[Deck] Aggro Loam

[lavafrogg]

So for a list that is not running red what is a suitable replacement? I think you would need to main sweepers such as deluge or deed or play more/larger creatures to be able to gum up the ground.

@haddock how is the naya list sacrificing the combo matchup and TNN? The best hatebears are white and judgement handles TNN quite well. You lose -1/-1 effects which I understand but I wouldn't say that the TNN and combo matchups are worse than 4c.

I also don't understand why canopy is bad in loam. Playing it every turn seems fine and you walkways need the option to draw cards with KotR.

The DnT matchup is going to be very difficult sans PFire and maze of ith. Knight isn't enough. Also, @lucky, your statements are written wonky and hard to interpret. Can you clarify your point about DnT?

In your Leovold point, red sweepers are a thing and Naya has Judgement to kill it straight up.

[CptHaddock]

@haddock how is the naya list sacrificing the combo matchup and TNN? The best hatebears are white and judgement handles TNN quite well. You lose -1/-1 effects which I understand but I wouldn't say that the TNN and combo matchups are worse than 4c.

I also don't understand why canopy is bad in loam. Playing it every turn seems fine and you walkways need the option to draw cards with KotR.

The DnT matchup is going to be very difficult sans PFire and maze of ith. Knight isn't enough. Also, @lucky, your statements are written wonky and hard to interpret. Can you clarify your point about DnT?

In your Leovold point, red sweepers are a thing and Naya has Judgement to kill it straight up.

Not denying that both are kind of iffy against combo unless you manage to hide behind a chalice or teeg successfully. With the black versions of the deck you can randomly hide behind a chalice and hopefully grind them out with Liliana, also postboard you get targeted discard. But yeah postboard you get the same hatebears. I don't think that canopy is bad in loam, it's probably better with the new crucible on a creature. My problem with the card is that it takes up a land drop which is pretty important in this deck although it's ability to fix your mana might make up for it.

I don't think it really matters what version you play or what you are playing, the core of the deck is so strong that you can build around the playstyle you enjoy. You're basically a chalice deck that can keep up CA with Fires, Libraries, Loam, Walkers and obviously GSZ.

[lavafrogg]

Not denying that both are kind of iffy against combo unless you manage to hide behind a chalice or teeg successfully. With the black versions of the deck you can randomly hide behind a chalice and hopefully grind them out with Liliana, also postboard you get targeted discard. But yeah postboard you get the same hatebears. I don't think that canopy is bad in loam, it's probably better with the new crucible on a creature. My problem with the card is that it takes up a land drop which is pretty important in this deck although it's ability to fix your mana might make up for it.

I don't think it really matters what version you play or what you are playing, the core of the deck is so strong that you can build around the playstyle you enjoy. You're basically a chalice deck that can keep up CA with Fires, Libraries, Loam, Walkers and obviously GSZ.

My issue with discard and chalice is that chalice should give the opponent a ton of cards to discard anyways... chalice kind of nullifies Liliana's -1 if you are doing it right. Obviously we all think that hate bears plus chalice are how we beat combo decks, and no one has suggested to cut white. Turn 1 hate bear/chalice is about the best we can hope to do against the unfair decks of the world.

Canopy is really good with the new Excavator, which imho is the best late game creature in the deck, and has always been a Knight target in Maverick and Rock decks, it should be more so in a loam deck. You don't have to sacrifice the canopy when you need the mana, but it is 1 card that can draw you a bunch of cards over the course of the game.

@lucky how much have you played loam decks? Some of your basic statements seem a bit green.

apocolyps6 yeah, I can't see lilliana and her mana cost being worst it in most instances and stated above, I don't think she plays well with Chalice. Your list on your link has zero ways to kill big creatures that cost more than 3, is that a meta call or do you just ignore fore the most part. Why no containment priest in the board or graveyard hate in the board?

[luckypenny]

What do you mean, "green?"

