Could Legacy be a PTQ format?

[Anusien]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

[Skeggi]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

No, people in general think not.

2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

I guess this is a retorical question.

3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

Probably reprints of Legacy staples. They've already begun on StifelNought as Judge promo's. I wonder if they have the balls to print Duals as Judge promo's.

But since GP Madrid Wizards and the DCI will certainly look into their options on how to make Legacy a PT format.

[Jak]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

No.

2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

Go up... Unless they (Wizards) increases the supply, the cards would skyrocket up in value. The demand would be incredibly higher than it is now.

3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

Card availability. If more cards are readily available and cheaper to purchase, more people will be able to jump into the format. PTQs would then be possible since people would know about Legacy and be playing it.

Duals should be reprinted. These are the only cards I really care about being reprinted because they shouldn't be this high in price. In the past few years, the prices have at least doubled in value and this really impacts a lot of players. Almost every deck needs them and the manabase should be the cheapest part to build. Also, I hear people keep talking about printing them foil or white bordered. Fuck that. I don't want to stare at ugly pieces of shit across from me and if I do need to buy some new duals, I don't want to pay $50 or buy an ugly card. Make it normal, revised and unlimited duals will drop in value to hopefully where they were a while ago at $20 and everyone will be happy. I really doubt duals would go much lower than that if reprinted since the demand would increase with more people jumping into the format.

[Eksem]

Agreed. Print new beautiful duals in the next core set, please! John Avon, black bordered, full art.

[practical joke]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

Yes, they have already calculated that there are enough cards available in the world to support the legacy format. (I'll edit the post when I found a link to where they said that.)
Also it has been a format used on worlds.

2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

It will rise, but not much more than it already has after the SCG 5k tournaments and GP Madrid.

3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

Reprinting duals and other staples as promo foils or other foil reprints. For example dreadnaught/stifle, natural order, jitte, berserk ( not that it is a staple, but you never know what they are going to do), fetches.

[godryk]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?

Yes, there are plenty, but...

2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?

... this. Prices will go crazy.

3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

I've always thought that a mixed Legacy/Extended PTQ season feeding a Legacy PT would be interesting and perfectly doable. Why do this? I think that there are a lot of enternal and only-Legacy players out there that are totally out of the PTQ circuit. I mean, at least here in Spain Eternal players is a well differenced plyer grupo from PTQ-goers. This guys just made larger trips (300-600km) than us because of Pro Tour slots while a Legacy event needs an insane prize support to get this. Getting us, Legacy players, into the PTQ circuit would only be beneficalforWoTC. For example, some people I know that got pro points or PT slots on last weekend are seriously considering going to it or start playing another formats even though they're hardcore Legacy players.

Another interesting thing would be a Legacy portion in Worlds, not that teams crap. It would be interesting that everyone had to win some Legacy rounds to become Wolrd Champion.

[herbig]

I'd be interested in hearing Dube's take on this. Where has he been lately?

[GUnit]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[MattH]

1) Do people think the cards exist in wide enough quantities to support Legacy as a PTQ format?
2) What would Legacy as a PTQ format do to the prices of the cards?
3) Is there an intermediary step between here and Legacy as a PTQ format?

1. No, not really.
2. Obviously through the roof. How is this even a question.
3. Yes, and it may surprise you: a legacy PT would be a lot smaller than a PTQ! It would mean abandoning the rule that PTQs are the same format as PTs, if that rule is still around, but ~300 pros could get legacy cards together easily enough, certainly a lot easier than ~300 randoms at a PTQ or 300*N for N PTQs.

[Anusien]

I find it interesting that in answering #3 almost everyone keyed on card availability, and not what I intended: tournaments. I think MattH is right in that the next step is an actual Legacy Pro Tour. And no, there hasn't been a PTQ/PT matching rule in a long time. For as long as I've been playing competitively, they've always been different.

010 PT Schedule: San Diego: Standard/Draft, Feb 19-21 (Sealed PTQs Oct 3); San Juan: ZEN Block/Draft, May 28-30 (Extended PTQs Jan 2); Amsterdam: Extended/Draft, Sep 3-5 (Standard PTQs April 17); Chiba Worlds: December 9-12.

If 2000 people in Madrid could easily get their hands on competitive Legacy decks, what's the problem? In the decks that did well, we didn't see any issue with budgetizing; no fake duals in any decks or budget replacements for cards. Hell, people even got Tabernacles.

And I've talked to higher-ups in the judge program; judge foil duals aren't in the cards for the forseeable future.

2. Obviously through the roof. How is this even a question.

Well, would they double? Triple? Go up slightly? On ebay, Force of Will is a $30-40 card. Would it go up to Mana Drain level prices? Underground Sea is a $60 card. Would it go to $80 or $120?


http://crystalkeep.com/magic/misc/rarity-info.php
Revised: 289,000 print run (per rare), so there are about 70,000 playsets of each dual land from Revised.

[MattH]

I'd be interested in hearing Dube's take on this. Where has he been lately?

Probably still recovering from the well-deserved beating his last article got him.

And I've talked to higher-ups in the judge program; judge foil duals aren't in the cards for the forseeable future.

Judge foil duals wouldn't solve any problems anyway. There would probably need to be at least 5k-10k of a given dual reprinted to get a price drop for Revised copies that's even noticeable. I don't actually know, but I suspect the judge foil prints are not that numerous. The big takeaway from Smmenen's article is that the likely way that reprints would help accessibility is not by having the old copies drop in price, but by introducing a new, cheaper version of the card.

[Anusien]

Then-Judge Manager John Carter showed me distribution stats on Bloodstained Mires last year. Given out to judges before they'd be retired, there were less than 3,000 given out. This doesn't count things like the FNM giveaways of course.

[MattH]

Then-Judge Manager John Carter showed me distribution stats on Bloodstained Mires last year. Given out to judges before they'd be retired, there were less than 3,000 given out. This doesn't count things like the FNM giveaways of course.

Well duals are in much less supply than fetches, so just because 3k didn't affect Mire's price doesn't mean 3k wouldn't affect Badlands. Still, given that there are what, maybe 300,000 of each dual? 10k seems like a reasonable minimum to affect prices, and if you actually want the price of a three-color manabase to drop under $300, probably more like 100k or more of each dual would need to be printed.

[jrsthethird]

Judge foil duals wouldn't solve any problems anyway. There would probably need to be at least 5k-10k of a given dual reprinted to get a price drop for Revised copies that's even noticeable. I don't actually know, but I suspect the judge foil prints are not that numerous. The big takeaway from Smmenen's article is that the likely way that reprints would help accessibility is not by having the old copies drop in price, but by introducing a new, cheaper version of the card.

How many MPR Damnations, Wraths, Wastelands, Cryptic Commands are in existence? I think that releasing the dual lands as the 20 tournament MPR card would be a better solution than Judge foils. Of course, you get 1 random dual out of 10 for each card for every 20 tournaments.

Pros:
- More people play 20 tournaments than people who judge X tournaments (don't know the requirements for judge promos, but it's obviously a lot less)
- Tournament attendance will rise because people will want to get free duals
- No price-gouging of product/other shady business from retailers (since it's free from the company directly to the consumer)
- It provides people who play Standard or Extended to have a boost to get started in Legacy by giving them 1 or 2 free duals per year
- People who don't want to play Legacy can trade their free duals for Standard/Extended staples or sell them
- Full-art duals will be in high demand and reduce prices of ugly Revised ones (they don't have to be foil)
- Shows Wizards' willingness to both adhere to the Reserved List (since these are promotional releases), and their willingness to support Legacy as a viable and widespread format
- Avoids breaking Standard and Extended by not printing them in a Standard-legal set
- Avoids flooding the market since they will not be mass-released

Cons:
- Guy who gets Badlands will be pissed off at his friend who gets Underground Sea (this is a necessary evil for this system to work)
- Might not have enough distribution to really affect Revised pricing that much (look at numbers of Cryptic Commands, and divide by 10; could make this a steady promotion that lasts indefinitely, this won't be an issue anymore)

I think this is the best solution, and I've mentioned it 3 times in other topics and no one has addressed it. Maybe because it's so foolproof that no one can argue, so why post on the internet if you can't argue about something? Haha...

[slylie]

I think it would be extremely interesting to have a Legacy PTQ here. We had about 120+ people show up for a sealed PTQ, im guessing a bit less for a standard PTQ. Extended PTQ last weekend we had just over 30. If the format was legacy I doubt we would get 4.

For the longest time I was trying to convince people to play legacy, telling them how cheap it is, since once you buy cards and build a deck it holds its value for years. I can no longer make that argument now that a playset of bayous costs $200 when just a few months ago you could pick up a set for $80, along with all the duals and most of the legacy staples. I love that more people are getting interested in legacy now, but since basically 3 of the 4 top decks play $400-600 worth of lands alone, I'm guessing a lot of people will be discouraged yet again. I own 4 sets of dual lands and still I wouldn't mind wizards reprinting them to make legacy more accessible to new players. A perfect way to do this would be releasing "masters edition" booster packs which contain reprinted cards from the past as they did online, only in paper. Wizards has more stuff to sell and we get more legacy cards on the market.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

[yankeedave]

People want to get their duals before they start going to Legacy tournaments, not after. I would create Duel Decks in paired sets. The Rock vs. Boros Aggro with Bayou and Plateau, for instance. Five sets over the next couple of years.

I wanna cry - I agree with IBA

[oldbsturgeon]

There really isn't much of a reason it cannot be a PTQ format in the abstract.
Of course realistically things would need to change to make it more feasible, i.e. printing more cards.

[MattH]

I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea:

Sell a "Magic Treasure Chest" that has something for every type of player. You get:

1x random dual
a random duel deck including 2-4x old cards reprinted (Natural Order or Wasteland, good stuff like that)
1x random Planechase plane (from a new batch of planes)
a draft set of the most recent set
maybe some full-art basics?

You've got something there for everyone. Old goodies, multiplayer, draft, casual play. Kill two birds with one stone - get Eternal staples into the hands of Eternal players, while drawing Eternal players into casual or draft or multiplayer, where they will hopefully catch on and need to get more cards. A product that gets Eternal players to buy more non-Eternal product is probably a very, very big carrot for WotC.

[Bardo]

I wonder if this wouldn't be a good idea:

Sell a "Magic Treasure Chest" that has something for every type of player. You get:

1x random dual
a random duel deck including 2-4x old cards reprinted (Natural Order or Wasteland, good stuff like that)
1x random Planechase plane (from a new batch of planes)
a draft set of the most recent set
maybe some full-art basics?

Just going with my knee-jerk here, but I love this idea. The way to max sales (and so, greater release of cards) is to appeal to the casual players. An ancillary product aimed at the hardcore Legacy player just wouldn't sell that much. The casual base (the silent majority) probably outnumbers the Legacy enthusiast by 200:1. Dunno if the draft set is necessary to make something like this work. My gut tells me the typical casual guy/gal is far more interested in constructed.