About Tithe vs. KotWO, Tithe is half the mana for a better effect. The advantage of Knight is that you get a decent body with the search effect. But considering the search effect activates less than Tithe does (eot tithe/in resp to our wasteland tithe). Tithe also allows us to significantly decrease our land count because it fetches two lands, not just 1 and works with only 1 land in play whereas the effect on threat density is very little with the knight.
Idk, I've just had more success with tithe.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
Originally Posted by bowvamp
I disagree. Especially about the bold part. But first:
In general it seems to me that the benefits of KotWO outweigh the benefits of Tithe.
Upsides of Tithe:
1. You filter a land more
2. Costs 1 mana
3. Increases the chance of drawing a threat (but just as marginally as a fetch land does)
4. if there's more please tell me. I probably missed some benefits.
Downsides of Tithe:
1. You have to keep mana open to play Tithe
2. The lands you search go to your hand not into play
3. Tithe is not a threat
4. If your opponent does not have more lands in play Tithe does nothing, KotWO is still a creature.
4.1 When you're on the play Tithe is even worse than KotWO because it's not a creature
5. Tithe is a terrible topdeck (see point 3)
Knight Of The White Orchid is a threat, a Tithe and a Chrome Mox nicely wrapped together in one card.
I don't see why Tithe is better for threat density. Best case scenario's in a vacuum:
My best case scenario with KotWo on the draw:
Turn 1: I play a Figure of Destiny
Turn 2: Pump Figure of Destiny attack for 2 damage, play a MoM
Turn 3: I play KotWO, fetch a plains which comes into play untapped, play another plains and play a 2/2 threat. Attack for 3 damage.
Turn 4: Pump FoD to 4/4 Attack for 9 damage. 15 damage in total. 4 Attacking threats
Your best case scenario with Tithe on the draw:
Turn 1: You play Chrome Mox, play Tithe, play land play MoM
Turn 2: You play a land play Spectral Possesion. Attack for 1 damage
Turn 3: You play a land, play Kitchen Finks, play MoM. Attack for 4 damage
Turn 4: Attack for 8 damage. 13 damage in total 6 attacking threats.
Second best case scenario. You have Tithe, I have KotWo but you have no chrome mox (we both have enough lands).
You:
Turn 1: Play land. Play MoM
Turn 2: Play Tithe. Play land. Play MoM. Attack for 1 damage.
Turn 3: Play Land. Play Spectral Posession. Attack for 2 damage
Turn 4: Attack for 5 damage. 8 damage in total. 5 Attacking threats
Me:
Turn 1: I play a Figure of Destiny
Turn 2: Pump Figure of Destiny. Play a MoM. Attack for 2 damage.
Turn 3: I play KotWO, fetch a plains comes into play untapped. Play another plains. Play a random 2/2 threat. Attack for 3 damage.
Turn 4: Pump FoD, Attack for 9 damage. 14 damage in total. 4 Attacking threats
Your threat density does not come from Tithe but Spectral Possession. Without Spectral Possession Tithe doesn't help you more than KotWO does me. With Spectral Possession and without Tithe you're definitely screwed (unless your lucky to draw enough lands)
In general when I look at your deck I am worried about the following things:
1. You run very little white mana sources, only 16. This makes you very dependent on Tithe and Aether Vial and Chrome Mox. You have to mulligan into one of the above because you cannot depend on drawing enough lands.
2. Chrome Mox is card disadvantage
3. You don't have many 1 drop creatures for early pressure
4. Your 2 drop creatures have nice abilities but are not strong by themselves (mine are).
5. You run a lot of 3 mana spells but have very little white mana sources. Double white will be hard to get tripple white even more.
I firmly believe my deck is much more consistent. Especially when we're on the play. Basically when your Aether Vial/Tithe/Chrome Mox game plan fails you are into a lot of trouble. And in that case you can't rely much on drawing lands either. You don't have very big threats either. You can play on turn 2: 1/1's, 2/1's, or a 4/4 that can hopefully attack once.
Why I think my deck is more consistent::
1. Less chance of having to mulligan
2. Better and more consistent early game
3. Much better mid and late game (I don't think you really have them) Figure of Destiny and Ranger of Eos allow for a very strong midgame.
4. Stronger creatures. People are not afraid of an unblockable 1/1 with lifegain (they might if you would equip it)
Some other points why I think my deck is better.
I feel your only option is to go aggro and try to win the game as quick as possible. I can take up a control role vs Goblins and Merfolk which I don't see your deck do. Soem reasons:
1. My first strike creatures kill 2/2 goblins and merfolk, yours die
2. Exalted allows me to hold ground with non exalted creatures and I can still attack with 3/3 (first strike) creatures. The best creature would be an Exalted Serra Avenger.
3. Ajani makes my creatures bigger permanently and give me vigilance. This is also a benefit vs Zoo although its still a hard matchup.
BUT: I do like Spectral Posession. It might be good for my deck too. Spectral Possession and Ajani is nice.
My deck has changed a bit btw. Latest version:
//Creatures (28)
1 Kor Duelist (experimental, but not been able to test it properly yet)
2 Kor Firewalker (experimental too)
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of the Wild Orchid
4 Mother of Runes
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Sigiled Paladin
//Other permanents (5)
2 Jitte
3 Ajani Goldmane
//Instants (7)
4 Path to Exile
3 Swords to Plowshares
// Land (20)
20 Plains
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
There are a few creatures I want to bring up in this thread, creatures that seem to, IMO, aid the White Weenie strategy in that they represent both a threat and an extra card - either giving one to yourself, or taking one from the opponent.
Knight of the White Orchid - combo with Wasteland? But srsly actually, this guy is a house in this deck, since we usually get tempted to play with equipment cards that have, not prohibitive costs but sort of annoying costs. Angel Stompy ran Ancient Tomb to deal with this (and Exalted Angel to deal with the life loss + just be an awesome huge creature); I wonder if KotWO can replace Tomb altogether. In the end I don't think so, but then my deck still flips over Exalted Angel FTW so whatevs
Stoneforge Mystic - a lot of people discuss this one, and she's real good at what she does. It's easy to call her a bad creature, what having a 1 where there should be a 2, but the fact that she gets equipment cards seems to mean that she's not actually a shitty creature, she's a relevant tutor that will become a beater very shortly, unless you've already got a nastier guy in play.
Tidehollow Sculler - oooops, not a mono-White Weenie, but seriously, it does exactly what White Weenie decks have wanted to do for aeons, answer random crap. Plus this deck protects it with Mother of Runes, meaning it may as well just be a 2/2 Thoughtseize without the life loss.
Now at the risk of invoking Pikula.dec, I think White Weenie can be fundamentally different from that deck without completely transforming, and I don't think it has to 'go tribal' to be successful. I *do* think it remains a metagame deck, and I *do* think that to escape that stigma it needs to be willing to look at other colors, and honestly I think Black is a better splash than Blue. Why? Blue inevitably leads to cards like Force of Will/Daze/Meddling Mage/Fathom Seer/etc, which generally lead to tempo hits on your behalf, not the opponent. Force is great in a dedicated control deck, or in a combo deck. But White Weenie is pretty cautious about its balance between aggro and control, and you can't afford to be bouncing lands and ripping cards out of your hand unless you're advancing your board position. By the time a White Weenie deck puts in enough Blue cards to support Force and Daze and start Pondering and Brainstorming enough to replace the ammo, it's just not White Weenie anymore. I should be able to play a threat *and* generate some kind of card advantage or tempo. Mother of Runes can do that, Stoneforge Mystic can do that, and yeah Meddling Mage kind of does that, but ever since MM was released there's been no consensus in the community as to whether or not that guy actually matters a damn. As for Fathom Seer... like I said, in a dedicated control deck, sure I'll Gush and make a guy. But if I'm looking to keep up on land drops via Knight of the WO or assemble Voltron with Mystic and SoFI? Tell me how returning two Tundras to my hand on turn 4 will help me achieve this. Meanwhile, while Blue is feeling awkward for WW.dec, Black's staples are one-shot aggressive investments, and that makes aggressive deck very happy. Thoughtseize you, Tidehollow you, next turn Knight otWO+Stoneforge into the right equipment card. I got three guys on the board and a Jitte in my hand and you have -2 cards, have fun with that.
