[Deck] Aggro Loam

[sdematt]

Really? I didn't have it that bad at all. I was winning most of my preboard games.

What do you find in your decklist that lets you beat RUG much better than my list?

-Matt

[Fade]

Tested again about 20 games RUG vs. Aggro Loam with that decklist, and again it seems hopeless pre-board. Either I have a damn good RUG list or I have the worst luck ever.

Have the matches been close at all? Essentially if you land a big goyf or crusher you should just win pre board. The fires and explosives clear way for their delvers and other creatures and if you ran chalice it blanks about half their deck if not more.


With sylvan library I used to run it as a one of for testing purposes but my list was tight and I shaved it. I might have to run them again though.

[razvan]

Hm, good question. Some have been close, but they are just able to burn me out from 6-8 or so. Sometimes, their wastes and dazes and forces are too much, and being able to burn down Confidants puts me in a bad attrition state, and they win handily.

These are all pre-board, btw. Post-board, it gets slightly better, since I have 4 REBs to counter their board. Funny enough, they have more cards to bring in against me (submerges and cranial extractions), but that dilutes their deck a lot more.

Honestly, that is probably the reason. RUG is fast, has cheap, undercosted threats that can be deployed really quickly, has burn and free counterspells to deal with whatever I play, and Delver + Mongoose are sick. I generally lose more games to a T1 delver or a couple of mongeese than goyf.

[razvan]

Ok so I sort of realized a few things. This might be completely wrong, and please feel free to bash me over the head with something (preferably Penny from Big Bang Theory). This is specifically for GP:Indy.

Right now, these are the decks that are going to be very popular: Burn, Dredge, Stoneblade, RUG delver, Maverick.

There will be a few others: BUG, SnT Combo, Elves, MUD, Bant of sorts, and Junk.

Aggro Loam doesn’t really have the greatest match-ups against most of those decks, however. Stoneblade and Maverick are pretty good for us, but the linear decks of burn combo and dredge could be bad. There is still the stupid RUG delver issue, but most of you say that’s not an issue. My RUG delver list runs 3-4 Chain Lightning, so maybe the overload of burn is the problem for me.

Dredge/Reanimator/Lands/Other GY decks can be answered from the sideboard. I am not sure why, but I feel like packing a healthy amount of GY hate. 4 Leylines, maybe even 1-2 Bojuka Bogs.

Burn and Combo, I think there is no way I can make that matchup even, but I will hope for the best, and hope that I can draw a Devastating Dreams against Burn (maybe 2!), and same against combo, alongside 4 REBs.

Also, I have (tentatively) decided to make a small change to the maindeck:

-3 Seismic Assault
-3 Countryside Crusher

Yes, I have gone mad. Here’s my thought through testing 60 games vs. RUG (and extrapolating it to similar decks, burn, UR delver).

First, this deck will be incredibly popular. It’s cheap, easy, smooth, fun to play, gets there quickly, thus giving a lot of rest time.

Secondly, there is no real late game. You will not be able to rely on resolving either of those 2 cards against them. You need stuff to get you there right now. Those cards do not seem like they can do so.

Crusher, IMO can be really bad. You cannot cast him once you hit 3 mana. Burn, Daze and such are a big deal. Even with a fetch or something, they can still deal with him in response to his trigger. Yes, if you ever untap with him, it’s probably game, unless they have a Delver and blockers, snapcaster, etc. So I think that at least for now, he’s not the greatest threat. Also, I have played without him, and never missed him. I have played with him, and sided him out a lot. He’s just too damned slow.

Same obviously goes for burn and other brutal decks.

Instead, I have gone back to this package of creatures:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Terravore

So why Terravore, the good old standby? Well, I have always been a fan of him. Secondly, he often starts out bigger than Crusher (and anything else), and he’s hard to burn or Dismember. Third, I like trample.

Ooze is amazing. Goyf isn’t that amazing anymore, but he is still goyf. He’s the perfect 2nd turn creature, when he’s a 3/4 for 2 mana.

Now, why not Seismic Assault? This card is phenomenal.

It is. It is very difficult to lose once you have Loam and Seismic and a nice life buffer. Problem is, you rarely have Loam and Seismic and a nice life buffer. I generally always have 2 out of 3, and that’s not always good enough.

So, I decided, on a non-precedential basis, to take out the Seismics. Just for one event.

So I end up with this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Terravore

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
3-4 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

Mana base is according, 4 mox diamonds, 4 cycle, 6 fetch, 4 waste, 2 basic, 3 grove, 6-7 duals, 0-1 specialty land.

