But the amount of Tempest Reflecting Pools was a small amount compared to the amount of each dual land already in existence. Additionally, so many more packs of cards are opened now for drafting and case cracking that the supply is quite a bit more than it used to be, and print runs are gigantic nowadays. Believe it or not, massive supply does regulate the price of cards.Probably the right way by adding the 500 million from revised alone and then also the 40 million from unlimited.Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
"ad hominem"- do you know what this means. Stay Classy IBA
A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout
Exactly.
This is the exact same thing I just said in the other thread: unless you want to play a mono color deck, you need dual lands in legacy. They are the foundation and the building blocks of the format. They are as important, if not more so, than basic lands.
Can you imagine if basic Forest cost $50?
@ Majikal: those prices are from the Black Lotus Project dot com, which tracks MOTL sales/trades, I guess.
It's a complicated issue, for sure, but might I make an analogy?
Fender, the world-famous guitar company, issued their Stratocaster model in 1954. Models from that era can fetch upwards of $20,000 (sometimes more) on the secondary market depending on condition. However, Fender never stopped producing the Stratocaster. The company doesn't see a penny from sales of those models on the secondary market, but does from selling new ones. The old ones will always be desirable for their "vintage mojo", but just about anyone that wants to play guitar can get an essentially functionally-identical Strat without paying the astronomical prices for an old one. Mass-producing the guitar never diluted the desirability/value of the original models. Owning a stratocaster does not (and really should not) put you into some sort of elitist wealthy circle, it merely gives you access to some of the most famous guitar tones that have become ubiquitous to rock music. (The old Strats were arguably made better, but that is beyond the scope of the point I am trying to make).
Beta duals are similar. A reprint might effect the price of the originals marginally in the short term, but there will always be collectors that "need" to have the original issue. For someone who is more interested in playing the game and not the collecting aspect, a revised dual would serve the same purpose. Yet, because dual lands are so ubiquitous and perhaps even necessary to eternal formats, it seems counter-intuitive for Wizards as a company to keep them from being reprinted to satisfy the desires of a few collection-minded individuals that don't even buy much new product from them.
This doesn't mean Wizards should go out and just print a set full of Legacy staples, nor should they reprint the Power 9. But there are ways of releasing dual lands, arguably a necessity for almost every legacy deck, gradually that won't suddenly kill off the value of the originals on the secondary market. And yeah, I do think that every serious player that loves Magic should be able to manage to get a playset of duals without it costing them an arm and a leg. In competitive play, I don't think money should be a barrier towards competitiveness. I own a couple playsets of duals and bought them just right around the time their price was beginning to raise steadily. But I would much rather see legacy Magic continue to grow as a format than be limited to a niche elitist group of people complaining about playing against people younger than them.
I wonder if we would even be having this argument if the Dual Lands were printed as uncommons and not rares?
A difference of, at most, 20% (I'm actually just extrapolating the last expansion I could find print run numbers for, incidentally, which was fucking Fallen Empires, so Tempest almost certainly had far more prints), proves what exactly about the A/B versions, which have a total print run of less than 10 million?
WHOOOSH!"ad hominem"- do you know what this means. Stay Classy IBA
I will. Worry not.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@JACO
This is a completely serious question:
Do you buy, sell, and trade older cards as a secondary, or perhaps primary, source of income?
If so, that might not be the wisest move. This is a game. Not something to invest money in. If you collect it, you should collect it because you like the art, nostalgia, cool factor or what have you. Not because you can resell the cards you've acquired.
Yes. Yet people here and on various other forums seem to be spewing the bullshit that highly collectible and expensive cards such as Beta Edition Dual Lands are not going to plummet in price due to reprints.
Magic The Gathering is a collectible trading card game. Like any hobby there are multiple layers of investment, be it currency or emotional based. Reprints will fuck the secondary market, by posting something like this you are asking people who have put in both a significant emotional and monetary investment into this game to give it up for people who have not put forth the same effort. Kind of hard to swallow in my book.
Also this, call me elitist but I avoid standard and extended for a reason. I'd rather play with quality over quantity, then again I live in New England and there are plenty of Eternal events for me to attend. While it may be difficult for some people to make regular events due to their location, I do not believe reprints will alleviate this problem.
Comments directed at a person's place of residence have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. If the post you made following this had not resulted in an infraction, this comment was borderline anyway. Consider it a verbal warning. ~Nightmare
I disagree when people hope that reprints will fix Eternal attendance. I would imagine that it is their less ideal location rather than available card pool that results in poor attendance.
Last edited by socialite; 03-03-2010 at 12:25 PM.
Perhaps I should clarify my apparently controversial statement. I believe the small barrier to entry keeps more serious players in the format. Because it costs more money and time to make a deck for legacy you tend to have people that have been playing for a longer amount of time. Yes, this does mean you are less likely to play against "nose picking 14 year olds" but personally I don't care who it is I play against so long as they like Magic, and legacy players generally love magic.