Now after putting that out there, I want to ask the opinion of the board about a few cards that I'm thinking about but not sold on at all...
Steppe Lynx - in a deck with a billion fetchlands he's a 4/5. In this deck with Knight otWO, he can continue to be big into the later game and maybe even get randomly bigger, as in 6/7. I don't feel like this deck is hard-up for 1-drops since strong contenders are Figure of Destiny, Mother of Runes, and IMO Black discard spells like Thoughtseize. OTOH, if it's like turn 4 - 6 and we're out of lands to throw at the cat and we do indeed have a Black splash, it's not hard to decide which guy gets sac'ed to Cabal Therapy, or say Cataclysm. I dunno about Steppe Lynx.
Phantom Nomad - given that White Weenie's strategy these guys is usually based around gaining tempo and card advantage where one can, I wonder if this guy isn't actually worth looking at. For starters, Mother of Runes can prevent the loss of counters, which you'd probably be doing anyway if the guy weren't Phantom Nomad and just some 2/2 guy with a relevant ability, so there's that. Furthermore, it can block stupid shit like Lackey/Bob/Piledriver/things with an X/2 in the corner and kill it, while it just loses a counter. Additionally, if it's equipped with anything that boosts its P/T, it never dies to damage. Stoneforge Mystic can fetch Sword of the Right Colors and suddenly Phantom Nomad can swing and/or block with absolute impunity. Having said that, it seems a bit weaker than Knight of the Holy Nimbus and KotHN doesn't get played all that often (but it probably should).
White Weenie won't be viable until one of the following problems is fixed:
1. White Weenie has very narrow and limited capacity for disruption.
2. White Weenie has very narrow and limited draw and/or card advantage.
#1 is hard. Mono white doesn't have counters. Or discard. And given how most of its best creatures cost two white, Wasteland's hard to run too. Instead it gets a range of narrow and unique abilities.
#2 might be the closer to being fixed. Knight of the White Orchid can snag land, Stoneforge Mystic can snag equipment, but there's not really enough there just yet.
I would start off with playing 4 port and 4 waste as well as aether vial pretty much take a page out of goblins play book and swarm. I sure you can have a favorable zoo matchup and be about 50-50 with thresh especally since the printing of stoneforege mystic. I def don't think you would be a strickly worse version of goblins because your best matchup zoo is one of goblins worst matchups not to mention you stomp goblins as well. You cant be playing slow cards like 4 drops or anything even geddon or tribal. Like if you stick to guys who are amazing whenever you can end they game in a fast and explosive fashion while raping their lands. It will probably not be the best aggro deck out there but i would def call this deck viable in all but the most combo saturated metas although there are far better aggro deck out there.
4 stp
2 jitte
1 sofi
2 o ring
4 vial
4 steppe lynx
4 mother of runes
4 wethered wayfairer
4 stone forge
4 kor skyfisher
4 serra avanger
9 fetch
4 waste
4 port
6 plains
side
4 crypt
4 kor firewalker
3 abolish
4 canonist
Why does this deck beat Goblins? Or Zoo? Or Thresh? Why run 9 fetches? Why run fetches at all? These are the first things that popped into my head when I looked at your list. Besides, that looks an awful lot like DnT minus the Karakas package.
The fetches are there for Wayfarer shenanigans, I'm guessing.
Fetches make Steppe Lynx excellent. Kor Skyfisher just looks bad, though. There's much better options for this slot.
The fetches are for steppe lynx as greenpoe pointed out and the reason and the reason I added the skyfishers is to activate wayfairer and I belive flying is better than first strike so its not like they are strickly worse than knights when you don't have a lynx or way fairer. Though That list is not tested at all it was just a demonstration of a possible viable ww stratagy that the OP was asking about. And I think that keeping the lands on the board under 3 and swarming your opponent could work in some metas. As opposed to playing big mana spells like planes walkers and ranger of eos. I think that your zoo matchup wholud be favorable as would your goblins matchup. But a matchup like thresh or countertop would be around 50-50 because if you resolve vial they will have a tough time winning. The skyfishers could def go but I think they would work well with the serra avengers providing reach. If I cut they i would go with solitari priest or knight of the medowgrain. Also adding lionin bola to the equipment package might be a good idea.