To be honest, I just made my own list without the prior knowledge of Aggro Loam 1.5 years ago. I have been playing Manaless Dredge for 4 years, so I naturally just played legacy with my head in the ground only paying attention to GY cards. Lol

I got annoyed with the GY hate, so decided to test out Loams because I liked the CA and dredging mechanic. I used my experience of playing against green decks to create a BG Flayer/Loam deck with Chokes in the main. Naturally, a lot of my cards were similar to Aggro Loam: GSZ, Ooze, Decays. Eventually people just told me about how my deck was similar to Aggro Loam. I played more and more, and changed the deck the more times I got beat. Eventually I adapted the list to a 3c shell of Aggro Loam bc I realized how much better DC was than Flayer and that Knight was thug. But I never officially took in red bc I think it stretches the manabase too thin. I tested, but I found out very quickly how bad Fire was against TNN, Leo, Tombstalker, and Gris.

Perhaps I am in the wrong thread. I like Knight and Chalice and DCs. My focus is not Loam, as I believe Knight is the engine to 'my' deck. I use Loam to smooth out my land drops from all the Mox abuse, to recycle lands that Knight fetches and Lili pitches, and to Waste/Ghostlock with said cards. I liked the Chalice/Teeg lock, as I logged in about 50+ hours against pre-Top ban Miracles piloted by a fantastic ex-pro player. Still can't touch him. Rage/tilt. Some of his suggestions are originally his, like Towers instead of Mazes.

I just thought my deck was a version of Aggro Loam. My apologies.

[apocolyps6]

@lavafrogg

For the most part, I match threats with threats. So I don't need to have an answer for everything. A resolved knight with the stage-depths combo beats just about any creature. I am thinking of cutting the third pfire for an edict or something tho.

About Containment Priest and grave hate in general.. I'm trying out an experimental sideboard plan against those decks. The basic problem is grave hate is super expensive in terms of SB slots and we don't actually get much use out of it. I'm seeing if I can use a combination of discard and taxing effects to slow down those decks until I can get more interaction online. Unfortunately i haven't been able to get much solid testing since I committed to the idea, so I can't tell you if it turned out well or not.

@Lucky

That describes 4C Loam pretty well. Naturally with such a difference from the stock list people will have questions.

[luckypenny]

So for a list that is not running red what is a suitable replacement? I think you would need to main sweepers such as deluge or deed or play more/larger creatures to be able to gum up the ground.

@haddock how is the naya list sacrificing the combo matchup and TNN? The best hatebears are white and judgement handles TNN quite well. You lose -1/-1 effects which I understand but I wouldn't say that the TNN and combo matchups are worse than 4c.

I also don't understand why canopy is bad in loam. Playing it every turn seems fine and you walkways need the option to draw cards with KotR.

The DnT matchup is going to be very difficult sans PFire and maze of ith. Knight isn't enough. Also, @lucky, your statements are written wonky and hard to interpret. Can you clarify your point about DnT?

In your Leovold point, red sweepers are a thing and Naya has Judgement to kill it straight up.

That is funny, as I am a linguistics major. I will write less colloquially from now on. After long days, I just get lazy. Sorry.

As I wrote before this post, I guess I am somewhat "green" regarding the experience playing with "Aggro Loam." I have a different philosophy when piloting my deck. I respect three concepts in legacy: Brainstorm/fetch combo, Wasteland/Blood Moon, and Graveyards. I built my list and stole ideas with these concepts in mind to try and create a non-blue competitive deck. I pilot Chalice with three colors running Loam, which can answer GY strategies. I call it petting three cats with one hand.

Deed? As in Pernicious? I think our Moxes, Chalices, and Sylvan Libraries are too valuable to run Deed. I did have Deluge in my main list at some point in the past month. I like to test a lot of different cards, so my list is always changing.

Yes, I think Canopy might be good with Excavator and to save Loam in dire situations. I like that Knight can find it as well.

