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Thread: [Deck] The Gate

  1. #1981

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    Wait.. so T1 liliana isn't good enough for you? what about T1 discard+bob/blossom/hymn. Then maybe T2 slaughter games? It's certainly better than anything traditional Jund can do anyway.

    Might be worth it to test with some chalice/magus of the moon in the board as well.
    Dark Ritual never belonged in The Gate, and still shouldn't be there. It's a deck that incrementally gains advantages over multiple turns. Since Deathrite is gone, as is Probe, going the old route of removal/discard, discard, threat, threat is ideal and true to its roots.

  2. #1982

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    The format is too fast not to play Dark Ritual.

    Show and Tell and Storm are about to make a huge comeback. First turn Ritual into Thoughtseize and Hymn is the best chance this deck has of fighting this.

    I wish they printed a half decent Devotion card. Grey Merchant is just one mana too much to serve as a reliable finisher.

  3. #1983

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    If you have a turn-one Thoughtseize and turn-two Hymn, why are you going three-for-three turn one and gaining no true advantage, when you can go two-for-three and gain an advantage on the second turn after hitting a key spell turn one?

    Dark Ritual is a card that belongs in decks that want to get ahead fast. The Gate isn't a deck that does that. Decks like Show and Tell have a terrible match-up intrinsically against targeted discard, so using your second turn after hitting them the first turn with a discard spell to gain actual card advantage is just better because it doesn't require you to waste several slots.

    And Liliana into ultimate isn't going to be as great situationally as it could be, as Stifle is poised to make a huge comeback. Bringing the deck back to its roots in my mind is the best way for it to represent itself to the format: incremental, pinpointed discard followed by discard or a threat on turn two or three.

  4. #1984

  5. #1985

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Gifted Aetherborne is superior to Nighthawk.

    The deck needs to play at least 17 black mana sources.

    Also the deck would ideally play a finisher as a two of, or replace Innocent Blood with a 2/2 split of Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

    Otherwise the build looks solid.

    After those changes, this is what I would play right now.

    [4] Dark Confidant
    [4] Faerie Macabre
    [4] Gatekeeper of Malakir
    [4] Gifted Atherborn
    [2] Kitesail Freebooter
    [2] Phyrexian Revoker
    [2] Liliana of the Void
    [1] Liliana Last Hope

    [4] Hymn to Tourach
    [4] Fatal Push
    [2] Inquisition of Kozilek
    [2] Thoughtseize
    [2] Cabal Therapy
    [2] Umezawa's Jitte

    [16] Swamp
    [4] Wasteland
    [1] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 07-13-2018 at 09:06 AM.

  6. #1986

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Innocent Blood doesn't make any sense in this list though as he plays a lot of creatures that don't want to be sacced and there's no Persecutor as well.

  7. #1987

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    For that trade-off, Innocent Blood kills larger threats out of Reanimator and Sneak and Show and kills Nimble Mongoose, Marit Lage and True-Name Nemesis - cards this deck would otherwise have trouble with unless you get to three mana for Gatekeeper or a few Edicts (if you run them). The deck runs Bitterblossom, so you can always sacrifice one of your tokens. It also helps off Bob if you're going to die.

    It's not like every time Innocent Blood was ever cast that you absolutely had to have Abyssal Persecutor to make it worthwhile. Persecutor's interaction with Therapy is what made him so good - not the inclusion of Innocent Blood. Also, the math to support needing seventeen black sources was more of an issue with multiple Persecutors in the deck. You can get away with fifteen or sixteen without him in your list.

    Gate to Phyrexia pulls serious weight out of the board, as well. Being able to off Chalices and other troublesome artifacts with a Bitterblossom on board is just cruel.

  8. #1988
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    For that trade-off, Innocent Blood kills larger threats out of Reanimator and Sneak and Show and kills Nimble Mongoose, Marit Lage and True-Name Nemesis - cards this deck would otherwise have trouble with unless you get to three mana for Gatekeeper or a few Edicts (if you run them). The deck runs Bitterblossom, so you can always sacrifice one of your tokens. It also helps off Bob if you're going to die.

    It's not like every time Innocent Blood was ever cast that you absolutely had to have Abyssal Persecutor to make it worthwhile. Also, the math to support needing seventeen black sources was more of an issue with multiple Persecutors in the deck. You can get away with fifteen or sixteen without him in your list.

    Gate to Phyrexia pulls serious weight out of the board, as well. Being able to off Chalices and other troublesome artifacts with a Bitterblossom on board is just cruel.
    Hi Mike.

    The only problem with innocent blood is it is sorcery speed. People with sneak show and reanimator would be able to get off the combo and kill you before your turn.

    Aside from the gate, did you ever make changes to that deck Bargain welder. I really like that deck, and with DRS gone, it may be viable.

