Planeswalker RockTable of Contents
- Introduction
- The List
- Deck's Philosophy
- Card Choices
- Side-board
- Matchup Analysis
Introduction
As for my many other decks, I don't have time to play tourneys, so that I'm just a builder/tester. But don't fool yourself this deck has been extensively tested and it showed exceptional results. If I could have been to Madrid, it's the deck I would have played.
The basic game plan is to optimise the use of Pernicious Deed. The best way I found was to forget about Tarmogoyf and to take advantage of its synergy with planeswalkers. Indeed, deed does not blow planeswalkers, so that you can use them to force the opponent to overextend and then raze the board, except for them.
The main issue with this game plan was to handle early game and to enter late game. Discard and STP are here to survive early game and prepare late game. Veteran Explorer is here to go to late game faster. Top is here to ensure land drops and to have a stronger late game than any other deck.
As for an introduction of the MUs, I'll be short and simple: it absolutely destroys anything that is not combo (Ichorid included) or Merfolk. Merfolk is an aggro deck that can use countermagic to gain some tempo and win before we can control the game. It also has standstill which annihilate the card advantage provided by Deed. About combo, well the deck is definitely not built to beat it and it's not 7 discard spells with no clock that can help. But as we will see later the SB plan against combo is quite efficient.
The List
Deck's PhilosophyCode:Creatures: 12 4 Veteran Explorer 4 Eternal Witness 4 Kitchen Finks Walkers: 7 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 3/4 Ajani Vengeant Sweepers: 8 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Pernicious Deed Discard: 7 4 Thoughtseize 3 Cabal Therapy Remaining slots: 5 3 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Recurring Nightmare 1/2 => debatable slot Mana-base: 2 Forest 2 Plains 1 Swamp 1 Mountain 4 Verdant Catacomb 4 Windswept 1 Wooded Foothills 2 Bayou 2 Savannah 1 Scrubland 1 Taiga Side-board: 2 Innocent Blood 4 Hide / Seek 2 Jund Charm 2 Crime / Punishment 4 Extirpate 1 Tormod's crypt
The main idea of the deck is to chumpblock, sword, discard, choose your draw with top during the first turns. The opponent will be enclined or urged to play several threats. Once he does, we sweep the board with deed. If the opponent still does not want to (or can't) overextend, we start to play Planeswalkers. From here, he'll die if he does not find any solution. Don't forget that you don't care at all to lose your creatures. So chumpblock to gain time. Don't hasistate to play witness in order to find your 4th land drop too. The deck has enough redundancy to deal with almost everything. Just focus in expadning your mana base during the first turns.
What happens if Deed gets discarded or coutnered? Here Witness comes into play.
What happens if you can't find Deed? It usually means you've found a lot of other stuff. The Recurring Nightmare plan is also very effective and the Planeswalker are always difficult to get through. The deck is not that much Deed dependant actually.
Did you notice that this deck is completely Spell Snare proof? you can argue that it's a bad curve but you'd be wrong. The deck plays enough 1CC spells and top to know what to do with its mana for the 2 first turns. If you don't get 2 manas by turn 3, you're anyway in deep shit. But don't worry, this does not happen often.
Cards Choices
Mana Base
You can't imagine how much I worked on it. The deck plays 4 colours (imposed by deed and Ajani). It requires 4 lands to be able to do most of the plays. It requires 6 coloured mana to play anything: %W%W%G%G%R%B. It has fetches and Veteran Explorer to find the lands you need.
Quite obviously the 6 basic lands are the 6 coloured mana required to play anything.
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
About the duals, it is built in order to fit the most G possible, becasue green is the main colour of the deck. However I wanted to have all 4 colours with only 2 lands, so that Taiga and Scrublands are complementary. As black and white are the secondary colours, they are more represented than Red, which is only a splash for Ajani and sideboard. It was still important to be able to fetch Red either with fetchlands or Veteran Explorer, even if I always prefer to have a Taiga in play (that I fetch only when I play Ajani), than a Moutain, because MD, the red mana is usually utilised only once.
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
The fetches. They are numerous (9) for 2 reasons : colour fixing and shuffling effect with top. They are all G-centric. The Mountain can be fetched only with Wooded Foothills. As I said, it's not a problem because fetches will rarely search for Mountain : rather Taiga in order to play Ajani and then you don't need red anymore, so that it can be wasted, you don't care much.
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept
1 Wooded Foothills
Creature Base
Those are squared. They all are wrecked by Leyline of the Void but not that much sensible against other graveyard hate.
4 Veteran Explorer : Card absolutely essential in this deck. It brings the game to late game where the deck shines. You won't like seeing it sworded in aggro MUs. Luckily, aggro decks prefer damages (zoo/burn/sligh/gob), sacrifice effect (gob) or Path to Exile (zoo). Having it pathed is definitely not a problem. This little guy is a nightmare for gob and merfolk (although they have a lot of basics) and for tempo thresh. Obviously it's the perfect food for Cabal Therapy.
4 Eternal Witness : Obvious card in a control Rock deck. Regrowths control cards. Food for Cabal Therapy. Comboes with Recurring Nightmare and Primal Command. Do not hesitate to play it just to get back a fetch or for a Sword to Plowshare. It's also often used to fight discard and counterspells.
