Yes, I get that. But if Goyf cost $200, that probably means, that there are about 3 times as many Legacy players as there are today (just an assumption). This is of course nice for the Legacy community, but does not warrant a forced solution for a problem that is hardly a problem, because Legacy's popularity is quite on a high level already.Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I am actually quite happy with the format and its popularity, therefore I don't see a need for a solution. I don't own Goyfs or Tabernacles (yes, because of their price), but that doesn't keep me from enjoying the format.
Most people aren't rich even when they seem they are. People making 60 - 80 thousand a year are still struggling to pay theyre mortgages. Magic players are just dumb enough to spend their money on cards than renovate their home or buy a new car.
Ok I get that. But still Magic is a low-key hobby compared to let's say being mad in electronics or bikes or cars...
I would assume an average legacy player would spend 1000$ on average a year, which is not much by any means for an adult hobby.
Now that sparks the main difference between IRL players with MWS players. Most people on these forums always talk about competitive play and get 2000$ list up in your face all the time.
But the reality is most players have to play with the cards they have, and it does affect the list that are being played.
I am currently mounting an Ichorid deck because it looks fun AND it's very cheap.
The only issue in Legacy are the lands. The average cost of 20 lands is around 500$ because of the duals and fetches.
I don't mind playing painlands or full basic personaly. Full basic protects you against wasteland and a lot of things really, but then you need to build around that and it's not that easy to splash just for green, to play a stupid card like Goyf ;-)
I love to play big blue, and then people just tells you, remove those ugly islands to splash a bit of white and black to widen my reserve options..
Ho yeah, let me splash 4 underground sea, the 4 fetches to go with it and a few toundras around for around 400 quids..
Suddenly my deck has more than doubled in value for a doubtfull result, and.. That's just not on !
And then you decide to play 4 back to basics MD haha
If you can make a set of Baneslayer Angels out of four basic lands, that reduces the need to actually -- you know -- buy their product. No product sales -> No game.
About "direct" and "indirect" revenues from the secondary market, it's not an important distinction. WotC directly benefits from the secondary market by players having trust their cards have value. That's as good as hard cash. The secondary market encourages players/collectors to participate in this thing, crack packs for chase cards, hoard, etc. The secondary market makes their operation work. It's like the US's approach to money. Nixon took the US off the gold standard (where dollars were backed by a valuable commodity) in 1971. Now, the dollar is supported only by a trust in the economy that it has exchangeable value. Magic cards are the same way.
Reprints of cards off the reserved list is the only solution I could support. Banning my Tundras and Forces would have me walk away from this format almost immediately.
One thing that should be noted in regards to the Reserved List and Reprints.
Wizards has confirmed that Phyrexian Negator is in the Phyrexia v. Coalition duel deck. Phyrexian Negator is on the Reserve List. Phyrexian Negator is being reprinted.
Jace vs. Chandra has more than $20 of cards in it. Wizards used it to introduce Gush, Daze, and Fireblast to MTGO as well as making FoF affordable online. It's not a huge stretch to imagine a Duel deck featuring New Jace and Force of Will, or Ajani Vengeant and Plateau. I think products like FtV and Duel decks have already started to address this issue, and that it will only increase over time.
Corporate policy by whose rules?
Texas?
California?
Singapore?
Do you know how many different jurisdictions that suit could be filed from given the number of countries in which Magic The Gathering is sold by Hasbro?
What country or state is the corporation that you are a policy guy based in?
Wizards of the Coast's rules. Don't be an idiot.
Zero, because it's not a contract in any way, shape, or form.
My preferred solution:
A new set like the Masters Edition, II, and III, but not Standard/Extended legal and white bordered (no-foils), like Anthologies and (dare I say) Chronicles (only with its own expansion symbol).
Pros:
- Access to cards for newer players.
- With ugly white borders, there should be less of an impact on prices.
- By using boosters, this would halt price-gouging frenzies like FTV series, which doesn't actually help avg. players access the cards.
- Increased revenue for Wizards.
Cons:
- Although they would be white bordered and ugly, so are Revised duals, so the prices would probably drop slightly on those, making those who have them irate.
- Chronicles... yikes! But I really think the market has changed since then. Can we really compare 1995 to 2010?
- Breaks reserve list policy.
