Well, to put the problem into more context -- every deck in legacy either needs to be able to fight broken or do something flat-out broken on its own (preferably both, though most decks lean towards one side or another). Zoo can't fight broken, but it makes up for its pathetic combo matchup by playing the best creatures in the game, combined with a some reach with burn spells. WW loses out on Bolt, Price, Nacatl, Pridemage, Goyf, Lavamancer, etc, and for exactly what? Zoo doesn't mind losing to combo so much because it can deliver a thrashing everywhere else. WW can't fight broken either and it has even fewer options to interact with broken than Zoo does. And for what? Other than a stable manabase, WW doesn't have anything Zoo is jealous of.
I'm not saying that there isn't a workable WW build out there. Maybe there's one with enough synergy to make the cut, but just from a general standpoint, there's not much point in losing Zoo's good critters if it doesn't fix Zoo's biggest problem. "Worse beaters and still can't beat combo," isn't the tagline you want on a deck.
White Weenie's advantage is that you can't wasteland it since it's mono. The problem is that Zoo puts the same clock with one or two land what White Weenie does with two or three land. It's just not broken enough.
There's no reason not to splash at least one color, you're not getting any advantage by sticking to one color and running a bunch of Karakous anyway. Blue is definitely the best splash since it fixes all of white's problems (or you could look at it from the perspective of someone in a different thread: white fixes blue's problems).
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
Certainly your position has merit. But not as much as you seem to think it does. In my experience, Karakas-Mangara simply ends a lot of games. And aside from all the obvious advantages you are ignoring with one color you get Rishadan Port added to your Wastelands for a significant mana denial package. What I think you want us to believe (everywhere I look you are saying so) is that your deck is some sort of clear improvement. More likely, it is better than stuff like D+T in some metagames and worse in others, not that the comparison is even particularly apt since there are plenty of other differences.
Originally Posted by Bardo
I think it's possible to make a viable weenie deck as long as your deck has a valid strategy that takes advantage of them. "Playing smaller creatures than my rival's" doesn't sound like a good plan.
Of course, but as long as you play more creatures than your opponent does, and/or you can remove/protect your opponent's/your own creatures, size doesn't matter. I think the only way to make mono white a competitive archetype is to exploit its own strenghts. Death'n'Taxes focuses on tricks, while Angel Stompy focuses on fast beatdown. I personally play Angel Stompy, and I think both Stoneforge Mystic and Basilisk Collar (I play smaller creatures than yours, but beware, they have Deathtouch, and I play more of them) are the cards this deck needs in order to compete. Stoneforge Mystic is by herself a draw engine, since she can fetch for equipments which provide raw card advantage. And she is a stand-alone threat, since as I already told in the deck's discussion, she is only virtually a 1/2. Fetching for Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice makes her swing for 5 (Jitte still needs to charge, though), which is an accepted clock for a *single* creature. The +1 you get from Mystic is what the deck needs to counterbalance its own weaknesses. I don't know much about D'n'T, but I think both Angel Stompy and D'n'T simply need more pilots. I always get a positive Win/Loss record each tournament, and since I'm a terrible player, if that happens, it means the deck has a chance.
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
But he's not making this point merely out of some sort of need to pat oneself on the back. If we had come up with "Craw wurm tempo" we wouldn't be trying to tell everybody it's the best. We only do that because it's true.
So it's obvious you should splash a color, I think everybody who has responded to this point also agrees.
So which color? Okay:
Green is a terrible compliment. Green and white do pretty much everything the same. You lose to combo
Red sounds reasonable, since it offers reach, but you still lose combo.
Blue and Black are really the only feasible choices. I myself had considered white with black for a while, but it turns out this really is much worse than blue. Basically the difference is, instead of drawing cards, you pay life to draw cards. Instead of your opponent paying mana to walk into your countermagic, you pay mana (and possibly even life) to go over to the other side and take his threats away.
Okay, so it's blue now. Now what should we run in the deck? Well here are some good creatures that you would've run in any white weenie deck:
Mother of runes
Weathered wayfarer
Serra avenger
Jotun grunt
Knight of the white orchid
stoneforger mystic
Okay... it's good to run equipment now, so run 2x jitte.
You're blue, you should obviously play brainstorm, FOW, daze, maybe also spell pierce
It's obvious you should play swords
You need more creatures to support equipment, and more blue to support FOW. Run fathom seer.
You run a lot of creatures, run aether vial.
I just don't see a point of divergence unless you live in a metagame where it's like 100% elves or something. Then you probably don't pack white weenie in any case. But if you commit to playing white weenie, you literally can't stop adding UW tempo cards until you get to like 56 cards or so.