The player turnover rate for legacy, and especially vintage, is also a lot lower than standard and extended. I know of countless people that start playing magic heavily during a standard season and end up quitting during the next rotation. Legacy players tend to have been playing for years. This also leads to a more social game because when you play against someone in a Legacy tournament it probably won't be the last time you ever see him or her. That being said people tend to behave a little better while playing when you have seen them before and will see them again. Yes, I still see a lot of immature behavior in eternal formats, but less than standard.
I bought the German fbb duals because I like older and more rare cards. I would buy Alpha if I didn't have a girlfriend. The Japanese dual would bother me because I think it would devalue my current investment in fbb duals. I would still like my German duals if they lost value, but I doubt any of us are happy when our cards loose value. I would like to use them as a down payment on alpha duals eventually.
I collect German and miscut cards. Please PM if you have.
I know it's a minor nit to pick in the grand scheme of things, but I have to take issue with some of the paranoid, conspiratorial language/implications in your first article.
Wizards is not inventing the “premium=foil” loophole out of ambiguous language. ‘Premium’ has ALWAYS been Wizards-speak for foils, from 1999 to the present day. Note that this includes 2002, when the official reserved list and reprint policy were written.
The original intent of that clause absolutely meant foil cards.
Citations:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/images/ULInter.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/expert/...zas_Legacy.asp
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/arcana/614Look for foil-finished premium cards randomly inserted in select Urza's Legacy boosters.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Eve...?x=dci/mpr/faqLightning Dragon was the first widely-available foil premium card. It was the card given away at the Urza's Saga prerelease. Foil premium cards began showing up in regular booster backs in the next set, Urza's Legacy, and have been a part of Magic ever since.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ewards/welcome"Premium cards are playable Magic cards that have a shiny finish to them; many players call them "foils". Here is an example of a recent premium promo foil card."
A wide variety of promo card types will be available. These range from, but are not limited to, well known promo cards previously released in paper Magic, premium foil versions of cards, alternate art cards, and textless spells.
'Premium' being synonymous with 'foil' is a loooong-established convention. Any suggestion that this definition of 'premium' is a recent invention is completely ahistorical and wrong.
It's a good start, but it's only a drop in the bucket. Duals don't make a lot of sense as MPR, since people generally need playsets of them. Something that you only need 1-2 of makes more sense (like...uh Moat I guess? most pricey cards are 4-ofs)
So what I am hearing is that you would not buy hypothetical foil reprints of duals even if they were much cheaper. So there you go, proving Meister_Kai's point: you yourself are an example of the consumer who would maintain demand (price) of alpha/beta duals!
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion outside of the fact that it coincides with your personal opinion? I own a playset of most duals, FoWs, Wastelands, etc., and I'm strongly in favor of reprints, because I care much more about the long term health of this format than I do about the resale value of my cards, despite having a significant monetary investment in them.
I would also like to point out that if Duals are reprinted in any way (new set, Duel Decks, etc), the prices won't crash. With duals easily available and cheaper (due to reprint), more players will look into and try out Legacy. The demand will increase and the supply would increase a bit more than that. It will lower prices a bit, which is great for the long term health of the format. I think a lot of people are overreacting to their "investments" going down the drain and not realizing that their cards will still be worth something.
No offense. You're what I like to call a moderate collector/player. When I say invested I mean invested, yes you have put a decent amount of money into acquiring staples for playing Legacy. Ok. Great. I suppose I should have been more clear, I was referring to high end collectors. People with Power Nine and play sets of high end cards from base sets like Beta and "pimp cards". People like OCCAM, JACO, Pickle69, Andrew77, the majority of people over at Magic Librarities. People with actual investments who put a lot of time and money into tracking down PSA/BGS 9 and 10 graded cards. You bought your cards to play with and I cannot speak of your collection as I know nothing about it but I assume you are running played cards and white boarder duals. You have a lot less to lose than someone like myself.
TLDR: No I don't it is my opinion. However I have a very modest collection compared to some of these people and I am against it, I can only assume the others would be as well and for the record the majority of high end collectors that I have actually seen post on this subject across multiple boards and sites are against it.
I realize I am breaking individual investments into tiers and there is a lot of gray area, but shouldn't the people who have the most to lose in this situation make the decision?
Come on now, people. Reprinted duals are not going to be "cheap" while old duals retain all (or nearly all) of their value. Maybe the alpha/beta duals would retain most of their value, but the Unlimited and Revised ones would depreciate significantly. Either that, or the reprinted duals would immediately be worth $20 to $40.
That's not to say that duals shouldn't be reprinted. I think they should be reprinted in limited quantities. As usual, I'd just like to see some intellectual honesty in these debates.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
This point is getting too complicated. I agree that A/B duals will always be expensive, no matter what. I would be sad if my investment in fbb duals were to die because of new duals. I want to use that investment to buy A/B some day.
It seems to my like there are two major camps, players and collectors. If you are a player first then sacrificing an investment for more players is worthwhile. If you are a collector first then the idea of Wizards killing your investment is uncool. I guess I just realized that I am a collector first, and a player second. I guess thats why most pro-players I have seen/met don't really collect, they are purely in it for the playing.
The million dollar question is, how do you get more players into an expensive format without pissing off collectors? My favorite answer thus far (not my idea) is printing official proxies and distributing them in some way and only allowing a small number in sactioned tournaments. The reason for official proxies is so that Wizards can somehow make money off them. Players will get more people and those who want to collect and have a proxyless deck can still pay for it.
I collect German and miscut cards. Please PM if you have.
But for the most part, major investors make up a fraction of the total player base, if they are players. And for many of the collectors you mentioned, they collect niche, hard-to-find items that are unaffected by reprints. Graded cards, miscuts, test-prints, etc.
For the millionth time, this assumes they'd be more sought after than RV and UL. If they were more akin to Anthologies, RV and UL would be fine. Anthologies is objectively less sought after and who plays with them? People who can't afford/find other copies, precisely who reprints are meant to help.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
God no. WoTC should.
Also, I think it's an oversimplification to suggest that those who have invested heavily monetarily are the only ones who stand to lose something in this quandary. What about the players who care deeply about Legacy as a format? Vintage has taught us that prohibitive cost of entry can absolutely decimate a format and the community that developed it.
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that large investments of time and effort are less relevant than money. That's really what this argument boils down to: players that care about the format on one side, and collectors that value their investment on the other. I think it's assinine to suggest that either side is inherently more entitled to an opinion than the other.
You can say it a million times, and I'm still not going to believe it. You're not going to have "cheap" new duals while the old duals retain their value. Just. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Oh no, I was talking about Unlimited and Revised duals as well. They will drop in value but not to the point that they are $10. Alpha and Beta will most likely stay put since they are a collector's item.
Look at Berserk, for example. When it was reprinted in FTV:Exiled, the Unlimited copies took a hit, but are still of value. The FTV ones are much cheaper than the Unlimited ones. I think if the same thing were to happen to duals, much of the same would come.
I do agree with the small quantities. I think if it was a Master's Edition type thing, it would all happen way too fast.
Well, as with investing in basically everything else, there is a possibility of stuff bottoming out. Speaking from a purely financial standpoint, maybe now is the time you take your "investment" and sell while the price is still good, to try and get your big prize item. Why is Magic this serene bubble where investments only appreciate? If duals are reprinted and you lose on your investments, well, thats just how real investments work. Again, why should collectors be able to have their cake and eat it too?
Also, for those who want reprints, isn't the point of reprinting duals to make Unlimited and especially Revised duals drop in price? You know, the ones which where originally printed to help curb supply problems?
I don't understand what many people in these debates consider "collecting". I think we really need a definition. It seems to me that many people in this thread collect to eventually meet some goal. What is the goal? To have all the cards in a given set, to reach some sort of critical mass and then sell them? Or are you simply buying lower priced cards (such as German fbb duals) to eventually factor into buying even more expensive cards? Where does it begin? Where does it end?
As mean spirited as this sounds, I believe that Wizards should put players a good distance ahead of collectors when it comes to determining the "health of the game". If collectors were to be put first, what would happen to Magic? I believe it would suffer the same fate as Baseball cards; a distinct few are worth boatloads while the overwhelming majority are worth nothing (we sort of already have this).
However, this is not to say collectors should be completely shut out. Look at what happened to Pokemon. I am relatively young, but I remember when a first edition Charizard was worth $100 or something stupid. Last I heard it was worth $10 or so? I'm not really sure I know why this happened, but I remember hearing something about the company that handled Pokemon TCG making sure it was a Trading Card Game and not a Collectible Card Game.
Obviously the good answer is somewhere between Baseball Cards and Pokemon and for both aspects of the hobby to survive (or even thrive) a middle ground should be established. It was once before with the reserved list, but this is slowly starting to push far too hard on the actual player half of the consumer base. This is not to say that Magic SHOULDN'T have its Michael Jordan rookie cards, because as a CCG it should. However, you can't play a game with Baseball cards (that I know of). Not all collectors NEED duals and to people who purely want to collect something for the sake of collecting, price means no difference. However, many players NEED duals.
I don't know why Michael Jordan rookie cards are worth so much, and their reprints are worth nothing. Conversely, I don't know why first print Charizards are now worthless even though it was reprinted only once or so (I will admit I don't really know much about the Pokemon TCG). What I do know however, is that when taking just shear numbers into consideration, MANY more people have fun drafting, playing starndard, legacy etc than just collecting. Of course I have no hard numbers, but I assume many of us hold the gut feeling that the majority of people that deal with Magic primarily play and not collect. As horribly "majority rule" as it sounds, it is Wizard's obligation to make sure the grand majority of its user base is happy. It just so happens that Magic makes more people happy being played in tournaments than in sitting in display cases and binders.
Ich bin aueslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch
Well, I never said they wouldn't drop, but as we can agree, duals have a hierarchy of desire. Alpha/Beta, then FBB, then UL, then RV, yes? If they reprint them as fugly Anthologies style, that would place the new duals at the bottom of the hierarchy, whereas if they reprinted them as BB or worse, BB in foreign languages, that would put UL and RV at the bottom. So, what I'm suggesting is not that there will be no price movement, and let's face it, no one can be certain of that because the future hasn't happened yet, but that you can control that hierarchy of demand and thereby control the prices a bit in relation to each other.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote