[Deck] Excalibur
Current List:
[Deck] Excalibur
by Harry Matten Gillen aka hungryLIKEALION
This is the list I'm currently using. I believe it to be the most optimized version currently being played, but there's always room for improvement.
[Updated 1/6/11]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Mutavault
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
2 Path to Exile
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Spell Pierce
This list is the culmination of my playing the deck for 3 and a half months straight. It quickly became apparent to me that the deck wanted more creatures, which led to the inclusion of the faerie package (Vendi and Sower) that has proven to be one of the most identifying parts of the current deck. In fact, I almost believe this deck is now more of a Faerie deck than it is an SFM deck, believe it or not. I’ve won many games with the power of Vendilion Clique alone, without even needing equipment to help it along. Decreasing the deck’s dependency on equipment and increasing resiliency to Krosan Grip and artifact destruction is a solid deal. It also allowed me to get the blue count up to 21 for Force of Will, so I call that a win/win.
I cut the 4th SFM because it is a lot worse in multiples than people seem to realize, and drawing 3 SFMs + Equipment can make a hand extremely lackluster very quickly, and it’s cost me high profile matches, such as game 2 of the semi-finals against Dave Price (New Horizons) at the 3/13 Duel for Duals where I drew 3 stone forges, both jittes and SoFI. 3 SFM are still easily found thanks to cantrips, and we don’t end up with as many clogged draws. Additionally, as I stated above, SFM is no longer necessary for us to win thanks to the power of the faerie package, but the two complement each other very well.
Spell Snare replaced Daze in my deck for the first time at the Philly Open, where I split the Top 4. I’ve spoken at length about the change with Jeremy Smelski (GrooGrux) and he agrees that the change is warranted. Without mana denial, Daze just becomes a dead draw far too quickly for us. Also, since our deck is based more around consistent card quality than powerful bombs or combinations (Such as Vial+Standstill, Counterbalance, or Natural Order) it makes more sense to play a more consistent card than one designed for inconsistent blowouts.
A Brief History:
February 27th-28th Evangelos Papatsourachas piloted a bant colored deck containing new WWK card Stoneforge Mystic to 14th place at GP Madrid. His deck looked like this:
Mystic Control by Evangelos Papatsourachas
14th place GP Madrid 2/27/10-2/28/10
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
3 Tormod's Crypt
I saw the deck and immediately knew I would enjoy playing it. I was still trying to decide what to play at the March 13th Duel for Duals, so I decided to test it. Initial testing was positive across a number of matchups, but I did make some changes. At first I tried testing Serra Avenger as a 2 of since it's such a bomb with equipment, but testing showed that the deck did not really want Aether Vial, and without Vial, Avenger's pretty bad. I swapped out Vial for Hierarch and cut a daze for a SoLS, giving me the following list:
Fern Gully by Harry Matten Gillen
3rd place Jupiter Games Duel for Duals 3/13/10
4 Mutavault
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS
SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Wash Out
I stuck with the majority of Papatsourachas' choices, because they're very good. I'll go into card choices now.
MANABASE-
Basics- Wasteland protection, path to exile targets, don't play legacy without them. I play all three basics, Papatsourachas only played 2, but the green requirement in my deck is higher because I have Hierarch.
Duals- It would certainly be possible to play 3 tundra 3 tropical island, but having a savannah seems appropriate. Having noble hierarch increases the green requirements of the deck, meaning it's better to have more trops than tundras.
Fetches- As an aggro deck you need to get your colors fast, so 8 fetches provide the fixing you need.
Mutavaults- Mutavault is very important to this deck's function. Manlands have always been a great thing for aggro-control decks due to their versatility. The reason Mutavault gets the nod over Mishra's Factory is thanks to Spellstutter Sprite, though the proliferation of Lords of Atlantis in the format means swining with 3/3 unblockable lands is a very common play.
Wasteland- Wasteland could be playable in this deck, but it is less important to the deck’s function than mutavault, and serves fewer purposes for us.
CREATURES-
Noble Hierarch- Hierarch is incredible. This is not really news, but it definitely needs to be said. Playing daze-proof two drops, using exalted to bash past their goyfs, and the extra mana stability are just a few of the awesome benefits this little creature provides. Hierarch makes all of our counterspells better by allowing us to develop our board while holding up counters. Papatsourachas played Vial in this slot, but with only 12 creatures, Vial has a chance to just sit around doing nothing, and is much slower than Hierarch. Hierarch can also pick up equipment when need be, and can help with the equip costs of moving your jitte around before and after combat, as well as allow for hardcast Force of Wills with great consistency.
Tarmogoyf- He’s Tarmogoyf. He’s a cheap, reliable beater against control and a solid defense plan against agro. Any Bant deck worth its salt will be playing it.
