Is there a way to make White Weenie a (somewhat) viable strategy?

[Bardo]

Let's not turn this into that other thread again.

[Nelis]

I see nobody has mentioned Ajani Goldmane. I've put together my own version of ww a long time ago and it evolved from aether vial/toolbox ww to toolbox ww and now it's just ww. I've played with Elspeth for a while and it is really good but now I'm into Ajani. I always thought Elspeth to be a better top deck because at least you can make a 1/1 token when your board is clear. But I realized that in most cases you've behind then anyway (especially vs aggro). It's much more important to have your creatures be at least as big as your opponents which means being 3/3 nowadays. I run a lot of first strike creatures so a 2/2 first striker becoming 3/3 permanently and have vigilance until end of turn works because even when attacking you're not open to a counter attack in your opponents turn. And with Mother of Runes added to the mix you have a better early game vs Zoo. It's still not an easy matchup though but Goblins and Merfolk are on the other hand. List:

// Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Sigiled Paladin
3 Knight of the Wild Orchid
3 Serra Avenger
2 Ranger of Eos

//Other permanents
2 Jitte
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Ajani Goldmane

//Instants
4 Path to Exile
3 Swords to Plowshares

20 Plains

Cards I'm not decided on yet:
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain ( Misread at first but it 'only' removes permanents from the game which makes it not that good)
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Eternal Dragon (instead of a 4th Knight of the Wild Orchid)
1 SoFI

A general sideboard (with combo in mind) would me something like:
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Chalice
4 Wheel of Sun And Moon / Relic / Crypt
3 Random stuff like Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, art./ench. removal, maybe even EE. Or something to ease the Zoo match up.

In my opinion WW is not such a bad deck as a lot of people think as long you play in in the right meta. Which means a meta with not too much Zoo and not too much combo. But the most important thing is that it's a fun deck to play.

[Bardo]

Pi4meterftw and others - This is not a discussion thread for UW Tempo / NoGoyf / Whatever. Several points have been raised about the value of other colors, tribal themes, etc. re: WW. Keep to the discussion at hand or take it to another thread or site. Just deleted a big pile of posts -- many of which were pretty good. Consider yourself warned.

[Citrus-God]

Pi4meterftw and others - This is not a discussion thread for UW Tempo / NoGoyf / Whatever. Several points have been raised about the value of other colors, tribal themes, etc. re: WW. Keep to the discussion at hand or take it to another thread or site. Just deleted a big pile of posts -- many of which were pretty good. Consider yourself warned.

I wouldn't say UW Tempo is a White Weenie deck, but it does have characteristics that would make White Weenie a viable metagame deck in Legacy. For example, Angel Stompy was a metagame deck that stomps only in Aggro concentrated metagames, due to the fact that Legacy at the time was still (and still is) populated by fast Aggro decks. But what separated Angel Stompy from conventional WW at the time (WWW being it's contemporary) was that Angel Stompy was a Midgame deck as well (even though WWW was as well, the creatures were always constantly outclassed if Jitte wasn't in play, and Angel Stompy had acceleration which made it's creatures threats much sooner compared to WWW), which allowed for it to trade for and/or take out bigger creatures with cards like Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte thanks to it's accelerated mana base.

UW Tempo in it's very core is no different. I can understand why Pi4meterftw and Forbidian think UW Tempo is the most optimal form of White Weenie, considering it's also a more versatile metagame deck. UW Tempo can play Aggro Control and Midgame, which shores up a lot of weaknesses decks like Angel Stompy had, such as being unable to properly fight Control and Combo well. This is a very good reason to play UW Tempo over Angel Stompy. Angel Stompy will almost never in it's life be able to fight Combo unless it also wants to weaken it's Aggro match-up, which is the best reason to go in with it in the first place. You could sideboard for it, but you only want so much acceleration in your opening hand to make this work. But, by then, it's more like White Workshop Aggro at this point.

But if we had to discuss strictly White Weenie, I think Angel Stompy is the best pure White Weenie deck that could ever be conceived at this point in time, and still be competitive as a metagame deck. And yes, I'm agreeing with what Nelis said: White Weenie is only good in a certain metagame context. It's also a better choice over Combo in Aggro concentrated metagames because Combo is hard to play properly, and playing WW allows you to make less mistakes compared to playing Combo. It's a lot like playing Farkle when you're ahead by 2000 points against your contemporaries: you either slow roll it, or you keep gambling when you're already ahead. Not to say that Angel Stompy takes no skill to play, because it requires you to do combat math, but you won't have to deal with making variations and calculations while playing combo. The math in playing combo gets harder when you have to calculate hate post-board. With Angel Stompy, you will only see Artifact and Creature hate, and it's very easy to play around/into those cards, so post-board games will be very similar to pre-board games 65% of the time.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Look up the abilities the soldiers I suggested have.