  9. #1989

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    That's not always the case, though. Black-Red Reanimator doesn't have counterspells to back up their threats, so that actually makes your removal off the top much better. Sure, with Sneak Attack you'd need to Edict them, but that's why you run Needles in the board and force them to go in on Show and Tell. Innocent Blood in that regard can be better, because then you don't have to use two mana for one spell when you can force them to discard protection first and then pave the way for Innocent Blood. (Yeah, they can pay seven life in response, but really - it's your best shot against faster tempo decks and turn-one Lackeys/Mother of Runes.)

    (Nope, haven't looked at that in a while. I think graveyard decks may get a wake-up call, because people aren't stupid and will be packing hate to quell those decks in the early shifting of the format now that DRS is gone.)

  10. #1990

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    If you let reanimator get griselbrand out of the the yard, game's over. It doesn't matter if you have removal, there will be 2-3 more creatures to kill pretty soon. That's why I like dark rit to power through the early game.

    Faerie is pretty good to stop that... but in any fair game it's near unplayable. I don't understand why you'd want to play 4 of it in the mainboard. It also makes bob hurt more for absolutely no reason.

  11. #1991

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Some people might be interested to try this new card:



    It's like a weaker Kcommand for people who don't want to run red but it can also sac Persy if needed.

  12. #1992

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Headed to a big tournament this weekend, this is the list I'm taking:

    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Kitesail Freebooter

    2 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    2 Ashiok, Dream Render

    4 Fatal Push
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize

    3 Bitterblossom

    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Lashwrithe

    9 Swamp
    2 Bayou
    2 Urborg
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    Side:
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Choke
    3 Assassin's Trophy
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    2 Marsh Casualties
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Will let you know how it goes

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  13. #1993

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilpurplemonkey View Post
    Headed to a big tournament this weekend, this is the list I'm taking:

    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Kitesail Freebooter

    2 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    2 Ashiok, Dream Render

    4 Fatal Push
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize

    3 Bitterblossom

    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Lashwrithe

    9 Swamp
    2 Bayou
    2 Urborg
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    Side:
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Choke
    3 Assassin's Trophy
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    2 Marsh Casualties
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Will let you know how it goes

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    Thoughts:

    1. I would cut the Kitesails and replace them with Gifted Aetherborn. Jitte is still in the deck for some life gain, but between four Dark Confidant, four Thoughtseize, three Bitterblossom and one Deluge you are really gambling with your life total. Four Hymns and two Lilianas are more than enough to tag an opponent's hand, and you certainly don't want to flood on discard spells when you need action. If you value Thoughtseize that much, I'd absolutely play Aetherborn.

    2. Aetherborn trades with Delver, which is important. It also kills potent threats on defense.

    3. I would cut the Stronghold and play a third Bayou. If you get cut off your only two green sources that can be a big problem if you bring it hate spells. Smart opponents will see this and attack your resources. Stronghold gives you some late-game redundancy, but I still would value the third Bayou over the Stronghold. It may also matter marginally, but Stronghold is a fifth colorless resource in the deck, which may cause problems with opening hands and casting triple black for Gatekeeper. I get Urborg is there, but you can't always depend on that.

    4. Be careful on how you play Urborg. Turbo Depths is a very real deck right now and playing it can open the door to fast, unexpected plays from an opponent.

  14. #1994

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thoughts:

    1. I would cut the Kitesails and replace them with Gifted Aetherborn. Jitte is still in the deck for some life gain, but between four Dark Confidant, four Thoughtseize, three Bitterblossom and one Deluge you are really gambling with your life total. Four Hymns and two Lilianas are more than enough to tag an opponent's hand, and you certainly don't want to flood on discard spells when you need action. If you value Thoughtseize that much, I'd absolutely play Aetherborn.

    2. Aetherborn trades with Delver, which is important. It also kills potent threats on defense.

    3. I would cut the Stronghold and play a third Bayou. If you get cut off your only two green sources that can be a big problem if you bring it hate spells. Smart opponents will see this and attack your resources. Stronghold gives you some late-game redundancy, but I still would value the third Bayou over the Stronghold. It may also matter marginally, but Stronghold is a fifth colorless resource in the deck, which may cause problems with opening hands and casting triple black for Gatekeeper. I get Urborg is there, but you can't always depend on that.

    4. Be careful on how you play Urborg. Turbo Depths is a very real deck right now and playing it can open the door to fast, unexpected plays from an opponent.
    The aetherborns we're actually the most recent cut, dropping 4 of them for an extra copy of several other cards. In testing the past couple weeks the life gain was incidental, especially since if you actually need the aetherborn it has to sit as a blocker often times. The other big thing is the aetherborn doesn't block many relevant creatures right now. Any of these creatures except bob trades with an unflipped delver in my favor and aetherborn doesn't block a flipped delver anyway. It really shines in the eldrazi matchup or against a tarmogoyf deck, but I'm not expecting a huge number of either of those right now, although new Ugin might bring eldrazi back in a big way.