Spellstutter Sprite- Integral to the deck's function. Sprite is the most synergistic piece of the deck, as almost every card in the deck interacts with it profitably. Sprite's synergy with mutavault makes it a very powerful hard counter with built in card advantage. Given how few fliers there are in the format, it can almost always connect with equipment, or just beat down with exalted triggers from Noble Hierarch while Tarmogoyf holds the ground. It primarily counters removal aimed at your equipped creatures. Sprite should almost never be cast without countering a spell, but some of the deck’s toughest judgement calls come from when you have to decide whether or not to cast a blank sprite.
Stoneforge Mystic- Pretty much the entire point of the deck. This is the thing that makes it unique. With how powerful Jitte and SoFI are, being able to reliably find them and put them into play through countermagic is amazing. While resolving multiples of these isn't really necessary, the first one will sometimes get countered, so having a second is never bad. And if the first one does resolve, having both Jitte and SoFI (or a backup Jitte if they have it too) is never a bad thing.
I am often asked what equipment I search for first with Stoneforge Mystic. Unfortunately, I cannot really give a firm answer because it is very heavily dependent on the individual circumstances of the game at hand. If I had to put a number to it, I probably fetch SoFI first 60% of the time, but that’s not because it’s “better”. The more you play the deck, the more you get a feel for which equipment is more appropriate in your given situation. My best advice is to playtest like crazy and just practice. You’ll learn what each equipment does for you and the best way to utilize it pretty quickly.
Vendilion Clique- Vendilion Clique is, simply put, a house in this format. A 3 power flier playable on turn two with Noble hierarch, it is a threat throughout the entire game with evasion and a very powerful disruption effect. Vendilion Clique is one of the best creatures in threshold mirrors as most opponents will not have their own fliers, meaning they can only deal with it by using swords to plowshares or countering it, and the clock it provides (Often combined with either equipment or exalted) is huge. This card is also one of the best reasons to run Hierarch over Vial. If you tick a vial up to 3 to play it, you can never use it for your other creatures again, whereas Hierarch lets you play Clique quickly and get the flying clock on even sooner. Historically, I have run two ever since I added the faerie package, but its power seems to warrant a third if it is so desired.
Sower of Temptation- Papatsourachas’ original list contained two Threads of Disloyalty. Threads is not a bad card, but is narrow, and actually falls victim to a key piece of dissynergy with Sword of Fire and Ice, where Pro-Blue will cause it to fall off of a stolen creature. This is more relevant than it may seem. Sower of Temptation, on the other hand, has a number of advantages over Threads. While still capable of stealing Tarmogoyfs, Sower will also steal larger creatures (And with New Horizons showing up more, this is important). As a faerie, it powers up Spellstutter sprite. Finally, it is even a 2/2 flying body which adds to the clock and can carry equipment in the air. Roll all this together and it pretty handily defeats Threads for our creature-stealing slot.
EQUIPMENT-
Umezawa’s Jitte- Jitte is widely known as the most powerful equipment ever printed, and for good reason. The shenanigans that jitte allows are nothing short of ridiculous, and its complete hosing of agro decks from Zoo to Goblins to Merfolk makes it very well positioned in the format. It is typically best to run two, because, let’s face it, everyone and their grandmother runs Jitte, if not maindeck then in the board. As a legendary artifact, it’s important to be able to stick the last Jitte when your opponent has them as well, because it turns out Jitte is capable of hosing us as well thanks to all our 1 toughness creatures.
Sword of Fire and Ice- SoFI has always been a very powerful equipment. With how little actual card drawing there is in legacy, it doesn't take a lot of it to put you way ahead. Connecting with SoFI even once is usually enough to put you far enough ahead to win most games. Protection from Blue is huge against Merfolk as it means they cannot block the equipped creature, and Protection from Red can smash Goblins and help significantly against Zoo. However, the real draw to this card is the combat damage to player activation. Shock is capable of killing a large number of creatures in the format, from all Goblins and Merfolk to Noble Hierarch and Dark Confidant. Getting to draw a card on top of that makes every connection a +2 card advantage. And if the opponent has no creature to shock, you can send it at the dome to enhance the clock. All around, a great card. Any list without it is doing it wrong.
Sword of Light and Shadow- This card has been one of the more frequently debated slots in the deck. Those who would run it typically point to the Protection from White as the biggest draw to the card. Yeah, Pro White is great, I’ll admit. Unfortunately, the rest of what SoLS does pales in comparison to what SoFI does. Gaining life on attack is largely irrelevant because this deck will almost always be playing aggro, and when we are in need of life Jitte just does it better, while allowing us to block with the creature as opposed to having to send it in to attack. Seldom is a creature returned to our hand because of Swords to Plowshares’ stranglehold on the removal of the format, and typically drawing a fresh card will be just as good if not better anyway. SoLS can be useful late in the game and when racing, but typically is not powerful enough to warrant inclusion. And anyone who says you should play it over SoFI is just plain wrong. I award them no points, and may God have mercy on their soul.