4 Kitchen Finks : Really a great card in this shell. Blocks twice. Gains 4 life. Comboes with Recurring Nightmare. It's the creature you want to see against gob, merfolk, zoo. The best anti aggro card. It's also a quite good finisher (well it's the best of the deck at least).
Board Control
Only 8 cards finally. But the best ones. Very complementary since sword is here for early single and targetted removal while the other is universal multiple untargetted removal.
4 Swords to Plowshares : Obvious choice. Could almost be Path to Exile since we already play Veteran Explorer that fetches basics for the opponents. But life is definitely a less essential ressource than mana for the oppoenent. With witness, I often raised my opponent's life over 40. So what? Let's take control of the game then, he will be forced to concede.
4 Pernicious Deed : Basis of the deck. Discussed all over this opening post.
Hand Disruption
Discard has been included to the deck in order to resolve our best cards through countermagics. Obviously, they are synergistic since Thoughtseize reveals the opponent's hand and Cabal Therapy can use this information for a perfect naming. To this effect, Brainstorm is problematic. Remove it as soon as you can. Often name it with Cabal Therapy. The best 2-turns starting hand : Thoughtseize turn 1. Turn 2, Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer. Flashback Cabal Therapy.
4 Thoughtseize : The life loss is not a big matter when we play 12 life gaining cards MD (+4 in SB). The best turn 1 play of the deck.
3 Cabal Therapy : Great card against control. It's a combo with Veteran Explorer. It is also sometimes used to remove Ichorid's Bridge From Below or to put a creature into the graveyard in order to start doing nice stuff with Recurring Nightmare.
Planeswalkers
The casting was fast among planeswalkers. These are the only 2 eligible planeswalkers for this slot. Two main reasons for that: they are the only ones that have a "+" ability that stalls an opposing attacker (token created by Elspeth and Stasis effect by Ajani). They also are the only planeswalkers that have a good ultimate ability (one-sided armageddon and indestructibility are pretty awesome, specially in this deck that plays deeds and that makes the opponent fetch his basics).
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant : the best planeswalker. The problem I have with it (reason why it's not *4 and Ajani *3) : it's too much aggro oriented. The +3/+3 and flying ability is rarely relevant. But it blocks Tarmogoyf all night. It often puches the opponent to use a removal spell on a token in order to force Tarmogoyf through the defense, but you eventually sword the Tarmogoyf and they lost a removal for nothing. Its weakness at stalling compared to Ajani is its inability to deal with creatures with evasion and the fact the token can be dealt with although the not untapping affect of Ajani cannot be surprisingly avoided. Its strength is the fact it can create several blockers if the opponent has no creatures. It can stall untapped creatures. It can also block creatures equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice. Aside from stalling, creating tokens is useful against Smokestack effects. Another good thing about Elspeth: it kills opponent's Elspeth. It's in most case the most efficient way to deal with it.
4 Ajani Vengeant : A great card that did not find its place in legacy yet because of its colours (well it's a bit played in Ultimate Walker). The first ability is a creature staller. This functionnality is the main motivation for the card but it serves to a lot of other things: it deals with Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold recursion. Remember that the permanent does not have to be tapped for you to use this ability. It can sometimes colour screw the opponent. The second ability is life gain: great against burn and zoo. It's also targetted removal that can be used when the board can still not be controlled (not that much of a problem if you lose it after dealing with 1 creature, gaining 3 life and occupied a creature at attacking it). And finally its ultimate is a nightmare for control decks. I plan to reduce it to 3 copies because sometimes we're off-red, and because of the legendary-like planeswalker's rule.
About other planeswalkers, some have nice features:
Sarkhan Vol which can steal creatures and you sacrifice them to Cabal Therapy or Recurring Nightmare. A lot of fun but overkill. And the other abilities are too weak.
Ajani Goldmane which can make persist Kitchen Finks almost forever. Another sexy synergy that do not reach Vengeant and Elspeth power. Once more, the other abilities are weak. Moreover, it can't be played together with Vengeant.
Garruk Wildspeaker provides mana and god knows how much mana this deck requires. It also provides quite decent blockers. First problem: when you are able to pay 4 to play Garruk, you don't need mana boost that much. Second problem: it can't stall with "+" abilities. Problem 3: anyway, the ultimate ability is crap. Problem 4: a too low loyalty.
The other planeswalkers are not discussed because they are too expensive and/or useless and they require coloured mana out from the %W%W%G%G%R%B which the deck relies on.
Three things to remember about Planeswalkers:
- They are cards that must be dealt with very fast because they have great ultimate abilities. The ultimate abilities are very often played, simply because sometimes, we need them.
- They are cards that urge the opponent to play several threats and then they lose to pernicious deed.
- They must be good into play. Elspeth generally nets you at worst 10-15 life points because the opponent needs to take care of the tokens and to kill it. It's quite the same about Ajani Vengeant which deals with a creature, gains 3 life and still requires the opponent to attack him. You must not be afraid to lose a planeswalker. You have redundancy of them and you play witness to play them again.
Other Stuff
These are fillers, but nevertheless important slots.
3 Sensei's Divining Top : best control card ever. Wins long game. One trick in order not to lose it stupidly when you sacrifice deed with Veteran Explorer in play. Activate it at your Upkeep Step so that you put it on top and draw it at Draw Step. Then sacrifice deed search for your basics and play again top with the basics you've just fetched. In the same way you force the opponent to lose his top or not to fetch for his basics. Nice against Quinn for instance.
