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Thread: [Deck] Aggro Loam

  1. #41
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Hey guys, I took this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32617 and cut the terravore for 2 vampire hexmage and cut a cycling land and a fetch for 2 dark depths and started to test it. Seems to be working out really well by being able to kill planeswalkers and giving you inevitability when it comes to the late game and you are throwing a 20/20 down until they deal with it. Also, fanning a god hand by making a 20/20 on turn 1 or 2 isnt too bad either. Just a little food for thought.

  2. #42

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by ninja_attack View Post
    Hey guys, I took this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32617 and cut the terravore for 2 vampire hexmage and cut a cycling land and a fetch for 2 dark depths and started to test it. Seems to be working out really well by being able to kill planeswalkers and giving you inevitability when it comes to the late game and you are throwing a 20/20 down until they deal with it. Also, fanning a god hand by making a 20/20 on turn 1 or 2 isnt too bad either. Just a little food for thought.
    Sounds fun but having 2 more lands in the deck that wont give you mana sounds dangerous early game and lets not forget that almost every Aggro Loam deck runs 4 Wasteland and 1 Volrath Stronghold which are colorless. This means you create a deck with 7 of its 25-27 lands that will not create a color mana without Mox Diamond help. What this means is: If its in your opening hand and you need the mana source, Dark Depths is a bad card to have. If you pitch it with Mox diamond you get the mana you need however now you cant Hexmage it for an early game surprise and if you play the Hexmage without Depths in play she will eat removal faster than you can blink. If you loam Depths back to your hand because of Mox Diamonding it, you still have to worry about you opponent coutnering or stifling the Hexmage ability. Antoher drawback that comes to mind is she is a 2cc (BB). Not as easy to cast as the Confidant's 1B who's B usually comes from your Mox as you want your lands to be able to create R or G most of the time to cast the Crusher's 1RR or Loam.

    With all that being said. Late game I can see Depths as a huge burden on your opponent. I am just not sure about it yet, though I will say I like your "thinking outside of the box" you've demonstraighted. To add to the think tank I think perhaps if 1 Depths and 3 Hexmage SB would not be too terrible if you play Kight of the Reliquary x4 Main board as I do. This will alow you to fetch the Depths and create the 20/20 more efficiently while putting these in the Sideboard will undoubtably allow you to create a more surprise factor games 2-3 should the matchup allow for you to fully utilize the combat tricks or Knight as well as know that your Hexmages will be able to stick long enough for her to do her job.

  3. #43

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    @kortero: Congrats on the finish! Making Day 2 of the largest Magic tournament ever is nothing to sneeze at, and a final record of 7-4-1 is still quite good considering how many people didn't even make it that far.

    As for the list...I don't know. It seems decent, and I can definitely see why Knight is attractive, but I'm not sure about the mana. I think I would trim a Wasteland or two for more basics, but that's just me. I'm not sure the deck has a high enough creature density to make Jitte matter, or what it would do for you in creature matchups that can be rough (Merfolk, for example, when they start vomiting guys all over the place, or have counters at awkward times). I agree on seven cycling lands, though. I've been testing Raging Ravine lately.

    @Areys: I'd start by cutting Burning Wish for a fourth Loam and two Maelstrom Pulse (going back down to 60 cards that way). Burning Wish is actually quite bad, mostly because it never resolves against blue and is far to slow in the matchups where counters aren't an issue (Zoo, combo, etc). I also wouldn't run Devastating Dreams, as that card isn't very good anymore either; while it can sweep well against aggro decks, there are a lot of conditions that need to be met in order for it to not screw you over. I've since moved away from Dreams in my list as I've been unhappy with it, and briefly tried Firespouts main as replacements.

    Seismic Assault is a total bomb and should probably be in the deck as a three-of.

    EDIT: @ Depths combo: Seems poor without Urborg. You already have a late-game bomb in the form of active Seismic Assault, and with those numbers you're unlikely to draw your combo pieces in the midgame.

  4. #44

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Thanks Aggro_zombies!

    I'll try to test some games against different kinds of decks, especially ones with Wasteland and/or Stifles so I can get a clear opinion whether more basics are needed or not. As I said, the only times I've been colorscrewed before (when I ran 2 mountains and 1 forest) have been when I, myself have made the mistake of not bringing any fetchlands back with Loam and left myself with zero green mana after a wasteland.

    Sideboard definately needs more testing. I've been pondering about removing the 4th Firespout so my sideplan would be +3 Firespout +1 Jitte against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo (-4 Chalice, -4 Chalice and -4 Dark Confidant). I'm also not sure if I want to keep the third Krosan Grip on the side since I've rarely, pretty much never, wanted more than 2 Grips in any matchup. I will try out one Worm Harvest against more controllish lists like Supreme Blue. I'll try to get some testing with Jitte as well to see if it really has any impact on any matchups.