Basilisk Collar- Basilisk Collar has been debated a bit off and on, but generally does not do enough for the deck to warrant inclusion. Allowing Spellstutter Sprites to trade with larger creatures is cute, but Jitte already basically does that, and can do a lot more ridiculous things on top of it. If your metagame is HUGE on New Horizons I could see playing it since that is a matchup where the deathtouch is largely relevant, but I personally would not choose to include it.
COUNTERSPELLS-
Force of Will- We're running blue in legacy. I don’t think I have to explain why this is here. 21 Blue cards supports it well enough, increased from 19 in Papatsourachas’ list. I’d be very careful about going any lower than that, as I think it’s a dangerous risk you take by doing so.
Spell Snare vs. Daze
These two cards fulfill a similar function, being early counters to stop opponents from playing threatening cards for little or no mana. While daze is a very powerful card and a staple of many legacy decks for years going back, in this deck it becomes dead extremely quickly due to our complete lack of mana disruption. If you were to run Wasteland, then Daze would become viable for the deck, but without it it is hardly worth playing.
Spell Snare, on the other hand, is spectacular in this deck. It can counter a huge number of cards that give us serious problems throughout the entire game, such as Tarmogoyf, Counterbalances Jitte, Dark Confidant, Standstill, Engineered Explosives set for 2 (One of the best cards against us), and the list goes on. Simply put, Spell Snare does what this deck needs it to much better than Daze does, so it gets the nod.
CANTRIPS-
Brainstorm- Obviously, with 8 fetchlands, it's the best cantrip available.
Ponder- This has always been a good spell, and it makes a great 2-of for the deck. The deck wants a little more card filtering than 4 brainstorm, and Ponder is one of the best topdecks at any point in the game, able to quickly find your best cards coming up or shuffle away all the bad cards you have on top if there is nothing you need.
REMOVAL-
Swords to Plowshares- The best removal spell in the format, it's better for the deck than Path to Exile because we have a lot of damage potential due to all our equipments and ramping the opponent is never a good thing for a threshold deck, even when we don’t have a mana denial plan.
Threads of Disloyalty- This is amazing in any matchup where they have Tarmogoyf, which means a good deal of the format. In matchups where it's dead you can brainstorm it away or pitch it to FoW. 90% of the time, this is a blowout. This card is not synergistic with Sword of Fire and Ice. Equipping SoFI to a Threads-enchanted creature will cause Threads to fall off. This problem is one of the big reasons Sower has replaced it, as it comes up more often than one may initially suspect. Still, Threads is a powerful card if you’re expecting a lot of Tarmgoyfs and not a lot of artifact/enchantment removal.
SIDEBOARD-
Graveyard Hate- Going forward I expect Tormod’s Crypt to be the most popular choice for graveyard hate, with Faerie Macabre and Relic of Progenitus close behind. Reanimator’s weakening means that graveyard hate is less necessary against it than it once was, but it’s still a good idea to pack some means of disrupting the graveyard since it also has utility against Life From The Loam decks, traditionally bad matchups for us.
Path To Exile- It can be brought in against Merfolk and Zoo as STP 5-8, though 4 are probably not necessary on the sideboard.
Bant Charm-More versatile than Path to Exile, it goes in the same slot. Takes care of creatures while also blowing up jittes, countering instants, and pitching to Force of Will. Could be well worth including.
Washout- It is an excellent answer to Progenitus, Iona, Inkwell Leviathan, and can also be played against combo decks to clean up Empty The Warrens tokens. Also has utility in matchups like Enchantress and Prison decks. I’m constantly finding new ways to play this card, and cannot recommend it enough.
Krosan Grip- It's dangerous to leave home without it in Legacy, because you'll almost always run into counterbalance at some point. Our deck is heavily centered around 2, which makes counterbalance even stronger against us.
Ethersworn Canonist- It's good against combo, but a little slow. Given the banning of Mystical Tutor, additional combo hate in our board is unlikely to be necessary.
Hydro/Blue Elemental Blast- You can bring it in versus Goblins or Zoo or Burn, but those are all pretty good matchups already so it's probably not neccesary.
Meddling Mage- Also presumably for combo, but it's not that good anymore and I wouldn't play it.
Lightning Greaves- Lightning Greaves is very strong against Lands, shutting off Maze of Ith and giving you a faster clock. If you expect Lands in your meta, consider boarding one.
The Main Debate: Aether Vial v. Noble Hierarch
The original list Excalibur is based on, posted above, includes Vial. Many of the lists here run vial. Let me put this bluntly. This is not the place for Vial.