Wasteland activation via Wayfarer/Skyfisher just seems so poopy. When were you planning on casting your own spells, exactly? The best White Weenies tend to cost WW. Between having few lands for Wayfarer, and those lands you fetch to tap for colorless, and you throwing those lands at decks who will eventually start grabbing basics anyway, I feel like that plan is suboptimal.
One card I'm a little surprised no one has discussed is Knight of the Holy Nimbus. I find that his effect gives people more bother than it seems it should; Pay 2R to Bolt him? Nice tempo sink Zoo. And really, a good White Weenie deck needs to grab tempo wherever it can. He has the capacity to boot out most of the 'protection bears' that White Weenie has classically played. Plus he has flanking. Flanking! What the fuck! And by the time opponent doesn't mind paying 2 extra just to kill it, either MoR is online (should be already!) or we've assembled Voltron and he's wearing good equipment. I find no real fault with Knight of the Holy Nimbus.
Two points: 1) "Not being able to find a fault" with a card is maybe a decent method of card selection in Limited. In Legacy right now, cards have to be good. Only at most the 8 or 10 best white creatures ever printed will ever see play in White Weenie.
2) If you can't find a fault with Knight of the Holy Nimbus, you're not trying very hard. He has abilities that White Weenie doesn't need (he's somewhat hard to block, and somewhat hard to get rid of), but he's not reliably a blocker or an attacker. He's going to be outsized by every creature in the format, that means if you use him to attack/block, your opponent can just pay 2 to get up a card (keep in mind that's the same amount that you paid).
What about Honor of the Pure. White has 3 two power 1 drops, which played along with Mother of Runes, Sigiled Paladin, and Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte you have a pretty efficient deck. Running that many 1 drops makes Wasteland Possible, and Weathered Wayfarer attractive. Coupled with STP and Path and maybe Oblivion Ring? The question really comes down to whether or not Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard/Isamaru are actually any good. Maybe they're not. What are the best Power/Toughness white creatures?
theoretical decklist...
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Savannah Lions
4 Elite Vanguard
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Sigiled Paladin
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Honor of the Pure
3 Crusade
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
4 Wasteland
15 Plains
That's the best I can do, and it's not bad. I opted for Wayfarer over Mother of Runes. 7 Crusades might be a bit much, but it could be awesome. I'm gonna try and get this deck together and take it for a spin...
Last edited by Bardo; 06-07-2010 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Added 'cards' tag.
If I still stand beside my assertion that White Weenie remains a metagame deck - that is to say, a good aggro-control deck in the face of other aggro-control decks - then Knight of the Holy Nimbus easily fills the role of the protection Knights that used to be a critical part of the deck. Angel Stompy used to play like 8 pro-red guys because of Goblins. I don't think this deck needs to gun quite as hard for Goblins unless it's really showing up, so why bother with the old protection Knights when there's one guy who essentially has 'protection from damage' until you slap a Sword of Whatever or a Jitte on him, by which point his ability has served its purpose?
It's just not true that he dies to every creature in the format, Flanking means that he will never be chumped by anything less than a x/2 and on the attack kills things with a 3 in the corner. That's pretty much the entire (non-goyf) Zoo deck, Merfolk before the Lords come down, every Goblin, etc. The kinds of opponents that have the mana to "just pay 2" when he's on the attack aren't going to be throwing down anything threatening before turn 4 at the earliest. I play this guy and I've had success; I watch as Maelstrom Pulse suddenly becomes the dumbest 5-mana kill spell ever, or as an early Knight meets an early Tarmogoyf and my Knight stalls the game long enough for me to draw removal or Stoneforge or equipment. As Lightning Bolt turns into shitty Carbonize. As Engineered Explosives waits a turn too long to matter. As Merfolk taps out to kill it and doesn't have the mana to counter Knight of the White Orchid --> Stoneforge --> SoFI. If the opponent's removal isn't Path to Exile or Terror, Knight of the Holy Nimbus may as well have his own personal Trinisphere.