In my list, Knight can answer most of what DnT plays. And it is, naturally, a bigger threat than anything they play without equipment attached. Those are my reasons why Knight is enough by itself to handle DnT.

Leovold is a 3/3, and I don't know of a common SB red sweeper that 4c Loam uses to deal with him economically. Yes, I use Council's Judgment in my list to deal with Leovold like your Naya list. My argument is about the Pfires in 4c Loam decks.

[lavafrogg]

What do you mean, "green?"

To be honest, I just made my own list without the prior knowledge of Aggro Loam 1.5 years ago. I have been playing Manaless Dredge for 4 years, so I naturally just played legacy with my head in the ground only paying attention to GY cards. Lol

I got annoyed with the GY hate, so decided to test out Loams because I liked the CA and dredging mechanic. I used my experience of playing against green decks to create a BG Flayer/Loam deck with Chokes in the main. Naturally, a lot of my cards were similar to Aggro Loam: GSZ, Ooze, Decays. Eventually people just told me about how my deck was similar to Aggro Loam. I played more and more, and changed the deck the more times I got beat. Eventually I adapted the list to a 3c shell of Aggro Loam bc I realized how much better DC was than Flayer and that Knight was thug. But I never officially took in red bc I think it stretches the manabase too thin. I tested, but I found out very quickly how bad Fire was against TNN, Leo, Tombstalker, and Gris.

Perhaps I am in the wrong thread. I like Knight and Chalice and DCs. My focus is not Loam, as I believe Knight is the engine to 'my' deck. I use Loam to smooth out my land drops from all the Mox abuse, to recycle lands that Knight fetches and Lili pitches, and to Waste/Ghostlock with said cards. I liked the Chalice/Teeg lock, as I logged in about 50+ hours against pre-Top ban Miracles piloted by a fantastic ex-pro player. Still can't touch him. Rage/tilt. Some of his suggestions are originally his, like Towers instead of Mazes.

I just thought my deck was a version of Aggro Loam. My apologies.

No need to apologize, I am just having a hard time judging your tone from your style of writing. I am a pretty straightforward typer and this wouldn't be the first time I was reading someones posts incorrectly.

Your list is just off of standard and I am having a hard time justifying card choices and me reading you saying things like "pro's looked at this list" cause me to read your posts in a condescending tone, which is completely my fault.

"The ultimate weenie deck is D&T, and I feel Knight naturally beats them. We also have answers to Vials and their mana denial plan. Lookin salty when they drop a recruiter that buddies a Prelate who likes fishing for two CC? Ugly times back then. Lol"

This statement is what made me think that you were new with Loam strategies in general, hence the "green" statement. DnT has never really been an amazing matchup for Loam decks, we don't really like our mana messed with and knight is really the only bigger card we have as they can get weenies plus equipment. Post board they get to play RiP which is never good for us as our best creature is essentially neutered.

From the "hole" in your list before the utility land choices and the synergy with loam is the lack of Punishing Fire, which I am open to suggestions as to why we shouldn't play and I would like to continue to discuss. Even against TNN and LEO the punishing fire keeps DRS and Strix clear so you can Lilliana away the offending creatures. The cards in your list don't actually deal with the issues you are bringing up as 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 CJ, 1 Golgari Charm and 2 Liliana does not handle multiple creatures or numerous small creatures in the same way that Fires can.

I can understand if you are just not interested in the swarm matchups but you really only have 3 decays to kill a protected delver. As I said before I would love to be able to replace Fires, I just am not sure with what.

If you are interested in less loams and tons of Knights you should check out sdematts work in the Junk/Rock thread. They do awesome things in there.

edit: with BGW I also have a hard time playing chalice over discard, but could we do anything with Collective Brutality?

[lavafrogg]

This is a double post but I found this list a few pages back and made some modifications to fit our current conversation.

Creatures:12
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ranumap Excavator
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells:25
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam

4 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Maelstrom Pulse/CJ

Lands:24
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Ghost Quarter

Brutality/Pulse might be enough to carry into Liliana... I don't think uncounterable is as important as counterbalance is no longer a thing.