    I went 2-1 matches (1-2, 2-0 and 2-0) against a pretty good player with a good Pro Bant list yesterday. Not the easiest matchup because of thy Progenitals, but Chalice for 1 breaks his balls. I sided couple of Grips and a couple of Teegs, and it felt pretty good.

    EDIT:

    I'll keep Firespouts as four-off and the Jitte as an additional bonus in some aggro matchups. 3rd Krosan Grip becomes Worm Harvest leaving the SB as:

    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Firespout
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Krosan Grip
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Worm Harvest

  5. #45
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Do any of you guys have the loam deck that made day 2 with maindeck pridemages and lightning bolt? Nikitin loam or smt I thought it was called.

  6. #46
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Its a well known contender in Russia, the list drops Black in favor of white for KOTR and Qasali, it runs a solid removal suite of 4xbolt and 4xsword (chalices are in S/B), also there's top to make the deck as much consistent as it can be. He finished 17th at the GP

  7. #47
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Can you PM me a link or list? thnx.

  8. #48
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Waikiki View Post
    Can you PM me a link or list? thnx.
    I would also like to see the list. PM or link please!

  9. #49
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I only have a pre-qasali list (he played it before GP), so here it is:

    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Windswept Heath
    4 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    1 Savannah
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest
    1 Horizon Canopy
    4 Forgotten Cave
    2 Tranquil Thicket
    4 Wasteland
    1 Kor Haven

    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Kitchen Finks
    4 Knight of the Reliquary

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Life From the Loam
    3 Devastating Dreams
    2 Seismic Assault
    3 Sensei’s Divining Top
    4 Mox Diamond

    Afaik, Finks had become the Qasalis

  10. #50

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I am all for white in aggro loam (I run white as well). That said I do not think that running 10 creatures is enough. I believe that Crusher is extremely valuable and should not be cut lightly.

    In my list I actually run 4 colors. Red and Green for the obvious Aggro Loam tools and Black for Leyline of the Void (Sideboard) as well as Dark Confidant and Maelstrom Pulse (Mainboard), then playing white for Gaddock Teeg (Side) and Knight of the Reliquary (Main). The rest is fairly straightforward.

    Is it possibly that his meta didn't have a real need for Chalice to mainboard and that is why he chose to run a less traditional list?

  11. #51
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinefol View Post
    I only have a pre-qasali list (he played it before GP), so here it is:

    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Arid Mesa
    1 Windswept Heath
    4 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    1 Savannah
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest
    1 Horizon Canopy
    4 Forgotten Cave
    2 Tranquil Thicket
    4 Wasteland
    1 Kor Haven

    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Kitchen Finks
    4 Knight of the Reliquary

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Life From the Loam
    3 Devastating Dreams
    2 Seismic Assault
    3 Sensei’s Divining Top
    4 Mox Diamond

    Afaik, Finks had become the Qasalis
    Went for lunch with him. He now plays -2 Finks -1 Lightning Bolt +3 Qasali Pridemage. I know that at least in Germany, people playing Nikitin Loam (I know of only one, for that matter) avoided getting the list published before the GP but with Dimitry's great finish in Madrid it seems one can no longer hold back on it.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  12. #52

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Looking at that list reminds me of the first time I saw an Aggro Loam list - what is this pile of rubbish? I just couldn't figure out why the deck works so well. After playing with Aggro Loam for a while the "pieces just came together" and now it's one of my favorite decks in Legacy.

    Maybe I need to test that "Nikitin Loam" as well before judging it as, well, pile of rubbish, but I just can't think of a good enough reason to cut Dark Confidants AND Chalice of the Voids from the maindeck. :>

  13. #53

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I have prolly logged about 200 games with CAL and Aggro Loam and I can, without a doubt, say that Chalice is trully replaceable if you build the deck well. As for Confidant... He can be replaced but you would need to find a REALLY odd metagame that allows for the Loam engine to replace him. I have never really seen such a metagame, but in games that have went long and I never cast a Confidant, Loam has functioned as a replacement.

    I doubt it needs restating but... As with any deck knowing the meta game can do wonders for specific decks.

  14. #54
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    The problem with confidant, is that it doesn't let you run Devastating Dreams as freely, as it should be in such a deck. SDT on other hand, does just fine, letting you dredge/draw when you really need to. DD > meta.

    I don't think Chalice is necessary maindeck unless your meta is all combo + ichorid. It finely resides in s/b and is only boarded in for these matches.

  15. #55

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I don't see chalice as a maindeck answer for combo or ichorid. It's so good against any deck packing swords and/or paths, and I just wonder how that nikitin loam can keep threats (8+qasalis) on the battlefield without any protection. Chalice does plenty of other things against different decks, but that has been covered perfectly well in the primer or some other post.