With green you can play Gaddock Teeg and Qasali Pridemage, by splashing blue, you can play Meddling Mage, but Gaddock Teeg seems better. The best reason not to splash blue is that you open yourself to:
1. Wasteland and Stifle
2. islandwalking merfolks
On another call, would it be feasible to assemble reasonably fast the Kaldra set using stoneforge mystic and flickering effects (whitemane lion, flickerwisp, stonecloacker, etc)? The idea looks awesome
I've always looked at Angel Stompy as White Weenie's spiritual successor. Old-school White Weenie decks used to play a couple quick, efficient creatures, a Crusade or two to make them semi-beefy, then cast Armageddon to seal the win. Angel Stompy is quite similar in approach, although it uses equipment instead of Crusade and Cataclysm/Parallax Wave instead of Armageddon to break the game open.
I think Angel Stompy has the best shot at being Tier 2 competitive in the current meta. True, it does not have a white Goyf, but it's removal is strong, it's creatures are P/T efficient with excellent abilities, and it doesn't get absolutely hosed by the most commonly played sideboard cards (because really, who is packing 4x Anarchy these days?).
EDIT: To the above poster, wouldn't splashing Green also open you up to Stifle (Windswept Heath) and Wasteland (Savannah)? I don't understand how splashing only Blue makes you susceptible to Stifle and Wasteland. Also, Stoneforge just needs to fetch Jitte in order for you to win; the Kaldra and gating shenanigans seems unnecessary and inconsistent.
Saw a version of this build recently on MTGSalvation as an extended deck. It was designed by a German guy, can't remember his name just now. This might be the type of direction WW needs to go in order to be successful. I made some minor changes to adjust it for Legacy.
EDIT: german guys' name = Tobias Henke
Creatures
4x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1x Knight of the White Orchid
Token Generators
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Spectral Procession
Enchantments
4x Honor of The Pure
2x Crusade
4x Suppression Field
Artifacts
4x Chrome Mox
3x Damping Matrix (cursed totem/null rod?)
Lands
1x Karakas
17x Plains
Sideboard
4x Ravenous Trap/Tormod's Crypt
2x Swords to Plowshare
3x Rule of Law
2x Kor Firewalker
2x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Damping Matrix
1x Crusade
This approach maximizes whites variety of hatebear effects while making good use of white's token spells and various anthem effects. Seems like the most viable white weenie strategy for Legacy. In many ways, this is just a beefed up hatier, tokenier version of D&T. Less tricks, more taxes. I think however, that I dislike the lack of both Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger.
With green splash you play Tarmogoyf first and then probably QPM with Gaddock Teeg in the sideboard. This shows again how totally OP Tarmogoyf is since he solves white weenie's biggest issue - which is putting a big beater on the board for the mid game and he also singlehandedly gives white weenie a plan B if the opponent gets a sweeper off against the army on turn 4.
Well obviously if they have Tarmogoyf they can do something broken and they can also stop the opponent from doing something broken (Tarmogoyf) to them. So he clearly solves at least part of that problem also.
Seriously, the biggest problem white weenie has is that their weenies are smaller than they can afford given the extra benefits they bring to play. Goblins get haste, Elves get mana, Merfolk gets blue (which is broken) and black gets cheap creatures that can beat 1-on-1 effectively.
So you are saying that you have considered everything and there is no need to argue because you and your clone (Forbiddian) have already discovered the best possible deck? Gee, this sounds familiar. (Honestly, this is 2 accounts for one person, right?)
Lolz! - Bardo
I can't decide if it is amusing or just annoying to see the way you two think about this. You have listed the exact creatures in your deck as the only ones anyone should be using from an entire color. You managed to argue against my point with "So it's obvious you should splash a color, I think everybody who has responded to this point also agrees.". And that was it. No presentation of reasons given. "Green is a terrible compliment. Green and white do pretty much everything the same. You lose to combo" Well, Gaddock Teeg and Tarmogoyf would like to have a word with you about that. "I just don't see a point of divergence unless you live in a metagame where it's like 100% elves or something." "We wouldn't be trying to tell everybody it's the best. We only do that because it's true." This is beautifully obtuse. The entire way you two are presenting your argument is in a fashion that wants very much to avoid opposing opinions and move straight on to the "pat on the back" part.
If you are so certain that your deck is perfection, and you don't simply seek attention for that belief, why on earth would you even be posting about it? This site is for the betterment of every deck on it. There is no such thing as a perfect deck or perfect strategy. As long as you live in a dream land, your deck will never improve.
Originally Posted by Bardo
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16249
This guy placed 1st out of 30 beating all sorts of powerful decks.. this is the deck this is what I would personally do to make it better.