I really think this is their best solution. Special products like box sets/dual decks, etc. cannot accommodate all the cards that would be needed. You can't cram 10 dual lands (1 of each) in two dual decks, and if you did FTV duals, that would not make them more accessible to avg. players and would also mean waiting for reprints of other cards. A Masters Edition would allow reprints of commons like Sinkhole and Chain Lightning.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
Chronicles was originally intended to be "refreshed" every other year or so and continually printed alongside the core set in order to provide increased access to cards unavailable to newer players. Eventually this reprint policy got rolled into the core set rotations. I owned moxes and full duals when chronicles came out and I was thrilled to be able to finally get City of Brass and Ali from Cairo (this was a long time ago remember).
Also, as I pointed out a few posts ago, and I'm going to use caps because nobody who made one of the next five or so posts seemed to understand this:
THE REPRINT/RESERVE LIST POLICY HAS ALREADY BEEN ENDED BY WIZARDS!! THEY CONFIRMED THEY'RE REPRINTING PHYREXIAN NEGATOR IN A DUEL DECK. NEGATOR IS ON THE RESERVE LIST. IT IS BEING REPRINTED. THE RESERVE LIST AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS IS ALREADY OVER. STOP ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO/CAN CHANGE IT. THEY ALREADY HAVE.
Thanks for reading and comprehension.
EDIT: yeah, I like MMog's idea. that or just bring back Chronicles.
EDIT EDIT: Also, wizards has already reversed themselves on policy like this. Note that MTGO sets which were supposed to be "always redeemable" now stop redeeming after several years. There were no stupid crazy lawsuits or other nonsense. People just figured it the **** out.
This question is a fascinating one that has occupied my thoughts for a while now. I did a little research into the matter, and discovered the following information.
1. The Reserve List is Not a Legal Document
Many Magic players, both on this site and in the greater Magic-playing world at large, think that the reserve list is some sacred and inviolable statute. They think it is a legal document, a matter of corporate policy, a contract between parties, and so on. None of this is true. I encourage all of you to examine the language and legal documentation on the reserve list page itself: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/art.../reprintpolicy
There are a lot of confidence-inspiring words, and a lot of pretty sentences. But the only legal language that would be upheld in a courtroom is the copyright information at the bottom of the page. Nothing else would even remotely qualify as legally stated. A "Policy", as we must understand it in this case, is just a corporate statute that has no legal implications. It is for public confidence and image, but not for courtrooms.
2. What are the origins of the Reserve List?
This is another question that most people cannot answer. It was developed specifically in response to Chronicles. When Chronicles came out, the prices of the originals of various reprinted cards (from Legends, Arabian Nights, and so on) dropped like stones. This made a lot of collectors mad, and Wizards, in an attempt to restore confidence in their marketing and product, instituted the Reserve List. This reprint policy was made to restore happiness to an upset population. (source: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...gcom/daily/rb9)
Unfortunately for the upholders of the Reserve List, the logic that got it instituted in the first place no longer applies. Here is a quote from Randy Buehler in his 2002 article "Reexamining Reprints":
The Chronicles logic was completely overturned. Years went by, and the concept of Magic collection altered in that time frame. Old cards were inherently "cooler" than new ones. "Pimp deck" minded players sought out old versions in preference to new ones. Nostalgia hit hard. There were many compounding factors that the creators of the reserve list in the 90s could never have foreseen. This means, right off the bat, that there are flaws in the foundations of this list and the reprint policy.However, we saw a really interesting phenomenon recently when we brought back some old iconic cards. When Serra Angel was reprinted in 7th Edition, the price of older versions of Serra actually went up, not down. If you think about it, that makes sense. Sure, the supply of Serras has gone up, but the demand has gone up even more. Suddenly she’s tournament legal again and even players who don’t care about tournaments are getting their hands on her and then learning that an older version exists with different art. Some people prefer the older art, some people just think it’s cooler to play with older cards, etc.
3. The Reserve List is Not Set in Stone
Even ignoring the fact that the Reserve List is not a legal document, it is still not set in stone. It has been altered on at least a few distinct occasions. Clone got brought back for Onslaught because it was cool and fit the set's theme. Juggernaut got brought back for Mirrodin block because it was an artifact creature and was iconic. Phyrexian Negator is being returned in the Duel decks owing to its flavor and theme. Indeed the Reserve List itself has gone through at least a handful of incarnations over time.
