Hello all, long time reader, first post. I've mainly played Maverick and the Gate in the past.
I'd like to poll the community and Hollywood re: the Gate's current viability. There is evidence that mono-black midrange is still capable of placing well in today's meta.
1. Posters in this thread have had some success with changes like the inclusion of phyrexian obliterator.
2. The deck in it's more traditional form with abyssal persecutor recently placed well (2/42) http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13708&iddeck=100713
3. A different version of mono-black (devotion based) made day 2 at GP DC http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comme...no_b_devotion/
Some of my observations:
1. I tend to prefer persecutor over obliterator, as the 6/6 power/toughness allows for a 3 turn clock after the opponent has used 2 fetch-lands, the flying can block an opposing tombstalker, and the 2BB casting cost allows the use of wasteland.
2. Debate re: deathrite shaman - this card is certainly a powerhouse but conflicts with innocent blood which helps keep the board clear as we build up our resources. Are the benefits of this card enough to warrant reworking the deck? Can we bring in enough anti-graveyard cards from the sideboard if we don't run this? In this deck I tend to prefer innocent blood.
3. Bitterblossom - Is this too slow currently? A flying creature each turn is certainly powerful, but wondering if we can afford to wait while it builds. On turn two should we be playing removal, discard, or a confidant instead?
4. Liliana of the veil - we already run a lot of discard and sacrifice effects with gatekeeper and innocent blood, however it is nice to be able to pitch extra discard spells late game to +1 her loyalty. Run 1, 2, 3? I prefer to run 2.
5. What are thoughts on other lands other than swamp and wasteland? I like the rock-solid manabase, but I think something like a one-of phyrexian tower as a sacrifice effect for persecutor and extra mana after you've played a gatekeeper for example, to help playing threats you are drawing with confidant.
6. Was the devotion deck at GP DC a fluke? 5 mana for a gray merchant is a lot of mana, but a 16-20 point life swing is no joke.
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughtful posts on this thread - I've learned a lot from reading this. Hollywood you had mentioned earlier that you'd be re-visiting the deck - I'm sure there are many readers who are interested in your thoughts on it in today's meta! Thanks again.
I think mono-black is perfectly suited for today's meta. I was revisiting it for a little while, but kind of got sidetracked. When you look at some of the most prolific decks in the format right now, you've got to be looking at decks like Patriot, Elves, D&T, etc. The fact is, this deck runs an abundance of removal and has the ability to control the board state fairly well in a progressive manner. I'm actually surprised it isn't seeing as much play as it should be.
Innocent Blood, Toxic Deluge, etc. These cards are excellent in Legacy right now. Just look at this forum and all the level of activity on what decks are hot. The Gate has good game against a lot of them, except maybe for Miracles. Even then, there are options to beat that deck.
pack the sideboard with 4 pithing needles, 4 null rods, 4 bitterblossomsOriginally Posted by Michael Keller
Has anyone tried desecration demon in this deck? Or is abyssal persecutor just hands down better?
The lack of a need to remove him is an advantage over persecutor, but the lack of trample, and vulnerability to be tapped down by a flashed in snapcaster, clique, etc makes me think it is not as powerful of a threat. I think for a 4-mana investment the ability to have the opponent tap it down is not optimal.
So with regards to the miracles matchup, null rod could certainly help against top, but has anyone considered proactive sideboard answers to their threats? Sadistic sacrament exiles 3 cards from their library for 3 mana (you could take both entreat the angels and one jace, or alternatively all the jaces, for example). A pithing needle on Jace and a few null rods to stop top into entreat the angels may be better, but just an idea. Hero's downfall, while it is more expensive than our other removal (like victim of night) could answer Jace and also be used for persecutor if necessary. Hollywood, first thanks for the reply, and second what are your thoughts on sideboard now?
I'm entertaining a return to this deck for the big tournament in a few weeks. The deck has do many enticing matchups right now that it's hard not to at least consider it.
Some thoughts:
1. I wonder if bitterblossom would fit better in the side to be brought in against the slower matchups. Turn one should be hand disruption or innocent blood to clear a delver or shaman, and then turn 2 should follow up the pressure with confidant or hymn. I'm not sure if a turn 2 blossom is enough against some of the faster decks in the format.
2. Sweepers - we have access to toxic deluge, the upgraded infest (drown in sorrow, with scry attached), and one I have thought about is marsh casualties - this is a one sided -1/-1 effect for 2 mana, which late game can become a one sided -2/-2 effect. Not sure if this is worth it, but maybe in the side for elves, d&t, true name.deck?
3. Card advantage - the founding principle of this deck - We run confidant, and there has been some debate about the optimal discard spell formula. I think hymn as a 4 of is too good to pass up. Therapy as a free flashback and uncountable way to sac persecutor is fantastic. I wonder if running gitaxian probe to help filter through our deck and help power up therapy is worth it. If we move blossom to the side we may be able to afford the life loss.