Decks that run vial profitably, most notably goblins and merfolk, gain huge swings of tempo from them. Merfolk gains the ability to daze with little to no backlash, since it needs far less mana to land threats. Goblin uses vial to flood the board, something it can do consistently with approx. 36 creatures. The original post runs 12 creatures, a third of most Goblin lists and 40% fewer than typical Merfolk builds. Uncounterable creatures and combat tricks are good, but devoting 4 slots to an enabler that quickly loses value is foolish. Protection from counterspells is unnecessary, particularly since one will typically run into two main counterspells in the modern metagame – Force of Will and Daze. Noble Hierarch protects our two drops from daze already, and does it a turn sooner, which means it’s pretty much strictly superior to Vial against Daze. As for Force of Will, given how consistent our deck is and the huge array of threats we present, there is hardly a creature we play that we don’t want our opponent to Force of Will since they must 2-for-1 themselves to do it. If they FoW our Stoneforge Mystic, we drop a Goyf and a Vendilion Clique and go on our merry way.
Hierarch, on the other hand, fixes our mana. In fact, it gives us an additional mana after our investment and accelerates, while vial keeps our threats in hand for a turn longer for fear of counters. NH helps us punch through with goyf wars, activates mutavault, carries dropped equipment in a pinch, and isn’t as bad of a topdeck. After boarding it helps us cast timely Grips or Wash Outs. Finally, it allows us to run the Faerie Package (Vendi+Sower) instead of crappy cards like Meddling Mage that you will see vial players running just to increase their creature count. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather be playing with Vendilion Clique and Sower ANY day.
By all means test it! You can do very well with Vial as evidenced by some builds here, but Hierarch is the better choice.
MATCHUP ANALYSIS-
Example sideboarding strategies done with my 3/13 version.
MERFOLK-70/30 our favor. If they're not playing Goyf, it's more like 75/25 our favor. Our equipment is key here, as they cannot beat an active Jitte or SoFI without a really ridiculous draw. With your ability to consistently grab both of these pieces in the first 4-5 turns, it's not hard to overwhelm them, particularly since they have no removal. Versions with Kira are better against us, but we still have the advantage.
GOBLINS-75/25 our favor. Like Merfolk, except they have no counterspells. Both Jitte and SoFI are pretty much game against them. Rb versions can be annoying with hand disruption, but that's about it.
ZOO-60/40 our favor. Once again, it's pretty much all about Jitte. You have to be more careful here because they have pridemage to kill your equipment, but between the 4 equips and threads you have enough bombs to overwhelm them most games, and Spellstuttering their paths on your goyfs is usually enough to swing things wildly in your favor.
NATURAL ORDER BANT-50/50. Game one is all about getting Sword of Fire and Ice and racing them before they kill you with Progenitus. If they don't make Progenitus, you'll be able to handle the rest of their deck via Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and your Goyfs most games. You have no maindeck out to Counterbalance though, so be careful! Don't let them resolve top, and if they do resolve CB, be as careful as possible when casting important spells. Games 2 and 3 Washout is savage, letting you bounce their Progenitus and recur any Spellstutters you've already used to counter more spells. Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation are also amazing in this matchup.
REANIMATOR-50/50. Game one you have to hope they don't have the nuts draw, but with 8 hard counters you can keep them off their game long enough to kill them with a quick SoFI or Jitte with any luck. Most of their spells cost only one mana, so Spellstutter is very strong. You bring in 6 GY hate and 3 Wash Out for games 2 and 3, evening things out significantly.
STORM COMBO-50/50. Weak pilots will be no match for your FoWs, Dazes, and Spellstutters. Strong pilots will stand much more of a chance. Those who maindeck discard over chants are more resilient. The matchup is worse if the storm player knows what countermagic we’re playing. Other issues include lack of a clock until turn 3, giving storm time to set up. Vial is notably worse here.
BELCHER-65/35. You have FoW, so you should often be able to just shut them down right away. If they don't have the turn 1 kill, Spellstutter is very good here. On the play you can race 8 goblin tokens with Hierarch and Stoneforge mystic if you get Jitte.
TEMPO THRESH- 45/55 against. Obviously, this is one matchup where Vial is actually better than Hierarch, but since it’s on the downswing in the metagame I don’t think it’s a particularly strong argument. Snare is amazing for both sides, though they tend to function better off one land. Most of our creatures are well within burn range, which is unfortunate because Fire tends to be a huge blowout. Resolved equipment can end things quickly against non-goose threats. Our color requirements aren’t that severe that mana disruption is game breaking, just a speed bump, but sometimes that’s all Thresh needs. Play it tight, keep a mana heavy hand if you can, and don’t screw up. They can do a lot with just a fetch on the board.
STAX- 40/60 against. We don’t quite have the clock to get them. Both Vial and Noble Hierarch help tremedeously, enabling play around trinisphere should it resolve. Sometimes their bombs just land though, and things get complicated in a hurry. Trygon Predator and Grip out of the board can make it easier, but this deck is more designed against creatures than lock pieces. Countermagic is what keeps us in.
LANDS- 35/65 against. Maze hurts, tabernacle hurts. This deck cannot reliably keep loam off the table without some sort of riptide lab effect, which would only be wasteland’d. Preboard equipment does next to nothing, though post board we have Lightning Greaves to protect. Try to Clique away Life from the Loams if possible. In the end, lands is designed for this sort of matchup.