This point is evidenced in the following instances. First, at the end of the "Reexamining Reprints" article, Buehler offers a poll to his readers: "
If this policy were as concrete and absolute as many would have us believe, Buehler would not be asking our opinions. Now admittedly, one might argue that he is doing this just to make an interesting survey. The same way that we might ask a readership "What if the British had won the Revolutionary War?" That is to say, maybe he is just asking an interesting question without any intent or desire whatsoever to act on it.So what do you think? Am I missing something? Do you think the Reprint Policy should be modified to allow Wizards to reprint commons and uncommons from the early basic editions? Should the policy be modified? ( ) Yes ( ) No
This faulty interpretation is fully overthrown in his subsequent article in which he outlines a NEW reprint policy! Incidentally, this second article, "The New Reprint Policy," appeared months after the first: March through July. This was more than enough time to implement reader opinion, as well as independent Wizards research. Buehler himself confirms this assertion:
Thus, we cannot view the Reprint Policy and Reserve List as a chiseled in stone, Ten Commandments style document. It is a living policy, an animated policy far more malleable than a Constitution or legal statute.In what turned out to be one of the most lopsided poll questions ever, 91% of you wanted Wizards to reexamine the reprint policy and change it to accommodate at least the change I was proposing.
Well, we looked into the issue and the revised reprint policy is finally ready to go into effect.
(Source: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/daily/rb29)
4. The Reserve List is Under Scrutiny
Wizards understands these points which I have made, and as recently as June 8 2009, they addressed them in clear and forward language. In his "Tweet Talk" article on this date, Mark Rosewater addressed the question about partially or fully abolishing the reserve list. His response is telling:
I have bolded the relevant parts of this quote. Wizards fully grasps the inadequacies of the list, but also must wrestle with consumer opinion. R&D, if left to their own devices without external impetus, would almost certainly change the list; after all, Rosewater admits that it is not functioning as it should. But they have the other consideration of buyers and collectors from across the world. It is absolutely, as Rosewater says, a Gordian Knot.I've talked about this before but it's an important enough point to make again. The reserve list (the list that tells us what cards we can never reprint, for those who don't know) was created long ago by people who no longer work at Wizards. It was done to help ease concerns of our player base at the time. The majority of current R&D feels that the reprint list isn't fulfilling the function it was created for (and at times seems to actually counteract it), but, and this is the important sticking point, we've learned through market research that the majority of our audience feels it's important for Wizards of the Coast, as a company, to keep its word. So we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We want to do what is best for the game and our players and we want to keep the confidence of our consumers. If anyone has a solution to this Gordian knot, please let me know.
(Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/Magazin...tg/daily/mm/42)
CONCLUSIONS: What next?
What follows is purely speculation, but it is speculation based in fact.
Wizards will seriously rework the Revise List in the near future.
Why would they do this? Why would they alienate their valued and loyal customers? Because if they do not alienate collectors, they will alienate PLAYERS, and Wizards is ultimately a gaming company, not a collectible company. They have made a commitment to the Legacy format and to fostering a fun environment in which Legacy can thrive. If this means that they will throw the collectors under the tracks, then so be it. They already threw out the damage on the stack rule, a move that really pissed off veteran players, but opened up Magic to a younger and less experienced set of competitors. Hasbro is a gaming company before all else, and they want people to game, compete, and play. They care about the secondary market and collectors only insofar as it does not interfere with the fun of their game.
The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
I am eager to everyone's thoughts on this.
-ktkenshinx-
Their own. Corporate policies are not laws. They have no authority other than over their own actions.
As ktkenshinx points out above, a policy is a non-binding statement. They're written tools to help organizations make decisions. Unless a policy carries the weight of an executive order or is enshrined in law, it's just a piece of paper. For it to be binding, it would have to meet the test of a contract (offer/acceptance, consideration, mutuality, competent parties, etc.). WotC's reprint policy fails as a contract in almost every way it could. So, it's just a corporate statement that could be modified like any other statement they've made.
If it's not binding (as in a contract that a court would enforce), someone wishing to sue WotC over a change to their Reprint Policy -- as one of the Elgins pointed out above -- would need to prove a willful intent on WotC's part to deceive and defraud people of their money. That would be illegal and you could take them to court for that. However, everything points to the fact that the original Reprint Policy was made in earnest. Next a plaintiff would have to demonstrate actual damages as a result of the policy change, which would be difficult since the market for collectibles is pretty volatile.