So more jund aggro with loam than aggro loam. But, we shall see.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think dropping all the Assaults is a mistake. Assault beats a lot of fair decks by itself and is far more crushing going long than Punishing Fires. I would consider keeping some in your 75 if you can.

If you are dropping Assaults, though, you may want to shave into the number of Loams you run. I think Loam's best uses, in order, are Wastelocking people, powering Assault, and drawing cards. You want the full four Loams if you are trying to accomplish all of those, but you don't need them if you're only trying to do some of them. You're probably okay with 3 Loams in an Assault-less build.

Consider Grim Lavamancer. Guy is good and gives you another way to interact with RUG and UR Delver early.

I agree that Crusher is not that great in Bolt.format. Terravore looks pretty sweet right now.

While the tiers are pretty defined at this point thanks to SCG, a GP event typically has a much more diverse field. Granted, you have three byes, so you're probably going to drop down into the middle of a DtB showcase. But I don't think it will be nearly as homogenous as an SCG event: Burn is on people's radars right now, so I don't think it will do as well at a bigger event. True combo decks (as opposed to "soft" combo decks like Burn and dredge) may be back in vogue now given the recent uptick in non-blue linears. Consider some Thorns of Amethyst.

[Hanni]

I see absolutely no reason to drop Assault. That's one of the main reasons for even playing Aggro Loam. At the point where you drop Crusher too, you'd be much better off cutting red altogether and playing either Rock Loam with Knight's, or some sort of blue splashes control Loam deck (like The Mind Harvester). I would never, ever cut Assaults from Aggro Loam. Punishing Fires is not a replacement.

[razvan]

Hanni: Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire (although at this point I could see myself adding freaking Chain Lightnings for how good R->3 damage is) are the bomb. I really think Bolts will rule Indy. However, you are correct, I need to find a way to get them back. Stupid Seismic Assault.

A_Z: Ok, how about this:

-4 Punishing Fire
+2 Chain Lightning
+2 Seismic Assault

I actually do think CL is a good idea. It will allow me to get rid of the awkward Punishing Fire mana base, still have a lot of burn (which I like), put 2 Assaults back, and have more cyclers maybe?

Then just keep it at 1 Terravore as a miser draw (since I only freaking have one, what the hell, did someone eat the entire print run?)... you f-kers better not link me to eBay though :P

So now mana:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
5 Cycle Lands (3R 2G)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Seismic Assault
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

If i haven't broken the thread with my stupid decklists...

[Aggro_zombies]

I would try Lavamancer over Chain Lightning. With the amount of red in the format right now, there's a decent chance they'll be able to chain it back at you. Lavamancer at least Duresses a removal spell, and if they don't have one he makes casting guys pretty awkward.

Bog in the main seems so-so. Without Knights to fetch it up, you're left drawing or dredging into it, which is fine for a powerful stand-alone effect like Stronghold, but not as hot for a hate card.

Also, I'd reeeeaaaaally consider Zuran Orbs in the board for the red matchups.

EDIT: I don't feel comfortable dropping all the Crushers. They're really a compelling reason to run the Loam engine. I'm wondering if you could go to three Goyfs, drop Bog, add two Crushers. But then you have a lot of threes...hmm.

EDIT 2: Liliannas are probably not maindeckable right now. Three mana for Edict + fog a guy just does not seem very well positioned versus tempo or burn-based decks. If you like her - and you seem to - you may want to consider boarding her for slower matchups. As-is, I'd suggest -2 Chain Lightning, -2 Lili, -1 Goyf, +3 Crusher, +2 Grim Lavamancer. Consider swapping Bog to Ring.

[razvan]

Problem with ZOrb is that i would need at least 3 or maybe even 4 to draw it quickly. And space is tight, unless i ignore the Dredge match-up and Reanimator match-up completely. What sort of board would you run?

Hm... I had Lavamancer and wasn't too impressed. It was difficult to get enough cards in the GY to make him work, between Loam and Ooze. I have to think about it.

I played a bit without crushers, and it was not a problem. They are nice if you untap with them. But sometimes, you don't get to do so.

edit: interesting on Liliana. However, Fog + Edict is pretty good against tempo, it kills something and gets me another turn from another. Hell, I have another in the SB for the really slow matchups.

And yeah, you are very correct on Ring to Bog.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fair enough on Crushers. Still not sold on maindeck Lili, though.