If I'm missing anything important, please let me know. I'd love to get help with this deck, because I think it's a very powerful choice in the current metagame. I can't recommend giving it a shot enough. I'll gladly answer any questions anyone has.
Thank you for reading.
--hungryLIKEALION, 3/15/10
Updated exstensively,
--hungryLIKEALION, 6/24/10 (With special thanks to Tammit67 and mchainmail.)
Last edited by hungryLIKEALION; 01-05-2011 at 01:28 PM.
Originally Posted by Bardo
What about 3-4 Thopter Foundry and 1 Sword of the Meek?
The deck looks fun, but I'm skeptical that you're 70-30 against Merfolk, Goblins, 60-40 against Zoo, and 50-50 with NOThresh and Reanimator. On the other hand, those finishes are pretty impressive. Are there tournament reports somewhere so that we can read more about how those matches play out?
InfoNinjas
When I saw the Mystic Control by Evangelos Papatsourachas, I found it interesting but as you I was surprised by the 4 vials for only 12 creatures.
When I saw your report and your list (something like yesterday or the day before), I could not resist anymore to try it out.
The first change I wanted to see was to integrate wasteland instead of ponders (*2) and some of the colour lands (*2). Why wasteland ? Because the deck needs a protection against Maze of Ith and because the deck needs a lot of colourless mana (for equipping).
The second change I made was "no-surprise" to remove the Threads for 2 ninja random slots (mainly for testing but I would not reject the possibility to stick with them) : Ninja of the Deep Hours and Mistblade Shinobi. They enable to use several times the CITP effects and these creatures are good in themselves.
About the SB, I think that it plays too few anti-artifacts slots. I already had to face Null Rod and it was not the most pleasant moment in the game. Wash Out is awesome and this is certainly the deck where you want to play it, but you need something specific to deal with artifacts more than 2*Krosan Grip. Maybe Trygon Predator.
This is an interesting idea. It would take the deck in a slightly different direction, but I'd enjoy testing it out. I'll try cutting the threads and a ponder and see how it goes, and post my results here.
Why are you skeptical of these numbers? I know it doesn't make much sense for a deck with islands to have a good merfolk matchup, but I've yet to lose a match to UG merfs with this deck, and on the day of the tournament I went 4-0 in games against them. Goblins is a complete cake walk because they play either 0 or 1 answer to artifacts in the main, meaning Sword of Fire and Ice and Jitte put you so far ahead they can't keep up. Since Rb goblins is currently more popular than Rg goblins they don't usually have krosan grip, meaning you just have to hold a counter for their artifact removal and you've basically guaranteed victory. Zoo may be closer to 50-50, but I feel like it's at least slightly in your favor, if not 60-40. As for Reanimator, I'm giving a lot of credit to the sideboard, since 6 gy hate cards (3 or 4 of which should probably be faerie macabre) and 3 washouts is very good. Game one they will win unless you have a very good hand and get spellstutter online immediately, but games 2 and 3 you have tons of counterspells, graveyard hate, and washout. For NO Bant it's similar. You can race progenitus in game 1 with Sword of Fire and Ice (I did it at the tournament saturday) and games 2 and 3 you have washout to wreck their natural orders, so you basically just have to beat counterbalance, because their tarmogoyfs will not beat yours in a fair fight due to your equipment. Also, Spellstutter is a champ here, both countering their removal/goyfs/cbs/tops and producing a 1/1 that can pick up sword of fire and ice. If you connect just once with SoFI, it's usually enough to put you so far ahead they can't recover. (Draw a card and kill your noble hierarch? Sign me up!) If you test the deck and find my numbers are innaccurate, let me know. These numbers are all just my initial reactions, because I've only been playing the deck for two weeks and am still trying to find time to test it. College has been keeping me pretty busy. But in the coming weeks I'll get more testing done and refine the numbers to reflect their true values.
Here's the report I wrote for the DforDs. I haven't found anything by Papatsourachas about his experience in madrid yet, but will post it if I find anything.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...3rd-out-of-106
I don't think you can cut any more colored lands without significantly weakening the mana base. If you want wastelands, I think you either have to cut mutavaults or spells. I agree that maze of ith is a significant problem for this deck, but I don't think even wasteland will make the 43lands matchup winnable, so I'd rather just let that one go. Threads is really good though, and I'd urge you to keep it in the main for at least some testing.
I've considered fitting in maindeck Qasali Pridemages. You can't cut blue cards from the deck without endangering force of will, so they'd pronbably go in over the Sword of Light and Shadow and the 4th Stoneforge Mystic. I'm going to test a configuration like this some time soon. As for more artifact answers in the sideboard, well, if you put the pridemages main that's probably not a problem. If you don't, It'd be easy to cut the 4th path for a 3rd grip because 4 paths aren't really necessary. I haven't seen null rod in play in a game of legacy in over a year, but that may just be my meta. It is certainly viable to put more artifact hate on the board.