    Devastating Dreams seems also too risky against "blue opponents" that I wouldn't dare to maindeck it anymore.

    I can see some of the benefits on the nikitin loam in an aggro heavy metagame featuring zoo, gobbs and so on, but as it doesn't really make any of the harder matchups (for me, at least) such as Pro Bant any easier, I'd rather stick to the more traditional lists.

  16. #56

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I personally think his list was designed for a blue light meta... That is the only conclusion I can come to... That or he got extremely lucky all day. It seems like his deck took all the 60/40 matches and he shoved them to like 70-30. An ok idea if you know you will play nothing but good matchups all day. It never hurts to hedge the bets if you know the outcome.

  17. #57
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    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Well, w/e, its not like I'm going to defend the list or the deck I don't even play. But it works, believe it or not. And is actually quite good against blue.

  18. #58

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    @tinefol: I think you misunderstood me. I was not knocking the deck at all. I was saying that he made a meta call and it paid off for him. That was all I meant. If he would have been forced to play reanimator and combo instead of a solid number of aggro-esq decks he would have done worse.

    Another benefit of chalice I noticed is the power it has built in against Reanimator. A chalice at 1 is nearly GG surprisingly (depending on the build). That one play cuts off ponder, brainstorm, reanimate, entomb, spell pierce. Mystical tutor, and Thoughtseize/Duress... AKA you knock out 2upwards of 22-28 cards. Sadly Ravens crime does not boast nearly as awesome card power in that matchup. I may likely switch back to Chalice.

  19. #59

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by nodahero View Post
    @tinefol: I think you misunderstood me. I was not knocking the deck at all. I was saying that he made a meta call and it paid off for him. That was all I meant. If he would have been forced to play reanimator and combo instead of a solid number of aggro-esq decks he would have done worse.

    Another benefit of chalice I noticed is the power it has built in against Reanimator. A chalice at 1 is nearly GG surprisingly (depending on the build). That one play cuts off ponder, brainstorm, reanimate, entomb, spell pierce. Mystical tutor, and Thoughtseize/Duress... AKA you knock out 2upwards of 22-28 cards. Sadly Ravens crime does not boast nearly as awesome card power in that matchup. I may likely switch back to Chalice.
    It only does this on the play and only if you get it turn one. The main issue with Chalice is that it gets exponentially worse the longer you have to wait to play it. Let's assume a realistic scenario: you're on the play in game one against Reanimator (but you don't know this). You draw Chalice but no Diamond, and your hand is otherwise really good, so you keep rather than mulliganing into oblivion trying to find it. You go land, go. Your opponent goes land, Entomb, find Iona, go. Chalice at one is suddenly a lot worse.

    Or your opponent goes land, Vial, go.

    Or your opponent goes land, Top, go.

    Point is, Chalice is great on turn one, mediocre on turn two, and downright bad afterwards. I've been thinking of moving it to the board the more I test. Then again, I've only stuck Chalice at one on turn one eleven times (yes, I've counted) since I picked this deck up over a year ago, so maybe my opinion of it is colored. It really sucks to have your Chalice totally invalidated just because you couldn't get it on turn one.

    EDIT: Even if your opponent doesn't do these things, and just goes [Island of some sort], go, you're opening yourself up to Daze and Spell Pierce in addition to Force of Will for your big turn-two play. He can also Brainstorm to find the Daze or the Force. Generally, not getting Chalice on turn one against blue means you won't get it at all on turn two - for me, it's been rarer to resolve one than to have it countered against a blue opponent. And there's a lot of blue out there right now.

    EDIT 2: Let me elaborate on the Reanimator example. Chalice is still good in this scenario IF your opponent does not have and a counter and IF his plan was to use Reanimate. If he has Exhume, you're still dead. If he has a counter, you're still dead. If he gets Show and Tell, you're dead (most likely). Whatever ends up happening, the damage was already done by the time you got Chalice out and you're now racing your opponent's topdecks. Even assuming you lay a land and Crusher on turn three, you're still looking at probably about three to four more turns before you can kill the opponent (if you also get a Loam active and another guy going too). Show and Tell for Robot Akroma screws you over so hard it hurts, as does Show and Tell for Inkwell Leviathan (though less so). And this sets aside the fact that your opponent will most likely lay a land and either Duress/Thoughtseize you or pass, then Entomb EOT if you don't do anything threatening or Brainstorm/counter if you do. That deck actually has a lot of ways to deal with a Chalice that doesn't come down before it gets a turn.

  20. #60

    Re: [DtW] Aggro Loam

    I agree fully with what you say but the question is what would be a better solution? Crime does no better.

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