I'm not sure what I'd board. I would probably not make a decision until the day-of:

2 REB -obvious
2 Pyroblast - obvious
3 Surgical - Reanimator, Dredge, Snapcaster (Stoneblade)
3 Dreams - Maverick, combo
2 Grip - Equipment (Stoneblade), MUD

With the last three slots being some of the following:

Zuran Orb: Burn, UR Delver, storm
Thorn of Amethyst: Burn, UR Delver, storm
Noxious Revival: Attrition matchups, possibly tempo.
Virtue's Ruin: Maverick, NO decks, Bant
Perish: Maverick, NO decks, Bant
Ancient Grudge: Equipment, Affinity, MUD
Thoughtseize: Combo, midrange/control with combo finish
Chainer's Edict / Diabolic Edict: Reanimator, NO decks
Bojuka Bog: Reanimator, Dredge
Shattering Spree: Equipment, Affinity, MUD
Sylvan Library: Attrition, decks with discard
Cursed Totem: Stoneforge Mystic decks, Maverick, random decks

There's a bunch of overlap there, but some cards are better at one end of the overlap than the others. I wouldn't consider boarding heavily for Storm, since you can't really beat it (in b4 blue splash). The remaining "combo" decks you're likely to see are Reanimator, Burn, Dredge, Painter, and probably some form of Show and Tell. Reanimator and Dredge overlap in the hate department, Painter piggybacks off your artifact hate, and Burn and SnT need dedicated hate cards. SnT is unlikely to show up in large numbers, so I'd suggest something for burn.

[AggroSteve]

noxios revival should be really good against reanimator as well, placing their reanimation target on top of their library and taking one of their drawsteps in the course seem quite good to me, but i have to admit i am not that expierienced with that matchup.

i would probably use one of these or maybe a combination: zuran orb / ancient grudge /noxios revival

i also would cut 1 dreams but that would be personal preference

[Aggro_zombies]

Dreams are probably the softest spot of the cards I would definitely include. I used three because the land destruction element is surprisingly useful - I remember completely destroying Enchantress decks with resolved Dreams because of how mana-hungry they are. It's also pretty good against midrange decks and non-Vial aggro decks.

[sdematt]

It also hits Mongoose and Delvers so hard. Mind you, it's easily countered, but still.

I'd say cut 1 Dreams for a Virtue's Ruin. Serves double-duty against Reanimator, and it hoses Maverick.

With the 3 remaining Slots, I'd run at least 1 Noxious Revival and 1 Grudge. Grudge is too good not to play, and Affinity will be popular at Indy. It's cheap and good right now. Revival helps you survive their Surgicals, as well. Or, you can put garbage on top to pollute their draws, hose their graveyard, or give yourself a recursion for Assault/EE/etc.

I'm not even sure if you really *need* 4 Blasts. Not saying they're bad, just, it opens up a slot.

-Matt

[razvan]

Ok so that decklist above, I forgot the Bayou. Cut a Cave for it.

And I ran about 10 more games vs. delver, and now I am winning pretty good. I even got a 4-1 EE :P 2 geese, 1 unflipped delver and the top (well, top bounced itself, but still).

Lavamancers are a great idea A_Z. I had them before, cut them because of the fires, but with those gone, they are good. 2 is also enough.

Terravore and 4 Goyf is good too. I managed to give him +3/+3 with a funky Life dredge (mox, assault, liliana).

As for the SB, I think 3 dreams is pretty key. It gives you the ability to steal a game from your really bad match-ups.

4 REB
3 Dreams
2 Grip
2 Grudge
4 Leyline

I think I would be happy with this, and if I run against burn, eh... can't win 'em all. I would rather shore up Dredge and Artifact hate rather than over-generalize.

[Swing4Five]

I'm a bit confused on how there hasn't been any discussion of Faithless Looting in this thread. The Looting + Loam interaction is the reason I'm thinking of picking this deck back up for bigger tournaments.

I don't have my list in front of me right now, but I think this is where I left it after a local weeknight event last week.

3 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault

4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (without this in front of me I just re-built it from the ground up)
2 Choke
2 REB
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Inquisition
1 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Faerie Macabre

[razvan]

Again, since you only have a basic forest and a basic mountain, make it 4 Foothills, 2 Mire.

Looting is not a bad idea, the problem is imo, you don't want to durdle around. You have a great long game anyway, it's your short game that needs help.

Also, you want bolts over punishing fire. The extra damage for one less mana is really good, and you don't have to mess around with a 2-card combo that would make the other card useless if an Extirpate effect hits.

