Is there a way to make White Weenie a (somewhat) viable strategy?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok... So one of my favorite deck archetypes (mostly for nostalgic reasons) is White Weenie. However, I'm no fool, and I realize that compared to many creature-based strategies available in Legacy, the armies of White are pretty inefficient.

What I'm wondering is whether or not there is a way to make the strategy somewhat viable. One of the things that has gotten me thinking about it is the recent success of UW Tempo... This has gotten me thinking about other directions the "WW" strategy could go by splashing other colors. I know that Pikula and Boros don't get much attention (mostly because they're out-classed by other strategies currently) but what I'm wondering is if there is a way to make a White Weenie deck that doesn't completely suck. I figure splashing another color is probably the only way to feasibly do this. Red would obviously offer burn for reach. Black would offer Dark Confidant, and probably some discard, either out of the sideboard or in the main deck. Vindicate and Spectral Lynx are also pretty powerful tools, I think. (Note that the hypothetical decks I'm talking about would probably use white as the primary color, whereas Pikula's primary color is black, and Boros is usually about 50-50.)

Anyways, I feel like I'm kind of rambling here already, and for that I apologize. I guess I just figured this might be an interesting topic of discussion, even if it doesn't yield the new "Deck to Beat" (which I'm pretty damn sure it's not going to.) Anyone want to weigh in?

[Skeggi]

You could try and play Soldiers, that's the most viable White Wheenie at the moment I think. Death & Taxes isn't exactly White Wheenie.

[Mayk0l]

I agree. In a meta without combo, the soldier deck is actually really powerful

I'll get a decklist later

[Tinefol]

Check UW Tempo thread, its probably the closest you can get and its viable.

[FoolofaTook]

This looks kind of interesting:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29242

5th out of 72 in Moscow.

I really like the Ajani Goldmane, it's the first deck I've seen him used in where he makes more sense than Elspeth.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I didn't really want to show this, because it still needs a lot of fine-tuning, but here's a deck-list I came up with yesterday. Maybe this will spark some discussion:

"Pikuliar" White Weenie:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spectral Lynx
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (not sure if this is necessary, or if SoLS might be better than SoFI...)

4 Path to Exile
2 Vindicate

4 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Plains
1 Swamp

...So, uh, yeah. It's still definitely an awkward list, but I think this might be an interesting direction to try to take Pikula in. One concern of mine right off the bat is whether or not Wayfarer and KotWO will actually be enough to reliably be able to power out Vindicate and Elspeth when I needed to... (I'm not making any claims about this list being good or not, this is 100% untested.)

[MSC]

Knight of the WO is really counterproductive with Wayfarer. I would cut Wayfarer for the full package of Lynx and Vindicate, as they are both really strong.

The Problem is, that I think this is still worse than the black-splashed Angel-Stompy I'm playing sometimes and that is Tier 2 at best.

[alderon666]

You're not going to get the same milleage from KotWO as NoGoyf gets. You don't have Daze or Fathom Seer to bounce your lands.

"Wastelock" from Wayfarer is not as good without Daze/Spell Pierce.

[kicks_422]

Well, T2 legal Kithkin decks have made a couple of Legacy T8's.

[porcupinetreeman]

I've been fooling around with white for a while now. I think the best color to splash is green. You get some bombs like Tarmogoyf, Teeg, Qasali Pridemage. This deck did well a while back.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29510

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Well, T2 legal Kithkin decks have made a couple of Legacy T8's.

This. If you want to stay mono-W, I think your safest bet is tribal.

The most successful Wx decks I've seen on deckcheck splash G for goofy, pridemage, KotR and some other stuff. These decks have posted recent results and a lot of them look fairly similar, like Bant Aggro with more creatures and no disruption. They all devote a ton of room in the board to a MU they probably won't win anyway, which kind of sucks, but they all take a pretty novel approach to fighting blue, my favorite of which is Aven Mindcensor.

[Forbiddian]

Well, T2 legal Kithkin decks have made a couple of Legacy T8's.

The thing is that they also have had 17,000 plays since poor players occasionally rock some type 2 decks. Most weeks players like that go 1-4 or 2-3, but sometimes they get lucky in the early rounds and then get luckier in the middle rounds and then get luckiest in the late rounds and crap out a top 8.

The linked Kithkins Deck:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29242

Looks like it would beat Merfolks, but IT HAS ZERO CARDS FOR FACING COMBO DECKS, so what's even the point? Out of the board it would get 4x Ethersworn Canonist. So I guess they're hoping for the 16% runner runner lucksack of double EC draws both games and the opponent never gets any type of removal. ZZz.

Not only Belcher, Black Storm, and Solidarity would rape this but even like Reanimator, Painter's Grind, Dream Halls, hell even that one combo deck built by Cavius has wet dreams about running into this pile in a large tournament and picking up a free win.


This is why white weenie is not successful. It has very strong creatures that are well-positioned in the metagame. Grunt, Serra Avenger, and Mother of Runes can handle Goyf decks. White also has generally the best sideboard options in the format and the best removal, so you'll always have a good chance against fast aggro/lord aggro: Zoo, Goblins, Aggro Elves, and Merfolks, and then the ability to board for whatever you want.

But if you want to win any large events in this format, you HAVE TO BEAT COMBO. Maybe your deck doesn't have to beat combo every time, but on your way to any top 8 in the US you've got to expect to run into at least two combo decks, and if you go 0-2 you're already out of the top 8.