1 Recurring Nightmare : This card can be absolute nuts. It's insensible to anti-enchantment if you don't make the mistake to pass priority with it in play. Just play it, activate it. Sometimes also, you don't put your creatures in the graveyard and I don't like to have this deck too much graveyard dependant.
1/2 => debatable slot. See below.
These 1/2 slots used to be 1 Umezawa's Jitte and 1 Ajani Vengeant. Jitte was not bad, but a bit win more and I eventually was pissed to destroy it regularly (and it was the single target for Spell Snare and I disliked the fact it suddenly made them useful). It's only recently that I completely decided to remove it for something else. I'm still nto sure what. Until then, I slightly tried some other possibilities: Primal Command and Shriekmaw. I would like to try other cards too.
Primal Command : it's a bit of an army knife. It's a MD anti-graveyard stuff, which is the only game plan that CAN (I precise "can", because it does not happen often anyway), it's also a removal for every non creature permanent (put the card on top and shuffle library => lost your card), it gains life and it can chain its effects by tutoring Witness into a little combo. My main worry about this card is that it's another very expensive spell and I did not want Jitte to be replaced with another long term card. But if it comes in to replace Ajani, then it might be fine. I tested it a little in place of Jitte and I have to say that I was impressed by its power.
Shriekmaw : another early creature removal, a (very good) target for Recurring Nightmare and a MD solution to reanimated Iona, Shield of Emeria on white. That's what I tested lately instead of Jitte. It fitted more the role I wanted to replace Jitte. I never tested Shriekmaw + Primal Command in place of Jitte and 1*Ajani. It looks good since Command can fetch Shriekmaw. That's what I'd recommend right now even if it's still untested.
Other possibilities for these 2 slots:
Yavimaya Elder : mana + tempo + nice with Recurring Nightmare
Sakura-Tribe Elder : mana + tempo + a target for Recurring Nightmare
Heartmender : combo with Finks
Murderous Redcap : awesome against tribal but useless against the rest.
Sensei's Divining Top#4 : obviously not a bad choice
Duress : to strengthen the early control
Recurring Nightmare#2 : I'm not found of this because I don't want the deck to be too much graveyard dependant.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood : mana + combo with Finks
Grim Discovery : mana + combo with Witness (but it's a target for Spell Snare)
Side-board Choices
As I said earlier, the only way to be beaten in the long term is the graveyard recursion. That is the reason why I play 7 grave hate in SB. They are complementary and can serve several purposes. I also add untergetted removal and an Extract game plan against combo that can be efficient, depending on the list you're playing against.
2 Innocent Blood : against reanimator, Progenitus and any deck that plays a lot of creatures like goblins or zoo.
2 Crime / Punishment : Deed#5 and #6. It finds a niche use against reanimator and Enchantress too (against enchantress it's good too). Great against Counterbalance too.
4 Hide / Seek : gold card. Enter it (not necessarily *4) against almost everything. For Hide when you expect your opponent to enter Pithing Needle or Leyline of the Void. For Seek, against burn and sligh zoo in order to have more life gain, and against Natural Order and tendrils combo for both. Against Survival either for Hide and Seek. Both sides are good.
2 Jund Charm : against tribal, against loam decks, and against a bit everything using the graveyard actually.
4 Extirpate : main grave hate. Preferred to Tormod for several reasons. The main one is the fact it owns combo set-ups with Mystical Tutor, Ill-Gotten Gains, Lim-Dul's Vault. It can also remove the discarded kills which is appreciable.
1 Tormod's crypt : I keep 1 because it's the best anti graveyard with witness.
Matchup Analysis
Goblins
I was really concerned about it because I thought the deck would face difficulties to win the long term. I was wrong. Goblins does not want at all to reach the longterm. My testings are 5/10 preboard win when Goblin plays and 10/10 preboard win when Rock Planeswalker plays. The deck has 12 great answers to a turn 1 lackey : 4 seize (either for lackey or better for the CA creature), 4 swords, 4 Veteran Explorers. It also has 3 Cabal Therapy that rarely hit wrong since Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader reveal their CA. Witness is a great card dealing with 2 creatures (blocking 1 and swording 1). The same for Finks. In this MU the Planeswalkers are not that great, in particular Ajani.
SB: +2 Innocent Blood +2 Jund Charm -3 Ajani -1 Primal Command
Post SB, they will probably enter Perish. This is not that frightening. Our change are not that great neither (Jund charm is cool, but not that much better than deed). The MU is even a bit more in our favor.
Overall, it's a very easy MU.
Merfolks
Merfolk is an aggro deck that can use countermagic to gain some tempo and win before we can control the game. It also has standstill which annihilate the card advantage provided by Deed. You should still have the edge with the surprise factor. Compared to the goblin MU, the big difference is countermagics and the fact it can tap (or go through) your blockers. Standstill is a threat as being "more countermagic". Try to play around Daze, even if you don't always have time for that. Shoot the lords with swords and Ajani. Because they never have haste, Ajani is better than Elspeth in this MU. Because they have no Lackey, Innocent Blood is not necessary. However, Merfolk will probably never recover from a well placed deed. It's slighty favorable preboard.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +2 Jund Charm -3 Elspeth -1 Primal Command
Post SB, they will probably enter Submerge and Mind Harness. This is not that frightening netiher. The MU should remain the same.
