Not one but two new articles, both FREE on the TP site for you all to read:
Part 1 - Thoughts on Breaking the Reserve List
Part 2 - Solutions to the High Price of Cardboard
In the first part I take a look at the price of cards and how the state of Legacy pertains to the Reserve List, and then in second part I look into a very feasible solution that I think would make most players happy. Check it out and let me know what you think I hit on, what you disagree with, and what you'd like me to touch on next time. Thanks for reading!
Imperial Recruiter would never be printed in a current set because of color-wheel concerns. Power level is fine. Loyal Retainers as an FNM foil is a bad idea, most stores would probably put them on ebay right away or something and prices would remain high. It would have to be a judge foil to really work (or player rewards; that way Wizards can send them directly to the customer who can then decide whether they want to keep it or sell it). Same issue with Dark Depths. Also DD is a rare and they don't print rares as FNM foils. Rare promos are reserved for judge foils, GP foils, and 20-event player rewards, Game Day prizes, prereleases, etc.
Loyal Retainers is fine as an uncommon on its own. I think the consideration of Entomb in a current format clouded your judgment there (and Entomb+Retainers doesn't even sound like a tier-1 combo to me). Look at Ressurection, it was reprinted in Time Spiral. Flavor is fine for white, they're number 2 at this sort of thing. Retainers can be cast a turn earlier than Ressurection, but needs to wait a turn to be active, so it is effectively at the same speed of Ressurection, and no one plays that (they might with Entomb, but is that really a tier-1 deck anyway?), so giving a more fragile out with Retainers is no problem.
But most cards, considering the recent power creep that has been had lately, would be fine in Standard or Extended. I like the idea of bringing back Mox Diamond. It would really help Extended, with Chrome Mox rotating out soon, and the formats have been fine when you're pitching a spell to make mana. This time you're pitching a land instead. Sure, the card can tap for anything, but you need to adjust your mana base more to accommodate the Diamond, whereas with Chrome Mox you just need to pick the least relevant card in your hand, so it balances out.
"Don't let your mind wander - it might not come back." -Braids, dementia summoner
The supply of Alpha and Beta Underground Seas would not go up in this scenario, so you kind of missed the boat. The number of people playing Legacy would probably go up if the duals were reprinted in mass, as cost is a huge barrier. This would increase the number of people exposed to the format and thus the demand for pimped out cards- which is where the high cost of Alpha/Beta Underground Seas comes from.In Stephen Menendian’s recent article Visiting Wizards, Reprints, and the Reserved List he posits that “You could print a million new Underground Seas in M11, and Alpha and Beta Underground Seas would probably not budge in their value or collectability. In fact, they might become more valuable!” Frankly, more asinine words and a conclusion based on many unaccounted for factors have rarely been written. The basic laws of economics tell us that if demand is relatively even and supply increases, price will naturally go down. Time and time again, history has shown us that when cards are reprinted (and supply is increased) they lose value.
So in fact you would be raising demand without altering supply. So Smennen's assessment is only incorrect insofar as it suggests a possibility. It is certain that the value of Alpha/Beta duals would go up in the event of a mass reprint. Unlimited and Revised Duals would almost certainly go down as they're not a luxury item but currently a necessity.
You also blatantly ignore numerous cases of cards rising in value as they're reprinted, such as Reflecting Pool and Alpha/Beta Lightning Bolts, the latter of which is the best comparison. Cards whose value comes from oddity may be threatened by a reprint- I had a playset of Underworld Dreams that plummeted in value when that was reprinted- but those whose value comes from high level of play do not.
I stopped reading at this point as it became obvious your articles were nothing but bad hack jobs. And I'm not interested in ad hominem arguments.
You also might consider trimming the verbiage.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
You're equating high prices based on rarity (original Legends printings, Pithing Needle) with hihg prices based on pimpness. Not many people opened Saviors of Kamigawa boxes, and the art and borders are basically identical from the Saviors to the M10 Needle. Ditto on Crucible of Worlds.
I talked to some Wizards guys at PT:SD. It was interesting to hear them say, "If people aren't complaining and crying that Magic is dead, we're not doing our job." They like shaking things up, and doing new and cool things. People complaining about this change is not prima facie evidence that the change is bad.