[Amon Amarth]

As long as White lacks any way to meaningfully interact with opponents that don't use the combat phase its not going to be viable. The lack of a card drawing engine only exacerbates the problem; the few decent anti combo/control cards the color offers wont show up often enough. So, no.

[alderon666]

Canonist + Mother of Runes is actually very potent against combo, as they need 2 consecutive answers against it.

I don't know if the problem is combo... Lands.dec also has a dreaded matchup against combo, but it's been seen in the top tables. I think the problem is the overall quality of the cards, starying mono pays of very little in consistency and costs alot in power.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't know if the problem is combo... Lands.dec also has a dreaded matchup against combo, but it's been seen in the top tables.

Disagree. It's completely sideboard dependent, but don't take my word for it:

Stats:
2-1 versus Merfolk
2-1 versus Zoo
2-1 versus Canadian Threshold
2-2 versus Ad Nauseam
2-2 versus Dredge
2-2 versus CounterTop
1-2 versus Enchantress
0-1 versus Goblins 0-2

In my experience, I have found that this deck is weakest to speed combo strategies, but the data does not clearly bear this out. I suspect it’s because the Land deck is packing solid anti-combo measures post-board.

That's from his "So Many Insane Plays" report on legacy. Glacial Chasm can shut off Belcher or Progenitus combos, while Zuran Orb gives Tendrils a headache. Also Mindbreak Trap x 4 is not bad.

[thorin_the_king]

a fiend of mine plays very succesfully this version of WW:

4 mother of runes
4 weathered wayfarer
4 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
4 soltari priest
2 jotun grunt

4 swords to plowshares
3 oblivion ring
2 umezawa's jitte
1 basilisk collar
1 sword of fire and ice
4 aether vial
4 mana tithe

4 wasteland
1 karakas
5 fetch
9 plains

sb: im not sure in all of this but it's pretty much the uw tempo one;

3 burrenton forge tender
3 aura of silence
2 enlightened tutor
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 jotun grunt
1 ethersworn canonist
1 path to exile


hope this helps!

[Pastorofmuppets]

a fiend of mine plays very succesfully this version of WW:

4 mother of runes
4 weathered wayfarer
4 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
4 soltari priest
2 jotun grunt

4 swords to plowshares
3 oblivion ring
2 umezawa's jitte
1 basilisk collar
1 sword of fire and ice
4 aether vial
4 mana tithe

4 wasteland
1 karakas
5 fetch
9 plains

sb: im not sure in all of this but it's pretty much the uw tempo one;

3 burrenton forge tender
3 aura of silence
2 enlightened tutor
1 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 jotun grunt
1 ethersworn canonist
1 path to exile


hope this helps!

What's the Karakas for if he doesn't have any Legendaries?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Iona probably.

[_erbs_]

I've been playing white weenie since the days of crusades up to now but i seldom use it because i feel WW is more of a meta deck and will find it hard to compete with combo decks that will surely be always present in big events.

The inclusion of mana tithe is some WW decks is okay and abit unexpected by your opponent but and will surely work on the 1st time but once you had revealed it opposing players will just play around it just like daze.

Here is the list i've been using and had good win-loss records evertime i've used it.

Lands [20]
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
3 flooded strand
1 swamp
8 plains

Creatures [24]
3 mother of runes
2 kor duelist
3 stoneforge mystic
4 silver knight
4 kazandu blademaster
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 serra avenger

Utilities [16]
4 aether vial
2 umezawa's jitte
2 basilisk collar
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate

SB [15]
2 extirpate
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 burenton forge tender
4 thoughtseize
4 duress
1 path to exile / nevs's disc

before zendikar came the list was
- 2 basilik collar
- 3 stoneforge mystic
- 2 kor duelist

+ 1 jitte
+ 3 figure of destiny
+ 2 spectral lynx
+ 1 elspeth

[_erbs_]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but is that really a fair criticism if one of the format's premier decks has the exact same problems? Not all Zoo decks run combo hate in the sideboard and according to the numbers from some of the excel spreadsheets Stephen Menendian provided from the SCGs, they don't necessarily need to. WW can put up a similar clock and do more or less the same thing, albeit in two less colors.

Zoo can afford to do a race battle , WW can't because it doesn't have efficient creatures (P/T is to casting cost ratio) nor have the reach / burn of zoo. If white had those kinds of cards they could do without SB against combo decks aswell.

The closet WW to a zoo deck is boros, maybe a legacy boros could be explored further as compared to WW.

WW Variants which i know that was successful in past where:
- Classic WW
> ran 4 crusades and 2-3 angelic voices and used landtax to continously apply pressure. classic creatures like pump knights and savannah lions was used.

- Empyrial Armor
> used 4-8 shadow creatures and used empyrial to creat great damage which can't be blocked and had built-in proctection

- Angelstompy
> abused turbo lands to drop strong equips and rode it to victory

- Death and Taxes
> somewhat a aggro-control deck which used mangara lock for control on the long game if the aggro strat didnt work

- Kithkins
> all out aggro and swarmed your opponents for the win but still takes time to amass an army for an alpha strike

In general WW will never have a fast enough clock to out race a combo. Unless wizz decides to give WW a nice low casting cost creatures