Overall, it's a slightly positive MU.
Ichorid
Almost impossible preboard, you still have sorcery speed solution to Bridge from Below with Cabal Therapy and Shriekmaw (which can remove bridges before destroying the targetted creature). And a recurrent (but very slow) anti-graveyard game plan. As for almost every deck, it's very difficult preboard.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +4 Extirpate +1 Tormod's Crypt +2 Jund Charm -3 Elspeth -3 Ajani Vengeant -1 Shriekmaw -1 Sensei's Divining Top -1 Cabal Therapy
Post board, we have a lot of solutions. I did not playtest enough to tell something definitive but I see it becoming very positive balancing the overall MU.
Overall, it's an even MU.
Reanimator
They have to make good choices preboard. It's not that difficult. The best they can do is reanimating a high CC creature with shroud like Inkwell Leviathan. Reanimating Iona is not bad neither, but usually in first turns, you hide white (Bayou is generally the first land you fetch). Preboard, it's defavorable but it's not that "easy" for Reanimator. Once you have reached 9 manas, you can deed their threats with no problem.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +2 Innocent Blood +4 Extirpate +1 Tormod's Crypt -3 Elspeth -1 Sensei's Divining Top -2 Pernicious Deed -2 Kitchen Finks -1 Veteran Explorer
Post-SB, Iona is inefficient. They are forced to Show and Tell or to play around a lot of graveyard disruption. It becomes very positive for Rock Planeswalkers.
Overall it's a positive MU.
Ad-Naudeam Tendrils
Pre-board, it's absolutely impossible to win except with the golden start, Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy + Veteran Explorer. But even then, it's still hard to win because you give them 2 basics. You can also win by your opponent having extreme bad luck. And that's all. Maybe 10% chance of winning game 1.
SB: +4 Hide/Seek +4 Extirpate -3 Elspeth -1 Pernicious Deed -4 Swords to Plowshare
Post-board, the game plan is to extract their kills and annoy them with your shuffling effects., making their brainstorms inefficient in hiding their key cards. Against most ANT builds, Seek is a turn 2 kill, so that the MU becomes favorable games 2 and 3.
Overall, it's an slightly unfavorable MU.
The Epic Storm
Pre-board, it's exactly the same as against ANT.
SB: +4 Hide/Seek +4 Extirpate -3 Elspeth -1 Pernicious Deed -4 Swords to Plowshare
Post-board, the game plan is still the same. But, the big different is that Seek is not anymore a turn 2 kill, so that the MU remains unfavorable (but better thanks to extirpate) games 2 and 3.
Overall, it's an very unfavorable MU (maybe unwinnable).
Dream Halls
Quite the same as TES, even if this deck is less consistent. It's very difficult preboard.
SB: +4 Hide/Seek +4 Extirpate +2 Innocent Blood +1 Jund Charm (at least it's red and it can be used to ramp Hide/Seek) -3 Elspeth -3 Ajani -4 Swords to Plowshare -1 Shriekmaw
Post-board, the game plan is still the same. But, the big different is that Seek does almost nothing. The card is sided in mostly for its ability to deal with Dream Halls as an instant. So that the MU remains very unfavorable games 2 and 3.
Overall, it's an unwinnable MU.
Burn
Preboard. Let's recap: 4 Swords, 4 Finks, 4 Ajani, 1 Primal Command. They are 13 cards that gain life. You can add Witness to this list because it recurs life gain cards. Elspeth +3/+3 ability can be used to gain more life with swords. Even if, the clock is slow, the deck can gain life faster than Burn hurts us. You can also avoid fetching nonbasics in order to make their Price of Progress useless. It's favorable.
SB: +4 Hide/Seek +1 Extirpate -1 Shriekmaw -4 Pernicious Deed
Hide takes care of enchantments that could come in in order to prevent us from gaining life (Sulfuric Vortex and/or Everlasting Torment). Seek can also gain 6 life searching for Fireblast. It's still favorable.
Overall it's a good MU.
Zoo
Preboard. Zoo can't deal efficiently with Veteran Explorer. Zoo is chumpblocked all day then its board gets sweeped. Except if you get stuck at 2 lands during 2 turns, you should win it preboard. You can also avoid fetching nonbasics in order to make their Price of Progress useless. It's very favorable.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +2 Hide/Seek +2 Innocent Blood -3 Elspeth -3 Cabal Therapy
Hide/Seek is entered either to gain some life (still Fireblast) against a sligh build or to prevent them from becoming crazy with Sylvan Library. It is also a response to Pithing Needle on deed. It's even more favorable.
Overall, it's a very easy MU (if not "unlosable").
UW Tempo aka NoGoyf
I'll just make a quote.
Yeah. You're not dreaming. pi4meterftw recognised to have a bad MU with UW-tempo. After our little testing, it looks like he did not realise that wasteland recursion was probably not enough since I play 6 basics and I have a lot of ways to tutor them. To complete the MU analysis, I'll just give the SB plans:Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment -1 Primal Command -1 Elspeth
UW Tempo has not enough pressure to make their counterspells relevant. So that we can take time to develop and ensure key spells (deed mostly) with discard backup.
Overall, it's a very easy MU.