I would replace STP with Exile.
I would replace Jotun Grunt with Aysen Crusader
Aysen Crusader is a 2+*/2+* that has stars equal to the number of Soldiers (and Warriors) you control.
SO lets say with 5 soldiers you have a 7/7...
I think Jotun Grunt + Tormod's Crypt is redundant. Maybe replace Tormod's Crypt even with Relic Of Progenitus instead accomplishing much the same thing.
*
creature [23] * this is the key to this deck + the aether vials
4 Catapult Squad
4 Deftblade Elite
4 Field Marshal
4 Icatian Javelineers
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Longbow Archer
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Swords to Plowshares
enchantment [4]
4 Shared Triumph
artifact [3]
3 Aether Vial
land [22]
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mutavault
14 Plains
4 Wasteland
* the sideboard for this deck is amazing pretty much perfect against the metagame. but I think it has a little too much graveyard paranoia considering how strong the soldiers are at removal on their own
Sideboard:
1 Jötun Grunt
4 Disenchant
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
4 Tormod's Crypt
These lists need 120% more Spectral Procession, especially lists that may be running Honor of the Pure or things of that nature.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Marshalling Cry over Spectral Procession for me. Needs 120% more marshalling cry. At least in this guy's deck I pointed to I am surprised it is not in there but I guess there is limited space. I would take out the Shared Triumph for it maybe if anything in his list.
it's 1WW sorcery that gives +1/+1 to all of your attackers and gives them all vigilance plus cycling for 2 and flashback for 3W. You could use it so that all the soldiers abilities can be used when they are attacking. Flying is really silly in a soldier deck I mean what for? Just use Raise The Alarm it is good enough..
Wait was this a thread about making WW viable that had the Hardy Boys come in and say "obviously WW should splash a color, obviously that should be blue, and obviously you should use the Nogoyf deck we made."
If that were the best deck in the format wouldn't it have at least won a single tournament?
Lolz x2! - Bardo
I don't think I could have laughed harder at a WW thread. Ugh...
On to WW though, running a lot of tiny creatures is worse than running a few big creatures unless they have a lot of synergy. Soldier lords will help that (especially one that gives first strike), but equipment will as well. Basilisk Collar and Jitte offer ways to beat goyfs and other creatures that are scarier than yours. Remember, you're paying 2 for two 1/1 soldiers and they're paying 2 for a 4/5 creature. Not only do they have the creature that answers yours, they have a much faster clock.
I think the best version of Soldiers is running a stompy build with Chalice, Trinisphere, and Captain of the Watch, though. I haven't tested one, but it looks powerful and disruptive.
EDIT: I tried out soldier stompy for fun on MWS, it's actually pretty good but I won't post a list until I make it a bit cleaner
Here's my favorite quote so far, against NO bant:
bloon stops looking its Grimorio...
<bloon> Ok
Phoenix Ignition taps Snow-Covered Plains
Phoenix Ignition taps Snow-Covered Plains
Phoenix Ignition taps Snow-Covered Plains
Phoenix Ignition plays Field Marshal from Hand
<Phoenix Ignition> Ok?
<bloon> fuck u bitch
<System> Player Lost
Last edited by Phoenix Ignition; 02-21-2010 at 07:56 PM.
Needs more Isochron Scepter.
I've recently been intrigued with the notion of building Boros Deck Wins with Duergar Hedge-Mage and possibly Kor Firewalker somewhere in the 75, although a large part of that is wishing that either were viable. The problem with WW is that the somewhat more stable manabase doesn't change that fact that white as a color doesn't support aggressive as well as any other color does, in large part thanks to the lack of tribal support. Elves and Goblins can both generate stupid amounts of card and mana advantage if left unchecked in the midgame, Merfolk has the entire "being whilst beating whilst the best color in the format" thing going for it and black.. splashed green for Tarmogoyf. There just aren't any good, aggressive, linear strategies requiring a heavy commitment to white that won't end up being optimized into Zoo (well, there is D&T, but the Karakas shenanigans have only gotten worse since that decks connception and it is more of a midrange deck anyways).
Played something like that for years. Basically Preeminent Captain + Mirror Entity + Enlistment Officer is busted enough, Burrenton Bombardier is surprisingly not-horrible and Crib Swap is decent with Chalice and keeping the Soldier count up. Too bad that's about it for Tribal support. Granted Noble Templar is pretty swell in place of that last plains, Elspeth is the best "Equipment" any white stompy deck can ask for and Jotun Grunt might survive to attack every once in a while but.. eh. At 6 mana Captain of the Watch is unplayable; don't bother.
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