Your reprint suggestions are pretty ridiculous. Any card you reprint that is highly playable in T2 will go up. More to the point, I'm pretty sure your suggestions would destroy any reasonable format. Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter already see heavy play. So much for all the cool lands Wizards printed, right? Ancient Tomb was banned in 1.x, and you want to reprint it?
So Legacy people are complaining about the reserved list because a small amount of staples is on there (i think the writer missed some though, survival, dreadnought for example).
"10 Duals (ok these are important)
Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale
City of Traitors
Gaea’s Cradle
Undiscovered Paradise
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Mox Diamond
Moat"
Cradle, Tabernacle, Moat, Paradise are played in only specific decks, not even staples really. Most of your formats staples are not even on there..... so they can be reprinted regardless of the status of the reserved list. Now vintage players, they do have something to complain about.
Actually the demand for Alpha/Beta would drop noticeably, as aside from people looking for minty cards to complete their Alpha/Beta sets, the main difference between Alpha/Beta/Unlimited power has to do with the black borders, believe it or not. Any Vintage or Legacy player I've ever met who is remotely concerned about the aesthetics of their cards balances the extra cost of trading their cards to black border vs. the satisfaction they would get by looking at a more aesthetically pleasing black border. This might sound goofy, but it's true. For example, if I care about how my cards look (even though they all perform the same), it might be worth it to me to spend $350 on a Beta Mox Emerald, when I could instead get an Unlimited one for $295. That $35 might be worth the black border good looks to me. But if the Beta Mox Emerald was $500 compared to a $295 Unlimited one? Probably not for a lot of people. The black border is part of the things that keeps Alpha/Beta very high compared to all other printings. If they reprinted Foil copies I know TONS of people who would ditch their Alpha/Beta copies after about 30 seconds of thought. The market would drop.
It's pretty evident you don't or have never sold cards seriously before as a revenue stream, and certainly haven't recently. Alpha/Beta Lightning Bolts haven't really experiened a noticeable bump with their M10 reprint. They were $20 quite a long time ago, then down to $10-15 when rotating, and now they are what, $10-15 each? People don't need a black border Beta copy when ten million black border M10 copies exist, and when thousands of black border Foil copies exist. In certain scenarios you're right, cards might see a little bump in price temporarily while they're in Standard. Reflecting Pool was a $5 card and then jumped to $15 for a while (this was also the most playable it had ever been, even during its original printing), and now it's back down to about $5. But the amount of Tempest Reflecting Pools was a small amount compared to the amount of each dual land already in existence. Additionally, so many more packs of cards are opened now for drafting and case cracking that the supply is quite a bit more than it used to be, and print runs are gigantic nowadays. Believe it or not, massive supply does regulate the price of cards.
As usual your reply has been relatively worthless, but I appreciate the fact that you took the time to share your thoughts at least.
Tectonic Edge sucks balls, if we can be honest. The only reason Ghost Quarter sees any play whatsoever now is because Dark Depths exists in Extended and most decks simply don't have many other tools to fight it. Wizards' keeps trying to print cheap land destruction that borders on being playable but not too good, and has thus far printed mediocre cards.
The reason Ancient Tomb was banned in 1.x was because that was a hell of a lot more broken format than Extended is today. It was also much faster. To suggest that Ancient Tomb in today's format is anything like that is ignoring history my friend, and I think you're aware of how broken and fast that old format was.
Can you actually give me some legitimate examples where my suggestions would destroy a reasonable Standard or Extended format? I currently play all constructed formats and understand the power level of all of them, and the cards I suggested wouldn't really break anything.
Bingo! That's part of the point. You don't need to trample on the spirit of the Reserved List when most of the Legacy format's staples can already be reprinted in one way or another without problem.
Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.