    The extra bayou is worth considering, I like the Stronghold though, just because this build functions a lot more like a death and taxes style creature control deck rather than an aggro deck, so late game redundancy is more important than curving out.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

  15. #1995

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilpurplemonkey View Post
    The aetherborns we're actually the most recent cut, dropping 4 of them for an extra copy of several other cards. In testing the past couple weeks the life gain was incidental, especially since if you actually need the aetherborn it has to sit as a blocker often times.
    I'm not sure why; in a larger sample of games, the amount of life lost will eventually catch up to you. The extra life is absolutely important against decks like UR Delver, Burn, aggro decks and to a lesser extent, Marit Lage decks so you can crawl above twenty if it connects. You wouldn't need to sit back with it unless your life total was already compromised, which is more likely given the amount of life loss that exists here.

    The other big thing is the aetherborn doesn't block many relevant creatures right now. Any of these creatures except bob trades with an unflipped delver in my favor and aetherborn doesn't block a flipped delver anyway. It really shines in the eldrazi matchup or against a tarmogoyf deck, but I'm not expecting a huge number of either of those right now, although new Ugin might bring eldrazi back in a big way.
    Not sure I follow here, either. It's a removal spell built into a creature, and a means to stretch the game out. Sometimes getting ahead is the most important part of the deck's strategy; that's why I always had Vampire Nighthawk in the list because it was incredible at the time. Stretching your life total extends your ability to win games that are attrition-based in crack-back wars or games where Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom help you gain an advantage through life lost. You really can't solely rely on two cards (Jitte) to do that for you.

    By mitigating that drawback, the opportunity to get ahead is there. Without them, it becomes too much over time.

    The extra bayou is worth considering, I like the Stronghold though, just because this build functions a lot more like a death and taxes style creature control deck rather than an aggro deck, so late game redundancy is more important than curving out.
    This archetype in general has always really functioned as a "creature-control" deck. I'm not quite certain how that factors into the ability to cast spells with colorless or black mana, or how having a singleton Stronghold (which is fine, honestly) late game is just better overall than having correct mana early or non-reliance on Urborg, where Wasteland can blow you out.

  16. #1996

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Having a really good time in Legacy right now. I managed to get monthly legacy at my LGS so I built some decks. I always liked the Gate. When Regisaur was spoiled I wanted to try it, and I had a load of Unearth laying around from MM boxes, so I threw it together. Might not all be the convention but it is a blast to play.

    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Vampire Nighthawk
    3 Rotting Regisaur
    2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Bitterblossom
    3 Unearth
    2 Collective Brutality
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    17 Snow Covered Swamp
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard (Still a mess)

    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Gate to Phyrexia
    1 Pox
    1 Contagion
    2 Dystopia
    3 Plague Engineer
    2 Dead of Winter

    Far from optimal but it gets some wins and big blowouts with Dark Rit into Regisaur.I roll the dice a bit. Tried Aetherborns like the flying for evasion from Nighthawk. Ran Sinkholes, didn't play right. Not too interested into falling over the Pox cliff since Wreen and Six really hurts the hard LD strategies. Dystopia over Dread of Night. I die occasionally to my own Bobs and Blossoms but whatever. I know fetches will be great with Fatal Push, I just didn't pick up any more recently. Still loads of tuning to do.
    Last edited by studderingdave; 08-28-2019 at 11:31 PM.

  17. #1997
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Necro here...

    Debating a list like this to start testing. I want Cabal Therapist to be good, but (still skeptical) and I also want to dust off my Sinkholes. I think Bloodghast + Bitterblossom should feed Therapist, breaking open the grindier matchups like Pile/Miracles, while Sinkhole should be really brutal against efficient decks like Delver variants. Having this much hand disruption should mean the combo decks should be decent matchups, and the sacrifice effects are good against Depths/Lands/Reanimator.

    4x Bloodghast
    4x Cabal Therapist
    3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
    2x Plague Engineer
    2x Abyssal Persecutor

    4x Thoughtseize
    3x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Collective Brutality
    3x Fatal Push
    2x Diabolic Edict
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    3x Bitterblossom
    4x Sinkhole
    1x Umezawa’s Jitte
    1x Buried Alive
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4x Wasteland
    9x Swamp
    1x Castle Locthwain

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Nihil Spellbomb
    2x Toxic Deluge
    3x Dark Confidant
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Crucible of Worlds
    3x Pithing Needle


    Sideboard is just a straight-up guess. Hoping to get some feedback on this mess...
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    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  18. #1998

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I may be in the minority here, but Sinkhole in a world of Daze and Crop Rotation doesn't seem very good.

  19. #1999
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I think the discard should clear the way for Sinkhole, but again, it's just a list for testing. I could certainly see it becoming something else.

    I have to consciously stop myself from jamming 4x Dark Ritual + 4x Hypnotic Specter. The fun factor is so big, and nostalgic, but it's a recipe for getting blown out.
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