Dragon Stompy
As always, it depends a lot on who plays first but we play 6 basics. There is the risk of turn 1 Trinisphere/moon effect/Chalice of the Void on the draw that screw us, but most of all we have great chance to recover from either ones. If it's trinisphere, I never keep a 1-lander hand on the draw with this deck, so that we should hopefully find the 3rd required land quite easily if we don't have it already in hand. If it's a moon effect, I play 6 basics + 3 tops to find plains+STP or forest+Veteran Explorer or anything else. I don't deny that we can be owned, but even in case of a turn 1 moon effect it remains quite of a gamble. Chalice@1 is generally sufficient information to become suspicious so that we are going to play a turn 1 fetch and hopefully succed to play deed and win from there. On the play, it's amost unlosable. We will open with thoughtseize, veteran explorer, top. All of which are usually enough to beat Dragon Stompy. It's slightly favorable to favorable MD. Only favorable because there is always a high chance factor against this kind of decks.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek +2 Innocent Blood -1 Primal Command -3 Elspeth -3 Cabal Therapy -1 Eternal Witness
Post SB, once you know what you play against, it's absolutely unlosable on the play. On the draw, it's also better than preboard, but theere is still the chance factor to take into account.
Overall, it's a favorable to very favorable MU.
Demon Stompy
If Demon Stompy does not play Braids, Cabal Minion, it's just like Dragon Stompy but easier because there is no moon effect. Their fliers can be annoying, but generally, you can sword them quite efficiently. Be careful of Sword of Light and Shadow that can prevent you from using STP. The key spell is deed as usual against chalice. Generally, you can't lose a game wher eyou find deed and you'll face some difficulties to win games where you can't find it. It's favorable MD (very favorable if it does not play Braids and slightly favorable if it plays it).
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek +2 Innocent Blood -1 Veteran Explorer -3 Elspeth -3 Cabal Therapy -1 Shriekmaw
Post SB, they will probably enter Leyline of the Void and Cranial Extraction both of which are big pain. They will also probably enter Perish which is a bad idea in my opinion. The MU gets slightly favorable post-SB.
Overall, it's a favorable MU.
Faerie Stompy
It's quite similar to Demon Stompy in the way they play a lot of fliers and it can be annoying sometimes. They just replace Trinisphere with Force of Will and Trinket Mage is a card to play 8 chalices. The problem with Trinket Mage is that they usually can't play it and Chalice during the same turn, so that you'll be able to play the turn 1 killer card : discard or top. They have FoW to deal with it, but anyway. So finally, Trinket is that much of a problem. It's favorable MD.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek +2 Innocent Blood -2 Veteran Explorer -3 Elspeth -3 Cabal Therapy
Post SB, their answers are not very impressive compared with Demon Stompy's. So that the MU is very favorable post SB.
Overall, it's a very favorable MU.
White Stax
Their only frightening card is Armageddon. Discard it as soon as you can. But the best way to save you from such a topdeck is to keep lands in hand and basics in the library. Destroy every Crucible of Worlds as soon as they Wasteland-lock you. Oblivion Ring can get rid of planeswalkers, so that a resolved planeswalker is not game won neither. But they have a lot of dead cards (Ghostly Prison, Smokestack, Magus of the Tabernacle) although we have none. MD, it's favorable.
SB: +2 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek -1 Shriekmaw -1 Primal Command -1 Swords to Plowshares -2 Cabal Therapy (depends a lot if you've seen big beaters such as Baneslayer Angel)
Post SB, Armageddon can be played more than in 4 copies. These are the only threats of this deck that has no clock. So, you really must be careful in not to much overextend your mana base. Apart from that, they will never stick their artifacts in play long enough to make any harm to you. Eternal Witness will mostly be used to recur the destroyed lands.
Overall, it's a very favorable MU.
Landstill (planeswalker light)
May play 1/2 [cards]Jace, the Mindsculptor[cards] and 1/2 Elspeth. Not more. They play a lot of creature removal that are pretty uneffective against you. Just, don't let them develop their planeswalkers and protect your key spells with discard. MD, it's very favorable because once more, they have more useless cards (Wrath of God, Spell Snare, and Swords to Plowshares to a lesser extent). Their main threats are planeswalkers and Humility. Humility is not that frightening because you can sweep it. Planeswalkers though must not survive too long. That's why we are still on a clock in this MU. MD, it's favorable.
SB: +1 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek -1 Shriekmaw -4 Swords to Plowshares
Hide / Seek is preferred to Crime Punishment in this MU because you will rarely have the opportunity to deal with several permanents at once. And Seek can help to deal with something Enlightened Tutored or to deal with top sometimes. Anyway, post-SB it's almost irrelevant since g1 will last 40 minutes at least.
Overall, it's a favorable MU that can easily turn into a draw.
Landstill (planeswalker heavy)
May play 1/2 [cards]Jace, the Mindsculptor[cards], 2/3 Elspeth and 1/2 Ajani Vengeant. Not more. It's quite the same than planeswalker's light except that they play as many planeswalkers as you do. And this changes completely the MU. Now, they can compete the long term game. MD, it's even.
SB: +1 Crime/Punishment +4 Hide/Seek -1 Shriekmaw -4 Swords to Plowshares
Post-SB it's almost irrelevant since g1 will last 40 minutes at least.