Icatian Javelineers. Kills stuff.
Catapult Squad? Kills stuff.
Deftblade Elite? Calls stuff out that doesn't want to die, then your dudes gang up and kill it.
Aysen Crusader? or Jotun Grunt.. wahtever.. when all this stuff is dead, writhing on the battlefield, swing in for like 6 points of damage or something since your deftblade elite is bringing everyone to the 'arena'.

That's the way this is supposed to work. the Longbow Archer is a good nemesis to the Dark Ritual'd Hippie for example or other flying beats like Vampire Nighthawks.

The decks to be worried about are combo decks. I think that is about it it handles things pretty well with it's sideboard. Goblins? Tivadar's Crusade is a one sided wrath for 3.

[Forbiddian]

Above deck looks really good.

I'd run 4x Tivadar of Thorn and 4x Kor Firewalker as well just in case Goblins ever gets out of hand.

[undone]

White weenie can only be made viable in one way. Burn all the tarmogoyfs.

Beyond that it would require WotC to print some WW cards with prot green or on the level of devout light caster that can target green/tarmogoyf creatures.

[Nelis]

White weenie can only be made viable in one way. Burn all the tarmogoyfs.

Beyond that it would require WotC to print some WW cards with prot green or on the level of devout light caster that can target green/tarmogoyf creatures.

There's Spectral Lynx, which I've tried but wasn't of much use besides being a 2/1 wall with protection from green. Tarmogoyfs aren't really that big of a problem if you run removal. And with the inclusion of Mother of Runes you can keep them in check. In my experience Tarmogoyfs have a hard time growing bigger than 3/4 nowadays anyway because the format is so fast. This means you can afford not to block him a few times and if they keep them back that's fine too because it gives you time.

Above deck looks really good.

I'd run 4x Tivadar of Thorn and 4x Kor Firewalker as well just in case Goblins ever gets out of hand.

Goblins can run out of hand but in my experience you don't need that much hate. I ran 2 burrenton forgetenders before in one of my earlier builds (without Mother of Runes) and that was enough at the time. But I have another nice solution that also works vs goblins and anything red: Absolute Law.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

White weenie can only be made viable in one way. Burn all the tarmogoyfs.

Beyond that it would require WotC to print some WW cards with prot green or on the level of devout light caster that can target green/tarmogoyf creatures.

But this is exactly what Jotun Grunt, Catapult Squad, Deftblade Elite and Icatian Javelineers are designed to do. Hell, throw in a Kjeldoran Outpost or two for good measure. Make more dudes if you are playing Aysen Crusader and Grunt in sideboard or something every dude you get off the ranch makes your crusader bigger. I realize Crusader is not a soldier but it has a default power of 2/2 so it is no slouch. This for a long time was one of the most broken Homelands cards (the rules text said each Hero.. of which there was only Benalish Hero) it was sort of like getting a 2/2 or 3/3 for 4 mana. Maybe a 4/4 for 4 mana at best it was real garbage but now it has been fixed completely after the grand creature type revision it is more on a level playing field with a 'goyf or a Juzam Djinn.

This deck this guy made I believe very strongly in it I really think it fixes all the problems ww has to deal with. It is like playing a red sligh deck.

If only there was a Vigilance giving liege I should find one then this deck is sick.
Mobilization will have to do
I might prefer Serra's Blessing

[Nelis]

If only there was a Vigilance giving liege I should find one then this deck is sick.
Mobilization will have to do

Give Ajani a try.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Serra's Blessing is better. Honestly.

White has no card draw or mana accel to speak of. I could play tithe but that is just lands.
What might be a good plan is instead of playing 24 lands to play 22 and with two Tithe it would help a little. Or maybe even 20 lands and a playset of tithe. But I want to be playing soldiers not mana drawing. This deck playing vials doesn't need consistency like that.

dunno.