[luckypenny]

Actually, the amazing thing about Brutality is its CA when used in a deck that abuses Loam. Too bad Leovold crushes this card.

[Shivaess]

I run a traditional list with Lili and DD combo and very rarely if ever have mana color issues. I'm surprised people don't pressure our moxen more.

I have been flirting with the idea of running volrath's stronghold which might get me to cut the 3rd lili but I'm still adjusting to the snek and canopy.

[edit] oh god I needed to update this thread before replying.

[CptHaddock]

I run a traditional list with Lili and DD combo and very rarely if ever have mana color issues. I'm surprised people don't pressure our moxen more.

I have been flirting with the idea of running volrath's stronghold which might get me to cut the 3rd lili but I'm still adjusting to the snek and canopy.

[edit] oh god I needed to update this thread before replying.

People often overexaggerate the manabase issues with Lili and Dark Depths. If you are running Tabernacle and Maze you're basically running the same amount of nonmana/noncolored producing sources. There are quite a few slots in this deck for utility lands, unfortunately you can't run them all.

[lavafrogg]

Actually, the amazing thing about Brutality is its CA when used in a deck that abuses Loam. Too bad Leovold crushes this card.

The goal would be to keep the board clear for sacrifice effects. In the case of leovold... he is most likely going to cantrip but if you can keep an active Lilly than the CA shouldn't be that bad.

Brutality can also regain the CA when you kill a DRS and take an abrupt decay with a escalated land.

In general.... Leovold is pretty good against most decks in legacy. Sweepersand Judgements are about the only way to deal with him without giving up the draw.

[luckypenny]

Here is the list I am testing:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confident
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Collective Brutality
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge

*Two empty flex slots

2 Containment Priest
1 Absolute Law
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[lavafrogg]

Here is the list I am testing:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confident
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Collective Brutality
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Toxic Deluge

*Two empty flex slots

2 Containment Priest
1 Absolute Law
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Love the toxic deluges, for the last 2 slots would you go decay/pulse or are you not looking for removal?

[luckypenny]

Love the toxic deluges, for the last 2 slots would you go decay/pulse or are you not looking for removal?

I was thinking of a DRS and another GSZ, or another Liliana and Mayor. Or I might test those Spyglasses out.

[lavafrogg]

I was thinking of a DRS and another GSZ, or another Liliana and Mayor. Or I might test those Spyglasses out.

Like GSZ, DRS not so much.

What is the real value in the spy glasses? If you also ran Cabal Therapy I would see value, but using them as a stifle you have to pay for in advance seems strange. Pitching needle is not a mandatory card by any means...

[luckypenny]

Like GSZ, DRS not so much.

What is the real value in the spy glasses? If you also ran Cabal Therapy I would see value, but using them as a stifle you have to pay for in advance seems strange. Pitching needle is not a mandatory card by any means...

I most likely won't run spyglasses, as it is just a card I like to think about. I like DRS though because I can get him through GSZ with a Chalice out.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I'm thinking of picking up the last couple pieces I need for this deck, but I just wanted to check to see how necessary Tabernacle is for it's success because that's one thing I definitely can't get right now.

[luckypenny]

I'm thinking of picking up the last couple pieces I need for this deck, but I just wanted to check to see how necessary Tabernacle is for it's success because that's one thing I definitely can't get right now.

Well, some don't use it at all. It can be a house against Eldrazi, but that MU was already in Loam's favor because of Knight and Wastes. Consider Tabernacle as a nice layer of icing on top of a sound piece of pie. I plan to run it in the board, as I hate maindecking manaless land.

[dmkay]

How realistic is it to be able to cash out from MTGO? I'm thinking about buying in to play leagues, but how likely is it that I can essentially sell/cash out my collection when I no longer want to play? Anyone have any experience w/ that? Is it generally trade out all your cards for tickets (or whatever it is these days) and sell those on a marketplace?