Overall, it's an even MU that often turns into a draw.
To be continued…
I also need to address the loam decks (positive too, their only real threat is Devastating Dreams but it's not played much anymore), non-blue heavy control (Train Wreck, Trisomy 21, Quinn, ...), enchantress, mana denial (Tempo Thresh, Team America, Pox, Eva Green) and probably others I can't remember now... so please give me some time.
If any of you thinks that I'm mistaking in a MU analysis, I invite him to test the MU on MWS against me. Just pm me and we'll find an arrangement
Last edited by Maveric78f; 03-09-2010 at 09:36 AM.
Nice concept. Have you considered Dark Confidant? Its great with SDT and you have plenty of sac outlets if it risks killing you. Is the avg cc too high for it?
Also, I don't see Bant Survival in your Matchup Analysis. At first it looked pretty weak because NO is hard to answer, but I think its worth mentioning that Hide//Seek is AMAZING if you can hit their Progenitus and gain 10 life.
Also, have you played against anything like Tempo Thresh or Team America? Your deck looks strong against them because of Veteran Explorer, but trying to support 4 colors looks tricky. Haven't you run into color issues?
Or the Iona, but yeah.
Have you considered Firespout ever?
Hide//Seek?
You say that ANT is around 50/50 (slightly unfavorable, you said), so what am I missing:
Odds of getting Seek: 44% (49% on the draw). Odds of Seek winning, assuming that they don't go off turn 1 or turn 2, and don't have multiple win cons: 87% (they draw it to hand 13% of the time).
Multiplying these together: 38%. It's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (since they could crap out/fizzle/mulligan and you could do the same), but the ceiling of your master plan working is like 40%.
And you said yourself game 1 is unwinnable, but you said the match is about even, so you must be expecting a 70% win ratio games 2 and 3 in order to make up for the gameloss and have a 50% overall match win percentage.
I see some cute tricks, like making Brainstorm harder to use to dodge Thoughtseize, but I'm not seeing a 70% game win percentage.
I like the idea of the deck. In your sideboard though, I don't think Jund Charm and Crime//Punishment are worth playing. It seems like Jund Charm is a weaker version of Tormod's Crypt/ Firespout. I would just use another Tormod's Crypts and work some Firespouts into the sideboard. Crime/Punishment seems kind of slow, although it might not be bad. I'm not sure whether or not it's better than Engineered Explosives though.
Also, have you considered running Garruk as maybe a one-of? In planeswalker decks, it's good to be able to have more than one in play at a time... Playing a third 'walker gives you a higher statistical chance of being able to have two different ones on the board at a time. And since green is your main color, it probably wouldn't require bending the mana base too much.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Call it "Planesrocker!"
Confidant is not in the spirit of the deck. The creatures I play are just chumpblockers. Confidant is a creature I want to protect and this deck has no way protect anything but my life total against creature assaults.
As I said, the MU analysis has to be continued. As an insight, all thresh variant are positive. The most difficult are indeed the Natural Order builds because a resolved Progenitus is something we don't handle MD, so that we have to discard them and anticipate their topdecks by removing all green creatures from the table. Post SB, Innocent Blood and Hide//Seek are golden. In general, all survival builds are easy because they tend to naturally overextend and then they lose to Deed. Just don't let them the time to put Iona in the graveyard.Also, I don't see Bant Survival in your Matchup Analysis. At first it looked pretty weak because NO is hard to answer, but I think its worth mentioning that Hide//Seek is AMAZING if you can hit their Progenitus and gain 10 life.
Also, have you played against anything like Tempo Thresh or Team America? Your deck looks strong against them because of Veteran Explorer, but trying to support 4 colors looks tricky. Haven't you run into color issues?
I also need to address the Aggro Chalice decks (which are obviously very easy), the Stax decks which are easy too, the heavy blue control decks (Landstill), which relies on the one that can resolve planewalkers (we are favored here because we play more walkers than them and we play Witness that are walkers 7-10), loam decks (positive too, their only real threat is Devastating Dreams but it's not played much anymore), non-blue heavy control (Train Wreck, Trisomy 21, Quinn, ...), enchantress, mana denial (Tempo Thresh, Team America, Pox, Eva Green) and probably others I can't remember now... so please give me some time.
Yes but not for long. Jund Charm is better in almost every way. It's instant and is can do other things. Deal 1 less damage is not really a problem because Zoo is already very positive. I like the fact that Jund Charm deals with Mutavaults too. Manlands can be difficult to get rid of.Have you considered Firespout ever?
For my MU analysis, I considered that the ANT player was playing only 1 kill. It's not always the case. Then I called it slightly unfavorable (40-45%). In order to get 41% of win after a 10% win on game 1 (because it has already happened to me to win g1), I just need 60% win in g2 and g3. I don't have this precision to claim it for sure but it looks sound to me. Mulligan if you don't have 1 Hide//Seek or 1 Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy and Extirpate are also good spells to earn some time. I know I have only 40% of chance to get Hide/Seek in my first 7 but if I had the chances of having it in my first 6 and 5, then it's far better.Hide//Seek?
You say that ANT is around 50/50 (slightly unfavorable, you said), so what am I missing:
Odds of getting Seek: 44% (49% on the draw). Odds of Seek winning, assuming that they don't go off turn 1 or turn 2, and don't have multiple win cons: 87% (they draw it to hand 13% of the time).
Multiplying these together: 38%. It's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (since they could crap out/fizzle/mulligan and you could do the same), but the ceiling of your master plan working is like 40%.
And you said yourself game 1 is unwinnable, but you said the match is about even, so you must be expecting a 70% win ratio games 2 and 3 in order to make up for the gameloss and have a 50% overall match win percentage.
I see some cute tricks, like making Brainstorm harder to use to dodge Thoughtseize, but I'm not seeing a 70% game win percentage.
If I Seek IGG, then they can't use LED. It's a problem for them. I can also Thoughseize Tendrils and Extirpate it if they have it in hand. If I don't see it in the library, then I Seek for IGG and on mly next turn I cabal/seize the tendril. There are a lot of scenarii. But I think that the main miscaculation in your math is the fact you denied I could mulligan. It's well known that if you mulligan to Oblivion, you have 80% chance of finding the card you're looking for.Odds of Seek winning, assuming that they don't go off turn 1 or turn 2, and don't have multiple win cons: 87% (they draw it to hand 13% of the time).
Crime/Punishment has Punishment but it has also Crime. But the most important in favor of it is the fact it cannot be needled. and it costs 4 to get rid of counterbalance when it usually costs 6 with Engineered Explosives (4 to play + 2 to activate). The strength of Jund Charm is that it does both: tormod and instant speed pyroclasm, it can also remove -1/-1 counter on Finks which can be relevant sometimes. Those 2 cards are the weakest SB slots but they also are the most generic. I admit that I used to play them as 3-of and that they're now only 2-of but I'm not thinking of removing them completely.I like the idea of the deck. In your sideboard though, I don't think Jund Charm and Crime//Punishment are worth playing. It seems like Jund Charm is a weaker version of Tormod's Crypt/ Firespout. I would just use another Tormod's Crypts and work some Firespouts into the sideboard. Crime/Punishment seems kind of slow, although it might not be bad. I'm not sure whether or not it's better than Engineered Explosives though.
Yes, I considered and rejected it, as you can see in my Planeswalker section.Also, have you considered running Garruk as maybe a one-of? In planeswalker decks, it's good to be able to have more than one in play at a time... Playing a third 'walker gives you a higher statistical chance of being able to have two different ones on the board at a time. And since green is your main color, it probably wouldn't require bending the mana base too much.
I thought about that. Thought also about:Call it "Planesrocker!"
- "Walking on the Moon" (reference to Sting's rock song)
- "Rock Band" (reference to the video game)
- "Pernicious Walker" (reference to Ultimate Walker)
- "Walk This Way" (reference to Aerosmith's rock song)
- "Rock & Walk" (reference to Rock & Folk or Rock & Roll)
MUs updated with aggro-chalice decks and UW-Tempo.
So now I need to learn to play control decks 'cause this one is brilliant.
Maveric78f, what do you think about Diabolic Edict in those 2 free slots? It deals with lone manland, Iona on white, Progenitus and every nasty creature they could land after you Deed the board out and also works through Chalice at 1.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I like the fact that my curve has no MD spell for 2 mana in order to make Spell Snare completely dead. Chalice@1 is hardly an argument against this. I'd prefer play 2 MD Innocent Blood. But I love my actual setting : 1*Primal Command and 1*Shriekmaw. The first can search for the second through Iona@W. Primal Command enables to win against Worm Harvest, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, against all kind of recursion actually. The same it true with Recurring Nightmare, so that I play 2 MD anti-recursion spells (or stronger recursion). Primal command deals with MD needles too. Shriekmaw is nice being a 2CC spells not being countered by Spell Snare. It's nice against Iona. It could be replaced with Fleshbag Marauder though, but I like to be able to play it turn 2.
We used Chainer's Edict in Enlightened Rock. We were pretty satisfied with the card, as The Rock actually reaches several situations where it can pay the flashback cost, making it slightly better than Diabolic Edict. We did run Diabolic Edict in the time we ran Isochron's Scepter, but those days are long gone and Scepter in The Rock isn't a good idea, we found out the hard way
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
There are 2 cards that I think you should be considering. One, I think you should run Volrath's Stronghold over Recurring Nightmare and two, I think you should find room for Bojuka Bog. Uncounterable effects are always very strong and those two help you ramp to walker mana without lowering the number of cards that *do* something. I would love to play against this sometime on MWS, what's your schedule look like?
I think you underestimate Recurring Nightmare's strength. It can go completely crazy while being indestructible (but counterspellable and discardable, in which case, it's witnessable). I really play it as a sorcery card with a free buyback and it's (almost) always how it has to be played.
Bojuka bog as a random slot without any means to use it as an instant is quite weak. Primal Command does not remove library => Ok. But it can be witnessed and it can tutor witness. It can also in some cases shuffle an annoying permanent into the opponent's library. It's also a serious kill against burn (eat 7 life gain + tutor finks or witness to repeat). Haunting Echoes could be good to but it's BB and it's not as versatile as Primal Command.
Both cards you are questionning are (between other uses) my only outs against heavy recursion control decks. The solutions you propose are faster to use but not powerful enough to guarantee to beat theses decks. Not beating these decks MD is a serious problem because the third game never finishes.