You also have to consider the kinds of creatures he gets played next to. For starters, Mother of Runes will basically always enable whatever you have on the board to outlast, so to that point it's true that the 2-drop Knight could be anything. But this deck tends to want to play things like Stoneforge Mystic, so your guys are generally equipped to deal with whatever random guys the opponent is playing. Aven Mindcensor is a retarded bird that can prevent target opponent from cracking fetchlands or finding answers. Knight of the White Orchid is great for maintaining mana parity and also gets used to accelerate into 4 land on turn 3 - sooner if you play Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox. Ethersworn Canonist gets boarded in vs. combo; who do you blow the removal spell on? If we're just talking about tempo, Holy Nimbus is all over that shit and it holds a Sword of Fire and Ice just as well as most of the other random 2-drops people want to throw in here. I have success with this guy; I threw him in year and a half ago and never looked back.
Are you speaking a different language than English? Specifically, one where this isn't a serious recommendation for a terrible card?
Only if you're speaking a language where you don't actually have to rebuke anything, just mention how terrible something is and move on.
I'm not interested in destroying a thread over an opinion over a card; I find that Knight of the Holy Nimbus fills the role of the random protection bears that WW has classically played, especially when the Knight in question had protection from the wrong color.
I also happen to think that WW's matchups are significantly improved by adding Black, in which case your options expand to the point where, no you don't have to run Knght of the Holy Nimbus. But this thread isn't about splash colors.
Yeah, why would I have to rebuke anything? Do you actually question that I'm wrong... that knight of the holy nimbus is bad?
Knight of the Holy Nimbus is bad for a few reasons:
- The opponent can just pay the cost.
- Pridemage is everywhere, so any equips going on him get blown up, making him a largely irrelevant 2/2 with neato abilities.
- He's a ten-turn clock, which is too slow for a single creature that we expect to be as out main beater.
See how well that works? I feel like I actually have something to talk about.
Yeah, the cost can be paid - but again, if we're a metagame deck (as in don't bring this deck to an Iona Reanimator party) then the question is when and why. Cards like Engineered Explosives and Maelstrom Pulse can't hit a Knight sooner than turns where they can represent 4 and 5 mana respectively. And by those turns, you should play right and be dropping equips that don't cost the same as your guys do (SoFI/LS), have Mama Runes active, or have a larger threat in Exalted Angel. I recognize that it's not the same as having a Silver Knight standing against a legion of red red Goblins - but if one is in a position to be worried about Goblins then your maindeck should look a tad different. I don't have that concern here.
Pridemage is a dick and a valid concern. I prefer not to live in fear of the answers though; Pithing Needle belongs in the board of this deck, ne? If not for other sick things that can jank up your gameplan, things much worse than Pridemage. And like many things, the correct answer is usually to play right; answer the guy via PtE/StP before you actually throw an equipment out there. But really if the concern for not playing Knight of the Holy Nimbus is watching Pridemage blow up equipment cards, I think the concern is valid inasmuch as you shouldn't ought to be playing a deck that leans on equipment so much in a meta with Qasali Pridemages errywhere.
As for being a ten-turn clock. Most of the solid WW guys are. Even Serra Avenger has to wait until the midgame to come down, so for all her vigilant flying goodies she may as well be a 'slow clock'. If there were a playable 3/2 for WW I think it'd be in contention over most of the guys we think about running. I mentioned Steppe Lynx earlier, but the more I play that card in other decks the more I fucking hate it. That guy has Blastoderm's disease; it gets chumped until it doesn't matter anymore, and god forbid there's so much as a Lava Dart somewhere out there to ruin his day. White Weenie doesn't usually deal in huge clocks besides using Stoneforge Mystic to make a brick house out of some bloke with a Jitte. Even Exalted Angel is just a 4/5, there's Tombstalkers and Ionas and Sphinx of the Steel Winds and shit out there.
I will say that given the success other decks have with Noble Hierarch and also given the propensity of this deck to equip one mans and turn him sideways for great victory, my interest has been piqued by suggestions of Sigiled Paladin. He doesn't seem like he stacks up against Hierarch in that he's not +1 mana, but my deck never got rid of Ancient Tomb and definitely plays Knight of the White Orchid and Chrome Mox, so maybe the Exalted bonus is worth a damn. Maybe.
It is, trust me.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote