Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

  1. #1
    Member
    Angelfire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2005
    Location

    Mass
    Posts

    195

    [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Disclaimer: This deck is not Red Death. Land destruction and discard is anti-synergistic. This deck wins by destroying their hand and killing my opponent before they get too many topdeck opportunities. The deck has a ton of synergy and carries many of the strongest cards in Legacy. The deck does very well against most decks, but can struggle against decks like Dredge and Reanimator. This deck also needs a cool deck name, suggestions welcome. I would like you to be able to know what the deck is based on the name (less Meathooks/Solidarity, more Vial Goblins/Merfolk/ANT).

    Deck List:

    Creatures:
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Nyxathid

    Discard Spells:
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Blightning
    1 Raven's Crime

    Burn/Damage/Removal/Other:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    4 The Rack
    4 Manamorphose

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Tomb of the Urami

    Sideboard:
    4 Tormod's Crypt
    4 Dystopia
    3 Terminate
    4 Shattering Spree

    Card Explanations:
    Dark Confidant - Uncontested he wins games. Discard helps protect him and he has incredible synergy with the deck (I love burn spells w/ Confidant).

    Grim Lavamancer - Great synergy with discard and burn spells. Fetch lands and Manamorphose help feed him. Really shines against decks with weakish creatures: Merfolk, Goblins, Elves etc... Weakens Tarmogoyf.

    Nyxathid - Comes down in the mid game and takes over the board. Often larger than Goyf even. One of Discard deck's biggest weaknesses is that it usually has a slow kill clock and thus gives your opponent too opportunities to topdeck good cards. Nyxathid solves this problem by ending the game in a hurry.

    Thoughtseize - Better than Duress.

    Hymn to Tourach - The best discard spell ever printed. Card advantage for 2 mana and its random discard. One of my favorite cards in Magic (unless it is used against me).

    Blightning - A very strong discard spell and has great synergy with burn, The Rack and Nyxathid.

    Raven's Crime - Good at keeping them from holding cards and getting rid of excess lands. I don't really want more than one, this could go to a 2 of.

    Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning - Removal for 1 mana and is never dead (Terminate can't go to the face). Works great for keeping the board clear, removing blockers and finishing off opponents.

    The Rack - This card is a work horse and it ends games. Often deals a ton of damage and only costs one mana. Great synergy with rest of the deck. It is awesome to hit someone with a Blightning when they are holding cards to protect themselves from The Rack.

    Manamorphose - Makes the deck a little more potent, provides food for Grim Lavamancer and can fix mana for a turn. I enjoy making decks 56 cards for almost no penalty (with Grim Lavamancer it helps more than it hurts.

    Chrome Mox - Instead of Dark Ritual for a number of reasons and I really never want more than 1 so thats why there is only 2.

    8 Fetches - Feeds Grim Lavamancer, prevents me from getting flooded and fixes colors.

    Tomb of the Urami - This has won me so many games that I would have not won otherwise. Is great when you are in topdeck mode against a depleted opponent. Has synergy with Chrome Mox.

    Tormod's Crypt - Discard put cards in Graveyards for my opponent, this can be a problem. Crypt helps solve this problem somewhat.Can weaken Tarmogoyf.

    Dystopia - Absolutely owns green and white decks of all kinds. Works great with discard as a board stabilizer and the life loss is often a Time Walk (I often keep it in play even if they don't have anything to sac for a number of turns). Kills Tarmogoyf.

    Engineered Plague - For tribal heavy decks and helps boost my match ups like Merfolk and Vial Goblins.

    Shattering Spree - Great against decks like Stax, Affinity and anything running more than a couple of artifacts/equipment. I love this card.



    Cards not included and why:

    Storm World - Worse than The Rack. The symmetrical damage means I might have to hold cards and that isn't good. Nyxathid is a much better card in this slot.

    Dark Ritual - Not good with Nyxathid, Blightning, or any other red cards. Chrome Mox helps me turn after turn.

    Tomb Stalker - Bad with Dark Confidant and bad with Grim Lavamancer. Nyxathid works as a more solid finisher in this slot.

    Snuff Out - Too much life loss with Dark Confidant and it can't go to the face like burn can.

    Rise//Fall - The fact it fails when it hits land makes it bad. I would sooner splash white for Gerrard's Verdict.
    Last edited by Angelfire; 03-13-2010 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,203

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Consider the following:
    Storm World vs. The Rack
    - Rack can be played for either color while Storm World Requires R.
    - Storm World affects both players while Rack affects only your opponent.
    - Storm World deals more damage.