About Edict effects, as I said earlier I refuse to play 2CC MD cards except if I can see a strong difference. I like how Shriekmaw scales with the early/late game and how it interacts with Primal Command and Recurring Nightmare. As I said Fleshbag Marauder can be better by its ability to deal with Progenitus but it's 1 turn late so I don't know. I think that SnT decks will still be unwinnable anyway and NO-decks are quite easy finally because NO is their only serious threat and you can fight it with discard or by simply sweeping their board preemptively. Fleshbag has another intereting ability: it's a sacrifice outlet for Veteran Explorer.
Why don't you play Tarmogoyf? No room?
Kang, not to be a dick, but if you're going to post, do a courtesy to everyone else and read the thread. Mav took te time to explain why the deck eschews 2 drops. Also, if you look at how the deck functions, it favors utility over beats.
I think Pernicious Walker is definitely the dopest of all the name possibilities that you've come up with.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
It's well known that spells also require land. If you're going to mulligan for hate, it should be hate that doesn't fail randomly, like against this deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=31528, where you can't do anything other than wait patiently for death. I looked through 5-6 decks, and it seems about 30% of them are running two copies of Tendrils (which turns the matchup into an auto-win at >99%).If I Seek IGG, then they can't use LED. It's a problem for them. I can also Thoughseize Tendrils and Extirpate it if they have it in hand. If I don't see it in the library, then I Seek for IGG and on mly next turn I cabal/seize the tendril. There are a lot of scenarii. But I think that the main miscaculation in your math is the fact you denied I could mulligan. It's well known that if you mulligan to Oblivion, you have 80% chance of finding the card you're looking for.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but with my experience, a couple copies of Thoughtseize is not going to get you there, and an unreliable win con in Seek seems like a very weak copout, given how much time you'll give him to set up a kill. Of note is that combo players are playing Sadistic Sacrament against each other, so it's in their knowledge bank how to play around Seek or cards like that.
But anyway, I'll take you up on your offer to test the matchup. You said you think you have a better than 40% chance to win. I'd take a 3:2 bet against you winning (especially if I get to play a two tendrils version one match in three).
This deck is originally called "Walker Texas Ranger".
I´v got some experience with that rock-type.
Originally its played without Red. Instead of Ajani Vengeant we use Ajani Goldmane.
In Combination with Bitterblossom.
For that Combo we play Crime/Punishment over Pernicious Deed. Elspeth creates token too.
Veteran Explorer is not really good anymore.
Lots of Decks play basics.
For that Archtype of Rock you need definatly Removal ala Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse.
*sorry for the english*
I think he's right. I should have explained better why Tarmogoyf does not belong to this list. This deck does not need vanilla beaters. I would probably play Jotun Grunt (stronger earlier and dies when pernicious sweeps the board anyway) or Tombstalker because it survives deed and is a flier blocker. But I really felt I did not need them and that utility creatures, that are only creatures to chumpblock and to have fun with recurring nightmare is better.
I'm not sure what dopest means. I'd say that "pernicious walker" is too straightforward.
We don't really disagree. The MU I gave was in case they play only 1 copy of tendrils. I know the combo MU is a nightmare in general but Hide/Seek offers some outs.
But it's not that much a problem. If you look at the GP Madrid day2 breakdown, you'll see that there are more Zoo decks than all combo decks gathered, so that the choice of this deck was not that awful. I also think that this deck's SB can be adapted to wreck combo as Skeggi did in his Red Rock.
Your deck looks awful and your advises arecompletely off-topic. How can you say it's the same deck if you play the crappy Ajani Goldmane and no Deed. The goal of Veteran Explorer is not to make card advantage. Definitely not. It's to have a blocker to Lackey turn 1 and to go to late game very fast where the deck shines. Veteran Explorer is absolutely amazing in this role.
I've played some games vs 40+Lands yesterday. My general impression is that we are forced to play aggro here and that can't be good
Games 2 and 3 are winnable due to SB hate, but there is a problem: even 1 game can take forever. In tourney setting we should be able to win that game 1. Otherwise, there is a high possibility that game 2 will be draw due time and the match will be lost.
The best card preboard is Ajani Vengeant, but I learned the hard way that they can find Barbarian Ring and shoot AV down faster than he reaches 7 Loyality.
In this light, some MD gravehate (faster than Primal Command) is 2 debatable slots seems like not bad idea.
Possible things:
1) Maindecking 2 Jund Charms. Versatile, but too colorintensive for maindeck.
2) Jotun Grunt - I actually like this one. Early big blocker, can survive enough time to do serious damage after we Deed the board, steamrolls Loam-based decks and opposing tarmos, can be Recurred.
3) Loaming Shaman - stronger instant impact on the gamestate, but lesser stats that Grunt. Recurring Shaman wrecks GY-strategies.
4) Offalsnout - Yeah, I know, odd card. But it can RFG that pesky Loam or completely wreck Dredge for justat instant speed or surprise block something small.
Please respond if I missed something.
Also, I tried Garruk in Elspeth's slots and he has some good sides.
The -1 to create chumpblocker is worse than Elspeth's +1, but 3/3 > 1/1.
And the ability to skyrocket mana is relevant when you need to Deed out something huge like Tombstalker.
But the real thing is that the deck doesn't needanymore, so manabase becomes solid as rock. Needs more tests I guess...
Last edited by eq.firemind; 03-03-2010 at 05:02 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
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