Jason:
The facts in my article are simple:
1) Beta Underground Sea is worth as much or more than most Moxen, and 2/3s of Power Nine:
http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/L...+Edition+Beta/
Yet, there are 90% more Seas printed than Moxen. The point is simple: the quantity of Seas is print has very little affect on the price of Beta/Alpha power nine.Limited Edition Beta
$12391.89 / 683 volume
Most valuable cards
1 Black Lotus 1379.85 (0.00%) 6 volume
2 Ancestral Recall 860.00 (17.81%) 1
3 Mox Sapphire 791.00 (0.00%) 5
4 Underground Sea 583.00 (0.00%) 2
5 Mox Pearl 508.20 (0.00%) 4
6 Mox Emerald 493.90 (0.00%) 4
7 Mox Jet 490.95 (0.00%) 4
8 Mox Ruby 458.70 (0.00%) 7
9 Time Vault 455.00 (0.00%) 1
10 Volcanic Island 441.34 (0.00%) 5
11 Time Walk 405.01 (0.00%) 4
12 Tropical Island 316.17 (0.00%) 4
13 Timetwister 285.55 (0.00%) 7
14 Tundra 236.51 (9.83%) 5
15 Taiga 219.16 (0.00%) 4
You said that of my statement making exactly that point: "more asinine words and a conclusion based on many unaccounted for factors have rarely been written." Yet, the facts support me. Not you.
2) Original edition printings of Alpha and Beta cards do not lose value through reprints. My article carefully documents this in the case of Birds of Paradise, Wrath of God, and Shivan Dragon, which have each seen numerous reprints, but have not affected the price of Alpha and Beta, and arguably have increased their value.
Many other cards make this point: Mana Vault, Demonic Tutor, etc.Birds of Paradise (A) - $200
Birds of Paradise (B) - $200
Birds of Paradise (U) - $25
Birds of Paradise (RV) - $12.50
Birds of Paradise (4th) - $9
Birds of Paradise (5th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (6th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (7th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (8th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (RAV) - $10
Birds of Paradise (10th) - $10
Birds of Paradise (M10) - $6
Mana Vault:
Demonic Tutor:* Fourth Edition 2.08
* Revised Edition 2.01
* Unlimited Edition 7.84
* Limited Edition Beta 114.72
* Limited Edition Alpha 119.95
Swords To Plowshares* Revised Edition 4.99
* Unlimited Edition 7.85
* Limited Edition Beta 49.01
* Limited Edition Alpha 80.00
3) Alpha and Beta Underground Seas, and other A/B dual lands, have recently risen substantialy in price. The demand for Alpha and Beta dual lands is clearly related to the demand for dual lands generally, but it is none the less not the same.* Ice Age 2.38
* Fourth Edition 2.79
* Revised Edition 2.39
* Unlimited Edition 4.58
* Limited Edition Beta 15.20
* Limited Edition Alpha 23.84
If Wizards were to reprint dual lands in M11, I think the facts clearly show that prices on Alpha and Beta dual lands would not be negatively affected. If anything, I think they would go up since they would be legal in standard, and the demand for pimp duals, the demand for the A/B elite prints, which far outstrips supply, would increase. Prices, accordingly, would increase.
Prices only go down if the supply for a good is fungible or a perfect substitute. Alpha and Beta Underground Seas are not perfect substitutes, to say, Unlimited Seas or M16 Seas or FTV Seas, if they were to print the latter. They are functionally simiilar, but the demand is different.
Oh I thought it was a tap ability all this time. My apologies. Still, how much would a 3-mana limited Ressurection hurt the environment? The only reanimator targets from the big Legacy deckilists that are eligible are Iona and Akroma. I mean, Iona is probably the biggest problem, but I don't see anyone trying to cast Ressurection trying to grab a cheap Iona? If Hypergenesis isn't too powerful, how can this card really hurt?
Smmenem, you missed the Duel Decks Demonic Tutor and the Coldsnap precon Swords. I'm sure those printings completely killed Alpha/Beta prices.
In response to standard-legal printings, the only cards that need attention are ridiculous P3K cards and a couple corner cases:
Imperial Seal, Loyal Retainers, Zodiac Dragon, Mox Diamond, Grim Tutor, and personally I'd like to see Word of Command back.
Imperial Seal does nothing for us, but would be nice for extended and standard, and vintage people should be happy. Zodiac Dragon (along with the new Eldrazi guy) could make Sneak Attack viable in Legacy. Mox Diamond is a perfect replacement for Chrome Mox in extended without printing any more cheap 0 mana artifacts to make storm better in Legacy, Grim Tutor is a happy medium between Demonic Tutor (too powerful) and Diabolic Tutor (too weak). Widespread availability would be great for extended, standard, and legacy. Word of Command is a cool card that was discontinued for complexity reasons but the game can handle that now and the card seems like fun. Note that only 2 of those cards are actually on the reserve list.