    I think both are good. Hitting for 7 every turn would be devastating as your completely wreck their hand. I think thats how you should play this. Play spot removal MD like Snuff out so you can play discard and removal in the same turn. Then just run x4 Storm World and x4 Rack for the kill. I'd do it like this:

    Deck List:

    Creatures:
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Grim Lavamancer

    Discard Spells:
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Blightning//(Rise//Fall)

    Burn/Damage/Removal/Other:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Snuff Out
    4 The Rack
    4 Storm World

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Tomb of the Urami

    I don't like Blightning actually. I'd rather it be a removal spell but thats probably not going to happen. Rise//Fall doesn't look so horrid. Maybe its worth a shot. Its bomb against combo and aggro, mediocre against control, which runs more land, even then you should be winning those control matchups anyway I think its worth a shot.

    Its a good concept though. I've been meaning to work on something like this but didnt find the time to compile a decent list. Tomb is pretty good, but I haven't tested it in something like this. Which matchups does it improve considering you take life from it each turn?

  3. #3
    Amen, brotha.
    Nidd's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2009
    Location

    Bamberg / Franconia / Bavaria / Germany
    Posts

    615

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    This reminds me of my attempt at building a quite similiar deck. I called it Demigod Blightning and it also used heavy discard, some burn but used big beatsticks to finish the game.

    Here's the link, if you're interested, maybe you can take some ideas from it: Demigod Blightning

    I guess I should update the list... The deck was quite fun to play.

  4. #4

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Deck List:
    Creatures:
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Grim Lavamancer

    Discard Spells:
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Blightning//(Rise//Fall)

    Burn/Damage/Removal/Other:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Snuff Out
    4 The Rack
    4 Storm World

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Tomb of the Urami
    This list is suicide man! 4 Dark confidant, 4 Thoughtsieze, 4 Storm world, 4 Snuff out, 8 pain lands... I'm pretty sure a single lightning bolt would beat this list.
    Thoughtseizes could be replaced with Duresses, and Snuff Outs have to go but I'm not sure about the best cheap removal.

  5. #5
    Amen, brotha.
    Nidd's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2009
    Location

    Bamberg / Franconia / Bavaria / Germany
    Posts

    615

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabble View Post
    This list is suicide man! 4 Dark confidant, 4 Thoughtsieze, 4 Storm world, 4 Snuff out, 8 pain lands... I'm pretty sure a single lightning bolt would beat this list.
    Thoughtseizes could be replaced with Duresses, and Snuff Outs have to go but I'm not sure about the best cheap removal.
    Smother is quite good. It kills pretty much every relevant creature, reanimated badasses aside. Plus, it hits Bob.

  6. #6
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,203

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    This list is suicide man! 4 Dark confidant, 4 Thoughtsieze, 4 Storm world, 4 Snuff out, 8 pain lands... I'm pretty sure a single lightning bolt would beat this list.
    Thoughtseizes could be replaced with Duresses, and Snuff Outs have to go but I'm not sure about the best cheap removal.
    I agree there IS too much lifeloss. Some stuff should definitely get cut. It was a rough list.
    I like the idea of running Storm World and Rack together. Confidant is probably out of place here. Same with lavamancer. Its just going to draw removal spells. I think its a better plan to play burn + discard that way your opponents STP's and PtE's are just dead cards.

    Play more burn and discard. I think this is a sound strategy:
    Aggro plan:
    Burn small creatures, make the opponent discard, hopefully hitting the lands he needs to drop bigger creatures or the creatures themselves, once the opponent is at a low hand count (aggro usually drops its empties its hand quickly and discard makes it even faster) Rack and Storm World should clear things up nicely. This strategy might be better accompanied by a mass removal spell like Firespout.

    Control plan:
    Dodge Counterbalance with discard, aim burn at creatures if they are small. I think discard is good against control anyway so this matchup should be easier.

    Combo:
    Distrupt earlier, burn the opponent down to a life at which AdN is not profitable and try to keep pressure on the opponent via discard so that he can't IGG loop with IT and LED.

    Discard/Burn:
    Disruption:
    4 Thoughtseize//Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Rise//Fall
    2 Blightning

    Damage:
    2 Price of Progress
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Smother
    4 The Rack
    4 Storm World

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    2 Mountain
    1 Tomb of Urami

    At least thats my take on it.

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    I have played very little Magic in the past couple of years, but I kept a deck to play with my friends occasionally (therefore testing is very limited, but on MWS against a myriad of decks I have also done OK with it). It is a little different from what you are aiming for, but here is the list:


    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Badlands
    4 Mountain
    7 Swamp

    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Blightning
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Incinerate
    4 Seal of Fire
    1 Empty slot (I change this around all the time, usually a Terminate, Jitte, X burn spell, Extirpate...)