Whatever risks there are in changing the policy are not legal risks. The real risk is how it could undermine the confidence players and collectors have in the value of their cards. I'm pretty sure that's the debate they're having about the Reprint Policy. If WotC was smart, and I truly believe they are -- they could manage this by their marketing and communication and by getting out in front of the message and not being seen as reactive to negative opinion among their customer base (i.e. "yes, we realize this may be scary, but we're making this change for [x reason] and there is no plan to reprint P9, etc.") I'm positive this is inevitable if MtG is going to survive as a game -- though I'm not sure if it will happen this year or some other.
This sums it up nicely.
OH MY GOD THE RESERVE LIST HAS ENDED BECAUSE WIZARDS IS REPRINTING A FOIL PHYREXIAN NEGATOR AND NEGATOR IS ON THE RESERVED LIST. THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED AND NEVER DONE BEFORE. NO CARD ON THE RESERVE LIST HAS BEEN REPRINTED.
Shit...
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
They posted over on the Wizards Boards that they're holding to the Foil = Ok to reprint interpretation.
http://community.wizards.com/magicth..._and_spoilers!
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
jason,
I just used negator because its the only one we have art for. supposedly quite a few cards from the reserve list are going to be reprinted in Phyrexia v. Coalition. The people who spoiled them are people who have accurately spoiled cards before. Then all of a sudden all of those peoples accounts went inactive and all of their posts - even old ones - were deleted. This tends to imply that they did in fact have good information and went dark due to threats of legal action.
Reprinting a card as a promo is one thing, and something that wizards has always maintained does not violate the reserve list. The PvC reprints will be a big step up from that, as previously wizards had stated that the reserve list covers duel decks. That has changed.
EDIT: this post is obsoleted by anusiens post directly above
WoTC really needs to just reprint cards from older sets that are just becoming more scarce as time goes on. I think that a majority of players will want to still own the older versions of cards as much as possible but newer players will eat them up so that they can play. I like IBA's suggestion of making a box set that has a majority of the staple cards in it for a reasonable price that still won't drop the price of the cards dramatically. This makes sure that people still can enter the format for a reasonable price but also won't cause most people's investments in their cards depreciate considerably in a day or few days.
As far as the article, I thought it was very well thought out and clearly expressed. I am looking forward to what his solutions will be though it would be nice to see someone from WoTC writing an article on this subject because regardless of the author's solutions it won't change anything.
Well, I think we can count on Tabernacle, Imperial Recruiter, and Loyal Retainers staying rare and un-reprinted for a while, but if Wizards keeps on the same road, I'll expect to see the foil duals soon.
Oh dear, please not. Duals are the most iconic and nostalgic cards of Magic. Not only for players, but also for collectors.
I've put much effort into trading some wb duals during the last ~5 years and I'd really be pissed, if every 13year old kid could just go to the shop, buy a box with bb foil duals and even wins the price in the Pimp Legacy thread with them.
Do you have any idea how ugly they would be? They technically don't have any rules text anymore - just a big, empty text box. They did a mock-up on Magicthegathering.com once that showed a Bayou in the new frame and it was the most horrendous thing I've ever seen.
Let them have their ugly-ass, curly foil Duals.
At any rate, however, I read on Salvation from a guy who has spoiled many cards in the past that Negator is not the only card in the set that is on the Reserve list. It's possible they're considering the entire set as a "Premium" product, so we may see non-foil duals in some future Duel Decks, released in such a way that they're not all available at once.
Wait, what? I'll give you Tabernacle, but seeing as Recruiter and Retainers are not even on the reserved list, I would never discount them being re-released in some specialty product like a duel deck. They don't even have to put them in foil!
It would be much better if they didn't reprint them as foils, imo. Most people seem to feel that way.
I guess I wouldn't have a problem with them being reprinted a few at a time in "dual" decks. My guess is it would mostly have a stabilizing effect on the value of existing duals, rather than causing them to plummet. As long as Legacy continues to grow in popularity, that is. Wizards needs to start supporting the format more than just 1 GP every other year. That's probably not an issue, though; I'd think their intention to support the format would be implicit with reprinting the duals.
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