Everything else is either too narrow (could argue this for Retainers but it might make Reanimator viable in newer formats), or sucks and shouldn't be killed for the sake of killing prices. Perfect example: Strategic Planning. This card is a great Impulse-variant. It lets you grab a card and fill your graveyard. Should it be a $60 uncommon? No. If it were reprinted as a rare or mythic, people would be pissed because it sucks at that rarity. If it were printed at common or uncommon, where it belongs, it would totally kill P3K ones due to dramatically increased supply. It would see play, but people would not go for a $30 card when they can get the same thing for 50 cents. The cards like Juzam Djinn, which are perfectly playable (and a little weak) in Standard wouldn't see much play and the price would tank, just like the aforementioned Underworld Dreams.
The main cards on the list that need attention due to price concerns are dual lands, Tabernacle, and Moat. Tabernacle could be in an FTV or judge promo, but mass printing would kill it since it is a narrow card. Same with Moat. I think the best choice for dual lands is to print them as either judge promos or MPR cards. For 20 tournaments you get a random dual land. This would actually be great for the game since it would drive people to go to more tournaments, because I'm sure people would love this more than a shiny Lightning Bolt or Cryptic Command. It wouldn't flood the market too much, since there's only a certain amount of time
Everything else on the reserve list (maybe not Grindstone, but there are a ton of $25 cards that no one is complaining about) is either cheap enough or useless, and anything else that's expensive doesn't see much pay anyway. Goyfs, Forces, Wastelands, etc. aren't on the list so reprinting them doesn't go against their word (although Goyf is the only one that *might* get reprinted in a standard-legal set).
JACO I have to commend you on your level head and well thought out article. I have had quite a few heated discussions with other individuals I play MTG with about this very same subject. As someone who has worked hard to dump meager savings into picking up Unlimited Power Nine and other Vintage/Legacy staples, the recent talk of endless new print runs has been worrisome at best. It is refreshing to see the other side of the argument presented in such a regal fashion.
To be quite blunt people who think mass reprints will not effect the prices of top tier cards are out of their fucking mind.
The way I see it the majority of people who have actually invested into this game are against any form of functional reprints.
The people who have no major investment are screaming for reprints.
I just hope WotC finds a mid ground or at least respects the people who have invested so much into the game to not utterly destroy the secondary market.
Here's one for hoping they stick to their guns and for once the moronic mass majority doesn't get their way.
Wouldn't that be the entire point of reprinting them in the first place?Originally Posted by Ertai's familiar
When is comes to card values and price trends I am going to have to agree with JACO. In my experience he is an extremely knowledgeable collector while Smmenen tends to be an extremely knowledgeable player. About the only people I feel could be more qualified than JACO to talk about card prices would be pickle.69 or gunslinga.
One version of duals that has yet to be discussed is foreign black border copies. I have a lot of these and I know their price would die if there was any sort of reprint. Alpha and Beta would hold a little better but a $160 German black border Underground Sea would loose almost all of its appeal when you could get a Japanese M11 black border copy for 1/8th the price.
One of my favorite aspects of Legacy is that there is some barrier to entry. It tends to keep the riff raff out and keep the more serious players in.
I collect German and miscut cards. Please PM if you have.
That assumes a very narrow view of reprinting that it would be reprinted in a standard (small "s") set. If they were reprinted in a white bordered Masters Edition type set, in which case they would be less appealing than even Revised, your FBBs value would be fine.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The key to reprinting cards so that the older cards maintain value is to make the newer cards less attractive than the old ones, so that people use them out of necessity not desire.
Are you suggesting that significantly lowering the price of Legacy staples would turn Legacy tournaments into FNM hell with 13 and 14 year olds picking their noses and then asking to riffle through your graveyard?
One of the really nice things about Legacy at this point is that I virtually never sit down opposite a child except across my kitchen table and those kids are toilet-trained.