Card draw and being board wiped is all I really worry about with this deck

[Glitch]

Not sure what you boys got against WW.... I been running it for years with no issues so far. I can outrun borros and overpower a goyf if for some odd reason the damn things lives a turn. With WW all you really need to do is play smart, you have power and speed on your side if you bothered to think a deck up yourself and not find some other morons internet deck. My list has Mass removal and singles so I can deal with goblins elves Goyfs and whatever else for some odd reason just happens to be in my way. there is plenty of mana ramp in WW if you play it right, hints "Knight of the White Orchid". Combo that with Kor Skyfisher and a steppe linx and perhaps a fetch land and bingo, you got a 6/7 One drop. For a slower list I advise Honor the pure(Only speaking of standard for the record) Or for a faster list like mine run 8 fetch lands and steppe lynx with a couple of simple toys. I'm playing at a Tournament in Hatizburg MS today and I'll be running WW, the list is as follows.

Ajani Goldmane x4
Stirring Wildwood x4
Behemoth Sledge x1
Path to Exile x4
Steppe Lynx x4
Kor Skyfisher x4
Sunpetle grove x3
Stoneforge Mystic x3
White Knight x4
Knight of the White Orchid x4
Kor Firewalker x4
Sigil of Distinction x1
Basilisk collar x1
Oblivion Ring x2
Day Of judgement x2
Snow Covered Plains x8
Arid Mesa x4
Marsh Flats x4

I play tested this list with several varriants. Steppe Lynx was Elite vanguard... but he was to damn boring. Just a Vanilla 1 drop 2/1 that dies almost instantly. With fetches Steppe lynx is an easy choice over Kor Duelist or Vanguard. I tried to run the list with Elspeth because I listened to the morons that said she was the best. They were wrong. In BANT she is better... With WW. You won't limit yourself to attacking with just one creature. You swing with the team. Thus vigilince and permanent counters from Ajani are the beats. Please feel free to email me with any feed back at pwnydwn@gmail.com
I responde to all emails almost instantly. If you have any questions about white I run this list or want to know how to run it I'll be happy to answer.

[DragoFireheart]

Here's some reported White Weenie decks:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy



Honestly, I don't see mono white weenie ever becoming a powerful contender. There are 2 big problems that it has at the moment:


1. Combo decks. WW is simply too slow to fight combo decks. It lacks the raw power of Zoo, the disruption of Merfolk or Counter-Top Decks or the ability to combo itself like Reanimator. When you are paying three mana for some solider dude, Zoo could be going for the alpha strike, Counter-Top may already have the lock with a Goyf down and Reanimator may already have a Iona naming white, smashing you in the face and not allowing you to play your white weenies since you only have one color. In short, what WW may do, many other decks do it better and can compete with combo.

2. Creature Size. A little strange to hear since the idea of white weenie is to swarm your opponent with creatures, but white generally does not have very large creatures. When Zoo decks pay 1 mana for a 3/3 and other decks pay 2 for a 3/4, or some decks pay 2 for a 5/5 flying demon, your Elite Vanguard doesn't seem that great. Sure, there are some bombs like Jötun Grunt but then he is good outside of a WW deck. Another problem with white weenie is that it's tribal, Soldiers, just isn't developed enough. Many of the soldiers that do stuff cost 3 or more to do the same ting Goblins can do. Also, Soldiers don't really have anything as broken as Goblin Lackey or Goblin Piledriver for such a low cost. Preeminent Captain is somewhat comparable to lackey in ability, but not in cost, while I have not seen anything from Soldiers that is comparable to Piledriver and if there is, it is likely to be more expensive. The WW are not big enough for what you pay for them, essentially making them a turn slower when compared to goblins. In short, WW as it stands now is just a bad version of goblins.

[bakofried]

I think it would have to be a complete metagame deck. For instance, Canonist in the MB may catch ANT by surprise, but what will it do against Zoo? On the other side, Mother of Runes is decent against Aggro, but what happens in the Ichorid MU? There really needs to be a balance found.

I do love the Catapult Squad, though.

[bowvamp]

Ok, so I know this isn't the most budget list around, but I kinda love the card Tithe. It basically "draws" you two plains if you can get to a lower land count than your opponent. Welcome to:
Not-Stax

10 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Chrome Mox
4 Tithe
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Somnomancer
4 Mistmeadow Skulk
4 Spectral Procession

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Here's some reported White Weenie decks:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy



Honestly, I don't see mono white weenie ever becoming a powerful contender. There are 2 big problems that it has at the moment:


1. Combo decks. WW is simply too slow to fight combo decks. It lacks the raw power of Zoo, the disruption of Merfolk or Counter-Top Decks or the ability to combo itself like Reanimator. When you are paying three mana for some solider dude, Zoo could be going for the alpha strike, Counter-Top may already have the lock with a Goyf down and Reanimator may already have a Iona naming white, smashing you in the face and not allowing you to play your white weenies since you only have one color. In short, what WW may do, many other decks do it better and can compete with combo.