    I felt the need to add the Factories since one of my friend's plays a BW Pox/Deadguy that sometimes seems able to kill all of my creatures. But they dodge his Sorcery removal and they are a pet card of mine.

    The Nantuko Shades are to be replaced sometime in the future, but I don't really know what for. I like having an extra beatstick in that slot, but I haven't found a suitable replacement for them (I'm not much of a fan of Nyxathid), and Vampire Nighthawk tested OK but ups the mana curve a little bit.

    Duress instead of Thoughtseize, since I have so much removal already and doesn't add up on the lifeloss.

    Incinerate instead of Chain Lightning because of instant-speed, and much less €€.

    I like the Seal of Fire because I can just play it and forget, and can stop someone from playing a creature for several turns, making my opponent hold his Bobs, Meddling Mages, Priests of Titania, any small but strong creature until they have a way to get around it.

  8. #8
    Magic Player Decapitator
    Kangaxx's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Posts

    286

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelfire View Post
    Disclaimer: This deck is not Red Death. Land destruction and discard is anti-synergistic. This deck wins by destroying their hand and killing my opponent before they get too many topdeck opportunities. The deck has a ton of synergy and carries many of the strongest cards in Legacy. The deck does very well against most decks, but can struggle against decks like Dredge and Reanimator. This deck also needs a cool deck name, suggestions welcome. I would like you to be able to know what the deck is based on the name (less Meathooks/Solidarity, more Vial Goblins/Merfolk/ANT).

    Deck List:

    Creatures:
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Nyxathid

    Discard Spells:
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Blightning
    1 Raven's Crime

    Burn/Damage/Removal/Other:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    4 The Rack
    4 Manamorphose

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Tomb of the Urami

    Sideboard:
    4 Tormod's Crypt
    4 Dystopia
    3 Terminate
    4 Shattering Spree

    Card Explanations:
    Dark Confidant - Uncontested he wins games. Discard helps protect him and he has incredible synergy with the deck (I love burn spells w/ Confidant).

    Grim Lavamancer - Great synergy with discard and burn spells. Fetch lands and Manamorphose help feed him. Really shines against decks with weakish creatures: Merfolk, Goblins, Elves etc... Weakens Tarmogoyf.

    Nyxathid - Comes down in the mid game and takes over the board. Often larger than Goyf even. One of Discard deck's biggest weaknesses is that it usually has a slow kill clock and thus gives your opponent too opportunities to topdeck good cards. Nyxathid solves this problem by ending the game in a hurry.

    Thoughtseize - Better than Duress.

    Hymn to Tourach - The best discard spell ever printed. Card advantage for 2 mana and its random discard. One of my favorite cards in Magic (unless it is used against me).

    Blightning - A very strong discard spell and has great synergy with burn, The Rack and Nyxathid.

    Raven's Crime - Good at keeping them from holding cards and getting rid of excess lands. I don't really want more than one, this could go to a 2 of.

    Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning - Removal for 1 mana and is never dead (Terminate can't go to the face). Works great for keeping the board clear, removing blockers and finishing off opponents.

    The Rack - This card is a work horse and it ends games. Often deals a ton of damage and only costs one mana. Great synergy with rest of the deck. It is awesome to hit someone with a Blightning when they are holding cards to protect themselves from The Rack.

    Manamorphose - Makes the deck a little more potent, provides food for Grim Lavamancer and can fix mana for a turn. I enjoy making decks 56 cards for almost no penalty (with Grim Lavamancer it helps more than it hurts.

    Chrome Mox - Instead of Dark Ritual for a number of reasons and I really never want more than 1 so thats why there is only 2.

    8 Fetches - Feeds Grim Lavamancer, prevents me from getting flooded and fixes colors.

    Tomb of the Urami - This has won me so many games that I would have not won otherwise. Is great when you are in topdeck mode against a depleted opponent. Has synergy with Chrome Mox.

    Tormod's Crypt - Discard put cards in Graveyards for my opponent, this can be a problem. Crypt helps solve this problem somewhat.Can weaken Tarmogoyf.

    Dystopia - Absolutely owns green and white decks of all kinds. Works great with discard as a board stabilizer and the life loss is often a Time Walk (I often keep it in play even if they don't have anything to sac for a number of turns). Kills Tarmogoyf.

    Terminate - For creature heavy decks and helps boost my match ups like Merfolk. Kills Tarmogoyf.

    Shattering Spree - Great against decks like Stax, Affinity and anything running more than a couple of artifacts/equipment. I love this card.
    Why do you run Manamorphoses over Dark Ritual?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix
    Buying duals for 30 a piece is certainly smart. Buying 4 Eureka (a terrible card) is not. :/

    Knowing what to buy is just as impo as knowing when to buy.

  9. #9
    Member-ish
    kicks_422's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2006
    Location

    Manila
    Posts

    1,209

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    I actually like the list on the OP. It looks pretty solid, except for the 4 Manamorphose and 2 Chrome Mox. Possibly the 4th Chain Lightning over the singleton Raven's Crime as well.

    Could it be called Blightning Bolt?
    The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.

  10. #10
    Member
    Angelfire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2005
    Location

    Mass
    Posts

    195

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Quote Originally Posted by kicks_422 View Post
    I actually like the list on the OP. It looks pretty solid, except for the 4 Manamorphose and 2 Chrome Mox. Possibly the 4th Chain Lightning over the singleton Raven's Crime as well.

    Could it be called Blightning Bolt?
    I really like Manamorphose and Chrome Mox gives the deck some much needed speed, but I don't want to draw 2 of them. The Raven's Crime was added recently because I felt the deck needed a little more discard and it does wonders late game getting rid of excess lands when they are holding cards against The Rack and Nyxathid.

    I like the name Blightning Bolt because it is discard, but has a strong burn element.

  11. #11

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    I really like the idea of a white splash.
    White offers the deck some great tools like Gerrard's Verdict, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares (i think we do not want our opponent to get life back so i prefer Path here) or Vindicate.
    The splash also seems to be rather easy to implemet.

    This would offer the deck 12 discards spells that force your opponent to discards 2 cards. It also offers some of the best removal in legacy.

    Have you thought about a single Quest for the Nihil Stone?

    Just a raw idea how a deck like this could look like:

    Land 20
    4 Badland
    4 Scrubland
    2 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    1 Plains
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Marshflat

    Discard 16
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Blightning
    4 Gerrard's Verdict

    Creatures 8
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Nyxathid

    Removal 11
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Path to Exile
    3 Vindicate

    Kill 5
    4 The Rack
    1 Quest for the Nihil Stone

    You could also go creature less and play cards like Ensnaring Bridge or Innocent Blood.

  12. #12

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I agree there IS too much lifeloss. Some stuff should definitely get cut. It was a rough list.
    I like the idea of running Storm World and Rack together. Confidant is probably out of place here. Same with lavamancer. Its just going to draw removal spells. I think its a better plan to play burn + discard that way your opponents STP's and PtE's are just dead cards.

    Play more burn and discard. I think this is a sound strategy:
    Aggro plan:
    Burn small creatures, make the opponent discard, hopefully hitting the lands he needs to drop bigger creatures or the creatures themselves, once the opponent is at a low hand count (aggro usually drops its empties its hand quickly and discard makes it even faster) Rack and Storm World should clear things up nicely. This strategy might be better accompanied by a mass removal spell like Firespout.

    Control plan:
    Dodge Counterbalance with discard, aim burn at creatures if they are small. I think discard is good against control anyway so this matchup should be easier.

    Combo:
    Distrupt earlier, burn the opponent down to a life at which AdN is not profitable and try to keep pressure on the opponent via discard so that he can't IGG loop with IT and LED.

    Discard/Burn:
    Disruption:
    4 Thoughtseize//Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Rise//Fall
    2 Blightning

    Damage:
    2 Price of Progress
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Smother
    4 The Rack
    4 Storm World

    Mana Base:
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    2 Mountain
    1 Tomb of Urami

    At least thats my take on it.
    I like the way it's going. I see a few things though that need changed:

    Creatures vs. creatureless is nearly irrelevant, at least from the CA standpoint. If you're playing discard, the opponent will just discard the StP's and PtE's to your 14 discard cards. I think the deck NEEDS Confidant- it's just the best CA engine you're going to have, and it doesn't produce much life loss in the deck.

    It's very possible that in order to run Bob, you may have to have some form of life gain, which is not unreasonable. The white splash is a possibility as it will clear up the next thing I'd like to point out which is- there aren't any bombs in this deck, everything is basically a little pinch to the opponent. It's time you start drop-kicking. Gerrad's Verdict could be a good addition as the last poster pointed out. Vampire nighthawk could actually help greatly in here as well. There's some punch in this card as it will keep your life total up while knocking theirs down, but most importantly, it will take care of any Tombstalkers or the like that get through, something the deck cannot handle as of now. Maybe a few Tombstalkers for yourself as well (2-3).

  13. #13
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Germany, RLP, KO
    Posts

    445

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    No love for Slavering Nulls?
    Last edited by sco0ter; 03-13-2010 at 02:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Member
    _erbs_'s Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Philippines
    Posts

    350

    Re: [Deck] Red Black Aggressive Discard

    hello,
    our proposed deck is almost similar, maybe we could brainstorm or somehow merge our ideas. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?16782-[deck]-Black-Red-Control

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)