By the looks of your signature it appears that you prefer German black bordered duals. Did you buy them because they were cheaper than English ones, or did you buy them because thats what you found appealing? It seems to me that the latter is true considering your present signature. Why then, would a Japanese foil dual bother you? Because the cards that you bought, because they appealed to you, depreciated? Would you even sell your German duals (notwithstanding quitting the game) regardless of what may happen? I don't think I completely understand your position, but right now it seems to me that you only care about what the mass audience who gives a shit about what is pimp, thinks is pimp.
Define "appeal" please. Is it purely monetary?
I usually abstain from doing this, but I have to call immense bullshit on this. Out of all the arguments for not doing reprints, this is the only one that I can truthfully say I despise. It is inherently elitist, and implies that specific people (whoever riff-raff is, I'm guessing people below the age of 15) should never be able to play or be taken seriously. However I am biased, because I am a citadel of tranquility. I honestly don't care if I am beaten by a pro with a $5000 deck or a kid who borrowed his brothers draft deck. It honest to god doesn't phase me. I laugh out loud when I read about how some people quit the game over it.
Ich bin aueslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch
Statements like this:
And this:
Are not helpful to the format or the format's health. Quite frankly, they reek of elitism and if I didn't already have an opinion on this subject, I'd be more inclined to not agree with people making these kinds of comments. You're not helping your cause, really.
I don't know know about you guys, but when I started playing Magic at 13 or so in 1994, I enjoyed being able to play with adults and learn the game from them. :)
I don't believe it, because if they cared about the BB alone they would buy foreign-language black borders. Anyone who buys Beta duals simply for the black border is retarded.
Unlike, I guess, Ben Bleiweiss.It's pretty evident you don't or have never sold cards seriously before as a revenue stream, and certainly haven't recently.
Your argument is the definition of weak sauce.
They were $10 last time I bought one, and are now $20. This does not support the notion that Alpha/Beta cards collapse in value when they're reprinted.Alpha/Beta Lightning Bolts haven't really experiened a noticeable bump with their M10 reprint. They were $20 quite a long time ago, then down to $10-15 when rotating, and now they are what, $10-15 each? People don't need a black border Beta copy when ten million black border M10 copies exist, and when thousands of black border Foil copies exist.
The combined print run for Alpha and Beta was less than 10 million. The print run for Tempest was over 400 million. I would love to see how you did your math.But the amount of Tempest Reflecting Pools was a small amount compared to the amount of each dual land already in existence. Additionally, so many more packs of cards are opened now for drafting and case cracking that the supply is quite a bit more than it used to be, and print runs are gigantic nowadays. Believe it or not, massive supply does regulate the price of cards.
You know, only tossers and housewives rely on ad hominem arguments.As usual your reply has been relatively worthless, but I appreciate the fact that you took the time to share your thoughts at least.
Ancient Tomb was banned for enabling Tinker decks that cheated into play cards like Masticore, Urza's Blueprints and Phyrexian Processor. The spells weren't the broken part of that format, the fast mana was.The reason Ancient Tomb was banned in 1.x was because that was a hell of a lot more broken format than Extended is today. It was also much faster. To suggest that Ancient Tomb in today's format is anything like that is ignoring history my friend, and I think you're aware of how broken and fast that old format was.
I think you're the one that needs to bone up on your history.
Cut the bullshit. Without duals you have very, very few options in deck selection.Bingo! That's part of the point. You don't need to trample on the spirit of the Reserved List when most of the Legacy format's staples can already be reprinted in one way or another without problem.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Sarcasm and internets don't work well together. That said, I thought those prices looked weak.
What does everyone think of the idea of making dual lands MPR promos? They don't have to be foil or full-art (but you have to admit, full-art duals would be siiiiick, but would probably kill the market...or at least put $50 in the hands of anyone who played 20 tournaments), but that way Wizards can control the distribution of them in a better way than making it a competition of who can get to the store earliest and who can afford the store's massive price-gouging. Similarly Force of Will, Wasteland (again...lol), and others.
At the least this will both reduce the price of Revised lands (because I imagine anything new will make them look bad, since they look terrible to begin with), and give people something to start out with when they want to play Legacy. It would also boost tournament numbers since people will want to get them for free (more than a Cryptic Command or Lightning Bolt).
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