Also, I too noticed Ninja of the Deep Hours would be good in this deck, but did not yet test it. My friend still has my copies of the ninja, so once I get them back from him I'll probably test them in the same slot as the potential pridemages.
Please, if anyone tests this deck or has anything they want added to the primer, please let me know! :)
Thanks!
About thé mana base I propose, it's 7 fetches + 3 basics + 5 duals (2 tundras 2 trops 1 Savannah) 4 wastes 4 muta 4 nobles and 4 Brainstorms to dig into the other colours. If you add the fact that not a dingle spell requires double coloured mana, it looks acceptable to me. I hope testing will prove me right. Before pridemage I'd play trygon as an answer because it has evasion which is awesome for wearing equipments.
Well, if the wasteland manabase is working for you, then more power to you. I just get really nervous about running so few colored sources.
As for Pridemage vs. Trygon, I like both cards quite a bit. The exalted from pridemage is sweet and the ability to come down and eliminate an artifact/enchantment on the same turn is very good. Trygon, on the other hand, has the ability to evasively carry SoFI and also eliminate multiple artifacts/enchantments over a few turns. Also, it's pitchable to FoW. I'm not sure which one I like more for this deck at the moment, but I believe both are viable options. I'll test both and post here when I get an idea on which I like better.
Hungry, why i can't see any War Monk in your list? That guy is a HOUSE!
I'm testing it with:
+3 Rh0xXxZ0r War Monk
-2 Threads
-1 SoLS
But still looking a room to play Foundry combo (Maybe a "transexual" SB?)
A couple of thoughts:
Stoneforge Mystic is nuts. His ability to "vial in" equipment is just gross. You absolutely need to run Basilisk Collar. It let's you use Spellstutters and Mystics to kill off opposing fatties. Iona isn't very scary when you've got a 1/1 death touch flier.
SoLS is superior to SoFI. Protection from StP and a recursion engine for useful chumps (Sprite/Mystic again) is far more important than 2 damage and a card. 2 damage doesn't kill anything important anymore and I would argue that getting back a utility creature is far stronger than a random card which may or may not be useful.
Except that pro red and pro blue singlehandedly beat 2 of the DtB and 2 damage kills alot more creatures than youd think
Uh, you can still lose to reanimator very very easily with a 1/1 deathtouch in play, reanimator plays more than one creature meaning that if they shut you off with iona they probably buy a little time to find a second fatty to beat you down with.
also SoFI is nuts, utility creatures are actually making a comeback in months (survival, Noble Hierarch in various decks, zoo plays lavamancer, ect ect) and as such creates alot more card advantage than SoLS. also SoLS only does something if you have a creature in the yard which is not always the case.
@fuzzy
RWM is a house but this deck doesnt really want to commit 3 mana to a creature that doesnt have a CIPE. as was stated above we already have very good matchups against aggro, therefore adding more anti aggro cards that will not be as effective against control doesnt seem like a good idea.
declaring war on magic ignorance since 2009.
for the record i have no good ideas. im just pointing out yours are terrible too.
As mentioned before, I would strongly suggest running Basilisk Collar. It can turn Sprite or Mystic into a wall that can get rid of pretty much everything - Goyf, Tombstalker, ect, as well as enabling your Goyf to outrace if needed.
Stoneforge - reasons on running four? With the Brainstorms and Ponders, you are bound to run into him(with three copies) sooner or later, or, if you don't, chances are VERY slim that you won't hit an equipment or a Mystic.
As for Trygon vs Quasali, I think it comes down to your preference - do you want the evasion or the exalted and versatility?
Personally, I'd go for Quasali, the ability to instant speed resolve AND to resolve in response to removal AND to resolve the turn it comes in is just more powerful.
Also, Thopter/Meek combo may work well -> In one of my various poor person decks, I have a deck that uses Mystic to grab Sword, and then Thopter's as blockers/life gainers. Gives you something to dump spare mana into, as well as giving you an outlet for later game play. It also may cause them to burn postboard artifact removal on the Foundry rather than, say, popping your Jitte.
The thing about Basilisk Collar is that it doesn't really do anything Jitte or SoFI don't already do. Jitte already lets your weaker creautres trade with much bigger creatures/win goyf wars, as does SoFI. I just don't see very many situations that actually pop up where Jitte just isn't better. I mean, You have to get a hit in with Jitte first, but that's not hard to do in this deck. The amount of situations where I'd rather have the collar are few enough that I'm not worried about including it.
I, personally, like Pridemage better for this deck, but am still open to testing Predator. I just think not needing to attack is very relevant.
I'm excited to test ThopterSword in this deck. Seems very interesting, though it may be the danger of cool things. Either way, I'm going to try it out soon.
Edit//Oh, and the reasoning for running four stoneforge mystics is because they will almost certainly counter the first one you play if they can, so drawing a second is almost necessary. This is okay because drawing two is not a problem at all. The only thing better than having Jitte or SoFI is having Jitte AND SoFI. :D
Have you considered SDT for this deck? It looks like it would fit nicely in place of 2 ponders and a sword (either one, probably SoFI since it's less useful) and would definitely help in a long game (and this is pretty much goodstuff.dec anyway, so more broken shit can't hurt). I found that against opponents with lots of removal (Rock and Aggro Loam) I was having a lot of trouble maintaining a board presence or recovering after a sweeper and I think SDT would go a long way toward fixing that. I also wasn't such a huge fan of Wash Out in the board. I noticed you had listed it at least once as FOW-fodder; isn't there anything more useful?
Great success!
Washout is, IMO, the best, most flexible answer to Progenitus and Iona for this deck to play. It's important for a deck like this to be able to answer these creautres if they are resolved, because it can be difficult to race them. For a deck like this, I think it's fine to include a 3-of to combat two of the most played decks in the format's most explosive plays.
As for SDT, I have not considered it. I'm certainly willing to test it as a 3 of, given the number of shuffle effects in the deck, and will post how that goes here. You're also welcome to test it yourself and let me know how that goes for you. I probably won't get any meaningful testing in with the deck until this Sunday, but I'll be making a big post then to let everyone know how it goes with all these different variations.
Jitte is not going to let a 1/2 Mystic trade for a 5/6 goyf. It's not going to let a Spellstutter hold back an Iona until you can find an answer. I guess if you really don't like Collar, that's fine, but I run it in my Doran and it is amazing. It usually occupies a small body like Stoneforge until I've got something bigger like a 'goyf or a Doran to move it to and start gaining reams of life. Doran, the Siege War Monk is some good.
Edit: I guess my biggest point is that Collar makes a difference if you're behind when it comes down. If you're behind when Jitte comes down, it probably won't save you. If you're already winning, then yes, Jitte will seal things faster than Collar will.
I won't deny that the trading 1/2s or 1/1s for 5/6s and 7/7s is exciting, but Jitte does the same thing with just a bit more work. I'm perfectly willing to just chump a goyf with a mystic to get the jitte counters neccesary for my mutavault or second mystic to kill it next turn, or whatever. Jitte's an incredible card for saving you when you're behind. Collar may be better if you find yourself with a horde of 1/1s and 1/2s against multiple goyfs, but by moving Jitte back and forth between offense and defense you can easily accrue enough counters to pull your ass out of the fire very quickly.
Still, you've made some fine points and I'm willing to test collar over SoLS and will do so this weekend.
I'm seriously gonna have to take a ton of notes on all these different card choices I'm testing...
I agree that RWM is very seductive with equipments. With SoLaS, it's +8 life per turn and 5 damage to the opponent. You race Progenitus quite easily. BUT, its mana cost is a problem for 2 reasons:
- the deck needs to play a lot of colourless lands (mutavault, and I would even argue that wasteland is necessary), so that RWM is more difficult to play than a simple 3CC creature.
- Wash Out will bounce it too often. The deck proposed in the original post has this: it plays only 16 coloured permanents, with 8 having come into play effects and not more than 8 of the same colour. This results in the fact that Wash out is simply a great answer to every non-artifact, non-land and non-Eldrazi (:-) permanent.
No. Collar is really not that great with 1/1s. Collar becomes useful as soon as you play big creatures in order to be able to take advantage of Lifelink.
No. SoFI is the best. I haven't played a lot this particular deck but I've played during a long time Stoneforge Mystic in such a shell and let me tell you that I often tutor for SoFI before Jitte. SoLaS is definitely less useful but still necessary IMO in order to protect from removal and to block all day Iona/Sphinx/Stalker.SoLS is superior to SoFI. Protection from StP and a recursion engine for useful chumps (Sprite/Mystic again) is far more important than 2 damage and a card. 2 damage doesn't kill anything important anymore and I would argue that getting back a utility creature is far stronger than a random card which may or may not be useful.
Wash Out is really impressive against a lot of decks, from Enchantress to Reanimator and Progenitus. Its weakness is that it does not enable you to deal with artifacts nor lands (see my post earlier). That's why I think that playing Wasteland is useful and that playing more antiartifacts in the SB is necessary too.
I think that the deck has a sufficient number of mana sinks not to add more with top.
Why would you trade Goyf with Mystic. Just let it attack you and attack back. Eventually you'll lose 1 life a turn, so will he. You could also have tutored SoLaS to lose 2 life a turn but the opponent 3 life and be able to resurrect your other creatures. Just play the deck and you'll understand that 1 goyf is rarely an issue (although it's sometimes the most annoying creature since there is no equipment that provides protection against it).
Jitte will save your ass far more often than Collar does. Collar forces you to trade. With Jitte you can just attack once to get counters and then start blocking.Edit: I guess my biggest point is that Collar makes a difference if you're behind when it comes down. If you're behind when Jitte comes down, it probably won't save you. If you're already winning, then yes, Jitte will seal things faster than Collar will.