[Aggro_zombies]

Looting seems fine but I think it's in third place after Bob and Sylvan Library. There's also the problem that a lot of lists are tight, and Looting doesn't do anything essential for you. In the early game, it's not as good at digging for answers as Library, and doesn't block or soak up removal like Bob; in the late game, it's going to give you fewer cards than an active Library or Bob would have.

I also don't like Inquisition. Discard as a disruption strategy tends to get better when it's surrounded with other discard, in the same way counterspells get better when you have a bunch of them as opposed to a few. Aggro Loam doesn't have a lot of room for discard and would get more mileage out of something more brute-forcey, like Raven's Crime.

[razvan]

So I played in a 31-man event today, and I sort of got rocked.

R1 - 2-1 vs. Stoneblade
R2 - 0-2 vs. Affinity
R3 - 2-0 vs. Maverick w/ Red
R4 - 0-2 vs. U/R delver
R5 - 0-2 vs. Dredge

I punted the matches vs. dredge, I could have easily won G1 if i wasn't an idiot. So that last round is sort of iffy. He (Dejan) is a good player, but I think I should have won.

The affinity match-up is a f-k-up anyway. He was attacking on turn 2 with cranial plating. Not much you can do against that despite having 2 Grudge, 2 Grip, 2 Pulse, 2 EE, Bolts, Lavamancer, none of which I saw G1 or G2.

The UR delver match-up was a bit of a bad luck too. In game 1, I dredged 6 times, never dredging a land, and I drew (off cyclers and such) about 16 cards, ALL land. He attacked with Goblin Guide game 1, I revealed a land, then killed the Goblin, and that was the ONLY damage any of his creatures did to me, in either game. He simply burned me to death.

So yeah, I am sort of depressed and don't really know if I want to take this to Indy. But I have to, since it's really the only deck I am comfortable with. Maybe GW-b or GW-r maverick. But this deck, I am so comfortable with, and it might just do really well because of that... or if I face Maverick and Stoneblade all freaking day.

So now, back to the discussion.

You cannot plan for both burn and GY hate. I am still thinking about trying Zuran Orb, but I don't know. I might just SB for one, and hope to dodge the other.

Also, Scavenging Ooze is simply amazing. It's good in pretty much EVERY match-up, except maybe most combo. It makes your good match-ups better, and it gives you a shot against your bad match-ups. It helps against burn, it would have won against dredge if I wasn't stupid.

I want to play 4.

Also, I think I will try without Seismic Assault. It might shave some points off some match-ups, but they are so bad in your bad match-ups, and don't really help your good match-ups that much.

I really wanna fit in 3 MD Ooze and another in the SB, or maybe all 4 MD. At some point, I believed that 4 Ooze might be a pretty standard thing, and I think now is the time.

You play it and it doesn't die against UR or RUG, and that's all. You have Ooze + Mox against Dredge, and you can win.

In the list above, I might take out the 2 Seismics for an Ooze and maybe another or something else.

So now, why would you play Aggro Loam without Seismics or Crushers?

Well, I think that having Goyfs + Bolts + Ooze + Bobs is the way to go, and this is the only deck that can run it. You still have Loams for wastelocks and drawing a few times off cyclers, but you are not so dependent on loams anymore, even though they win game 1.

I am tempted to even put 2 Strongholds in the deck, but that might be overkill.

Anyway, and I really need to rethink the SB. I might need to try something drastic.

Anyone else planning to play Aggro Loam going?

[Dark Ritual]

I might run loam at Indy, still undecided. I also played with Antonius' list in a tournament today, going 3-2-1 and lost in the deciding round to mono blue faeries + ninjas + standstills.dec, crushing him game 1, then drawing rather poorly in games 2 and 3 in game 3 I would have won if firespout resolved but he had force and I got loam flooded instead of drawing any practical cards like lavamancer, bolt, a black source, or anything really. Also lost to affinity, game 1 I couldn't answer tezzeret and game 2 he got turn 1 plating into turn 2 etched champion into turn 3 plating to kill me on turn 4. I really like the list though overall, cutting seismic's and crusher's is the last thing I want to do as seismic was a beating all day against every deck I faced, except when I didn't draw loam one time. Crusher is still the best creature in the deck by far in terms of power and toughness with bob still being the nuts. If I anticipate lots of blue at Indianapolis I will probably roll with Antonius' list there.

[timmycolossus]

My ignorance is showing here. Out of curiosity has any tried (I certainty have not) exploration or tabernacle in this deck? Would exploration give the deck a better turn 1 in combination with mox diamond? Is tabernacle to far from the decks purpose?