2. Creature Size. A little strange to hear since the idea of white weenie is to swarm your opponent with creatures, but white generally does not have very large creatures. When Zoo decks pay 1 mana for a 3/3 and other decks pay 2 for a 3/4, or some decks pay 2 for a 5/5 flying demon, your Elite Vanguard doesn't seem that great. Sure, there are some bombs like Jötun Grunt but then he is good outside of a WW deck. Another problem with white weenie is that it's tribal, Soldiers, just isn't developed enough. Many of the soldiers that do stuff cost 3 or more to do the same ting Goblins can do. Also, Soldiers don't really have anything as broken as Goblin Lackey or Goblin Piledriver for such a low cost. Preeminent Captain is somewhat comparable to lackey in ability, but not in cost, while I have not seen anything from Soldiers that is comparable to Piledriver and if there is, it is likely to be more expensive. The WW are not big enough for what you pay for them, essentially making them a turn slower when compared to goblins. In short, WW as it stands now is just a bad version of goblins.

No.
WW has fine tools to stand on its own against the problems mentioned above. Storm Combo can be disrupted by Orim's Chant, Mana Tithe, Abeyance, Angel's Grace, Children of Korlis, Aethersworn Cannonist, Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance etc, Wheel of Sun and Moon is a tool against graveyard abuse and mill effects, Rebels can play around both CounterTop and Iona while keeping opponent's Iona/Goyf tapped with Whipcorder, and faster pure aggro isn't a big issue because of first strike blockers, banding and timewalking with Childrens of Korlis. The true issue are board control decks, but a skilled WW player can win anyway. I don't wanna claim WW is a power contender, but it is a deck with very nice power/money ratio and can be tuned for specific metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

No.
WW has fine tools to stand on its own against the problems mentioned above. Storm Combo can be disrupted by Orim's Chant, Mana Tithe, Abeyance, Angel's Grace, Children of Korlis, Aethersworn Cannonist, Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance etc, Wheel of Sun and Moon is a tool against graveyard abuse and mill effects, Rebels can play around both CounterTop and Iona while keeping opponent's Iona/Goyf tapped with Whipcorder, and faster pure aggro isn't a big issue because of first strike blockers, banding and timewalking with Childrens of Korlis. The true issue are board control decks, but a skilled WW player can win anyway. I don't wanna claim WW is a power contender, but it is a deck with very nice power/money ratio and can be tuned for specific metagame.

If what you are saying is true, then decks like you described would have been showing up.

[Nelis]

Point 1 is no reason for white weenie not to be a contender at all. Zoo hardly ever wins from combo yet it is played. And white does have much better weapons to fight combo.

Point 2 is much more valid. I bypass that problem by putting in Ajani Goldmane and run Sigiled Paladin which works better than you might expect but Zoo will always be a tough match up. Apart from MoM I don´t play any protection from red creatures (maybe I should)

On white weenie.
- I stopped running Aether Vial because in my experience WW wants a high threat density as possible
- Run Stoneforge Mystic and a Jitte or 2 to get an edge vs aggro. (my version doesn´t have any real problems vs merfolk and vs goblins btw)
- Why run Mana Tithe if you can run Knight of the White Orchid?

I must say that I haven´t tested Chrome Mox but it seems to me that you don´t want to imprint your creatures. In my experience, if you run Knight of the White Orchid eventually you gain tempo but it will be at turn 2, 3 or later. Knight of the White Orchid works well with Figure of Destiny

[Vacrix]

Whatever happened to Life.dec? That was basically white weenie. Infinite life on turn 3 is pretty hard to beat if you aren't combo. It might not be viable anymore given the fragility of a creature based combo.

[claudio.r]

Here in our meta, a guy has been able to get very good results piloting a whte weenie list that is essential an all around metagame list. I don't have his complete list but he plays something like

4x aether vial
4x mother of runes
4x serra avenger
4x ethersworn canonist
4x jotun grunt (i don't know if 4 is the correct number)
4x silver knight (with firewalker in the board)

in the spell area he has

4x path to exile
3x silence

i don't know the rest of the list he olays, but his deck can hava a lot of mainboard answers for every kind of deck.