True Love, but it has me thinking.
Actually 27 lands including Dryad Arbor is pretty usual. It's 26 mana producing lands without Arbor and we always want to throw something into Chalice. With DD combo it is more like 27 lands + Arbor as DD is not really treated as a land.Cutting the red should make it better... My attempt to contribute.
27 Lands is too much if no DD is around.
Too much colorless around and not enough basics
I think that a BUGr list could potentially be viable, I threw something up a while back but never had the chance to play/test it. I do like his idea of pernicious deed though, that actually seems like a better board wipe than Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge in this build.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wasteland
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
1 Cabal Pit
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Dark Confidant
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lonely Sandbar
2 Life from the Loam
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Barren Moor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Telemin Performance
1 Dack Fayden
2 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
If only Deed didn't blow up our Mox/Chalice/everything :(
If only there was a way you could play around your own board wipes. :(
Those are cards you always play on turn 1-2 though, well before you'd cast or even need a Deed. You have to slow yourself down too much to play around it. Deed just isn't good in this deck.
From nothing came teeth.
Right, no way in hell am I gonna not play some of the best cards in the deck just in case I draw a board wipe. The solution is either to not play a card that hurts you more than most decks, or to play nic fit instead. I guess I could see it out of the board for the GBx midrange mirror, but our curve makes it not all that effective.
If you notice, Baxter dropped his moxen to play deed.
I get it, chalice and mox diamond are important cards in this deck and you probably don't want to be destroying your expensive cardboard when you play. I'm not saying that the deed is 100% a replacement for deluge or charm, just that it has the potential to be way better. Just looking at the DTB section the only matchups where I can see deed being worse is against D&T (since it can get revokered), elves (you obviously want chalice on 1 and a board wipe here) and UR Delver/Grixis Delver (You probably don't want to be deluging at all in the UR matchup and charm is pretty useless unless they're playing pyromancer). I still don't like chalice in the grixis delver matchup but you probably don't want to be losing chalice. Past those decks what are other decks where you want both Chalice and Deed? Chalice comes out in nearly every BUG matchup and (imo) against the 4c Control variants/Deathblade/Bant/Etc. It's okay to lose a mox diamond at the stages of the game where deed really comes into play, that's kind of the point of playing board wipes. Golgari Charm kills Dryad Arbor and Bob and Toxic Deluge has the potential to kill most of the creatures in the deck, you still play those right?
I don't know his thought process but I don't think that is the reason that he dropped his moxen. Just looking at his results with the deck for the last couple of years it seems more like he realized that Mox Diamond and Brainstorm are pretty bad in the same deck and swapped out the diamonds for DRS and saw that deck where loam can be either your primary or backup strategy deed seemed like a good board wipe. I'm sure you can ask any Nic Fit player, it's not that hard to hold threats in your hand or only deed for 1-2 to wipe your opponent's board but not yours.
Having blue and counterspells allows you to not play chalice+mox. If you aren't playing blue, you need the Chalice+mox to gain momentum.
I think we really should not be comparing the way that Deed works in Nic Fit to the way it will work here. That whole deck is designed to work with deed. Most of their threats dodge it with their CMC, and veterans are designed to be sacrifices. The deck can also easily play and pop it in the same turn. Meanwhile, we will probably have to play it out one turn and then hope to dodge decay to use it the turn after. How often do you have a spare 6 mana? I think Leo/TNN are big enough actors that we want to be considering them when estimating the activation on Deed.
What non-creatures are we trying to blow up? I mean, there are lots, but what do you have in mind? I'm not really seeing an urgent need for that kind of stuff.
I usually take out bobs in the (non-midrange) deluge matchups, so I don't often hit my own creatures with it.
You also seem to not think chalice is all that well positioned right now. That may be true, but if we agree on that the deck is gonna have to change in some pretty big ways. BUGLands is not a bad way to go if chalice becomes not worth maining
Not sure why I need to keep on spoonfeeding the aggro loam master.
The takeaway from the Nic Fit example is that it's okay to exchange a few of your threats for most of theirs. Yes we don't have the ability to abuse explorer like Nic Fit does but at the same time that deck is usually playing some number of creatures that they're losing as well whether it is DRS, Hatebears or commonly played cards like Leovold/SFM. You shouldn't be overcommitting to the board and then deeding it all away, that's just dumb. You also don't have to pop it immediately which can force your opponents to play around it by slowrolling their threats allowing you to deal with them easier. I don't quite understand taking out bobs but you do you.
So where did I say it's primarily for noncreatures? Just off the top of my head: aether vial, equipment i.e. swords, jitte and batterskull if you have the mana and cards like sylvan library.
Chalice is chalice, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. I think it's bad when I play against mono decks that don't care about it and it's good when I play against decks where it stops half of their deck.
The beauty of Deluge is that you only hit your non Knight creatures. KotR is always big enough. Also it is a reliable spell for 3cmc. Against Elves waiting one more turn to crack Deed micht be crucial.
Overall I don't like Deed in this deck. Imo Deluge is still the best board wipe for the low on creatures mana base.
I never had serious issues with non creature spells. If at all it's Jace. And Deed does nothing here.
By the way: The Thalia list I posted earlier doesn't seem to be a thing :D I was in the mood. However, it doesn't work outIt's just not a Thalia MD deck.
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If killing your own stuff was that big a deal, we would play Fire Covenant.
I tested a junk list very similar to maharis's last night to good results against Elves, Infect, and a UB Death's Shadow list. Mana feels great. Brutality not being an instant was relevant a few times, but the deck ran so much smoother that I didn't mind. Cabal Pit is a house.
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With the new Crucible on a stick, plus our own Loams and Knights which love lands in the yard, what about sideboard Impending Disasters for certain matchups?
A lot of these Leovold and Snapcaster decks are getting very mana hungry.
That seems pretty janky, you could just play Thalia and punish both fair and unfair decks.
Last edited by CptHaddock; 06-28-2017 at 10:51 AM.
If the card did not trigger on your upkeep, it might be worth talking about. Also, if the opponent is okay with 3 lands in play the card becomes pretty awful. Rancid Earth is kind of neat in that it can blow up a land and kill X/1s, but its also not worth a sideboard slot.
That being said playing actual Armageddon is not the worst idea if the meta calls for it. Mox Diamond, Knight, and playing 27+ lands make the effect less symmetrical.
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