In fact I did, and I have some thoughts based on results:
-SDT was way too mana-intensive. The deck is really running its bare minimum number of lands at the moment and then only because of Noble Hierarch, which saved me from being Wasted out of several games. Fetching basics is just the wrong play when so many of your turns 1-3 plays require U+W/G. I also would not add any more colorless sources without first dropping Mutavault, which I think is a bad decision because the deck has no real mana denial plan and the Mutavault beats were seriously useful, especially with Hierarch. It's also a major Wasteland target to take heat off your duals. Conversely, no one will Waste a Waste when they can nab a dual; this deck is mana intensive, so both of you being down a Waste+ dual is worse for you than your opponent out a Waste and you out a Mutavault. I think Sword/ Foundry will net you the same conclusion that SDT did me.
-Cutting SoFI (to test SDT) was a huge mistake. I now have much greater appreciation for the swords, especially this one. It really shined against Goblins, where I went 0-4 with the SDT build and then 6-0 with Ponder and SoFI back in (only 1 game was not due to SoFI) and Burn (2-0). SoFI tended to be my #1 SFM target against any creature-based strategy. It's typically easier to counter all of an opponent's white removal and be protected from red burn (as opposed to the reverse) when they've got both (Zoo, Sligh). When I read your report I was surprised to find that you usually opted for Jitte, where I almost always preferred one sword or other unless I opened with Jitte and had no SFM. I don't know why since Jitte has always been awesome for me in other decks, but the situations that have come up to date were always better served by a sword.
-I've become more comfortable with Wash Out because I can see how it's extremely useful against Progenitus, Iona and Reanimator, though I haven't actually cast it yet. On the other hand, while I originally thought 4 PtE was correct I'm now thinking I'd rather have only 2 or 3. I never needed or boarded in all 4, but there were a couple of times I wished I'd had 3 Grips or Macabres in the board. I know you also run Crypt, but it's never really been as useful as Macabre since 2 is usually enough to nab the problem cards (Loam, Reanimator targets, Ichorid) while Crypt is slow and unless you want to play it early (I prefer hiding my hate), it's pretty easy to play around. I'm going to try swapping it with Relic to see if I get better results, or if the extra mana requirement is just too much.
I played (to my recollection) the following matches:
Goblins (6-4) and Burn (2-0) see above: SoFI is a hoser.
Enchantress (1-1) got disconnected early into G3, but I was lucky to win G2. He stabilized with Blood Moon and Runed Halo on goyf then Moon actually helped me when it left him with only 1 white source and let me to bash with Jitt'd SSS while Halo #2 sat in his hand.
Thopter Combo (3-0) deck from GP: Madrid, though the pilot was pretty inexperienced because these were complete walkovers due to a handful of play mistakes.
Reanimator (3-3) Faerie Macabre is the ultimate Reanimator hate and the reason I'm using 3: uncounterable, instant and typically unexpected. Also would be useful for Aggro Loam, Ichorid and Lands. When it didn't show up or during G1, I had to pray I could win the counter war or already had a strong enough board to win through resolved whatever (usually Inkwell).
Zoo (2-1) depended on whether or not I could land SFM and then vial in a sword. Opted against fetching Jitte first 2 games because the pump made their guys blockable, where with Jitte I wouldn't have been able to afford to trade (SFM+2 counters for Ape/ Nacatl/ whatever). G3 he left after I got a 2-for-0. Loam Lion blocked SFM+SoLS and he bolted, I countered with SSS, GG.
Merfolk (3-1) Again, SoFI is a beating. The first game he let SFM land and that was it. The next 3 games were a question of whether or not I opened on SFM or drew into it before I ran out of StP for LoA or goofy was too small to beat a 'folk. Then, I just had to get him on the table. In 2 of 3 games, I did.
Janky homebrews (3-0) resolve SFM, protect with counters and win. Haven't had any trouble yet with weird or awkward non-meta decks.
I'll be looking to test against more randoms, but hopefully my playtest buddy (the guy who I played against Goblins and Reanimator with) will be available online tomorrow to test his actual decks (Zoo, Bant). I will be testing a Basilisk Collar instead of 1 Jitte in the main and a new sideboard of:
3 Wash Out, 3 Krosan Grip, 3 Faerie Macabre, 2 Path to Exile, 2 Relic of Progenitus, 2 not sure, Relics for now but maybe Collar+ something else here?
I'll report back my findings then and hopefully you'll have had the chance to test a bit yourself but it's 4:22 am now so I think I'll go to sleep.
Great success!
So, I consider taking your (Hungrylikealion) list to a smaller weekly tournament, as there is quite a lot of dredge in my meta, how would you board?
In: 4 Crypts, 2 Faeries and 3 Wash out
Out: 2 Ponder, 2 Threads, 1 SOFI + ???
would be my first thougt.
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