4. Wasteland / land destruction - I wonder about how many is correct. Decks like RUG run stifle to back up Wasteland. Maverick uses KotR to chain wastelands and backs it up with Thalia. Most decks operate on a few mana just fine and we are trying to get to 4 to finish the game with persecutor. I guess hymn can sometimes get some lands but I'm not sure if that's enough. If we reconsider running wastelands (or number of wastelands) we could think about phyrexian tower, or even running obliterator.
5. Deathmark (an old inclusion, look to the beginning of this primer) seems good right now with all the elves and d&t, and shaman/tarmogoyf
6. Liliana of the veil is a great way to use late game discard spells and could reduce the number of gatekeepers needed.
7. Deathrite shaman is very powerful. If conflicts with turn one innocent blood, but it's ability to remove graveyard threats and drain the opponent each turn is pretty phenomenal.
What do you guys think? Let's put together an updated list.
I sat down and did some hard research on the overall gist of the current meta, and here's why:
You have to understand that this deck thrived during a period where decks like Survival and early Maverick/New Horizons-based strategies existed. Death and Taxes was a thing [albeit early in its inception]. The fact of the matter is Legacy has changed quite a bit since 2010, but there is also a large aspect that has remained the same. Tarmogoyfs are still popular and cleaning up games in RUG, BUG and other similar strategies. Deathrite Shaman is a mainstay in a huge portion of competitive decks, and True-Name Nemesis is feared as being stupidly overpowered for what it does. Stoneforge Mystic is everywhere to be found, and Delver of Secrets appears to be the current order of the day.
The Gate thrived on destroying strategies that most of these decks deploy, in that they're light on threats because those threats are powerful enough to play and protect with cheap counter-magic. That never really mattered before, because The Gate was saturated with an excellent balance of removal and threats, some built into the same card. I honestly feel that the deck could seriously thrive in an unprepared meta, much like the one I expect to see this weekend at what could be one of the East Coast's biggest Legacy tournaments in years.
The cards that I can see making their return in The Gate in some capacity would be as follows:
Vampire Nighthawk
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Dark Confidant
Innocent Blood
Deathmark
Duress
Hymn to Tourach
Umezawa's Jitte
Bitterblossom
I'm not certain about some of other oldies like Abyssal Persecutor, but Phyrexian Obliterator is such a powerhouse that nothing would realistically stand in its way.
Liliana deserves consideration, as well. Sadistic Sacrament also seems really good if it lands. It's multifaceted, and against decks like 12-Post, stripping them of their atypical three-Eldrazi configuration can be crippling. I like the card against decks where it would truly be crushing.
I think in today's meta game, cards such as Marsh Casualties and Disfigure are worth strong consideration.
I would actually trim a Wasteland at this point and roll with eighteen Swamps. I never cared much before, but Gatekeeper of Malakir can become incredibly relevant and we really want that kicker. Wasteland can be an oddball at certain times, inherently forcing you to activate it sooner than later. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when you have three lands and find that one of them is a Wasteland and you were wishing it was a third Swamp, that can be a bit awkward.
Although in the aforementioned list, there are only three Gatekeepers, so that does help alleviate that problem a bit.
I also like Pithing Needle as opposed to Revoker out of the board. No one is going to be bringing in artifact removal against this deck post-board, but spot removal for creatures is still omnipresent. Pithing Needle turn one on Sensei's Divining Top against Miracles is key, and doesn't eat it to Swords to Plowshares or a Terminus off the top. Hell, even Snapcaster Mage can act on their part as spot removal. It's rather frail to be honest, and I like a turn-one Needle against Sneak and Show that much better as opposed to a turn-two Revoker eating Daze.
Force of Will on a Needle also just feels so good when it happens, I don't know why. Maybe because it's cheap to cast and is really only in there to augment the discard in fighting troublesome permanents after they hit play - if discard doesn't nab it first.
Inquisition does not hit Jace, Sneak Attack, Natural Order or anything else that costs more than three. I don't like that, and want free reign as to what I'm discarding from an opponent's hand. I've already addressed how I feel about Thoughtseize: the deck has plenty of removal as it is and I don't like inadvertently discarding creatures against Reanimator post-Brainstorm. I've had this happen to me more than once in the past.
One-ofs out of the board are not really great in a deck like this with little to no library manipulation or minimal draw [with Bob]. I think streamlining the board to address the deck's most difficult matchups at higher quantities seems like a better idea and adds to the likelihood you'll be opening with countermeasures to fight troublesome strategies.
I agree with bakofried — I would not want to go into delver.format with only 3 innocent bloods as t1 removal. It makes it so easy to tempo you out if you lose the die roll. I think a couple disfigures instead of point discard would be better in the current meta, especially if we're not looking to resolve early threats ourselves. At least have them available for postboard on the draw.
Innocent Blood is amazing. I wouldn't even consider running less than four in this deck. A one-mana removal spell that takes out anything - including True-Name Nemesis and Emrakul - seems exceptionally good. Especially when you run Persecutor.
I like how Pithing Needle, Innocent Blood, Liliana and Blossom don't really step on eachother's toes early on. All pretty solid against Mother of Runes, too.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
I 100% agree. I do run 4x Innocent Blood. I copy pasted a list I had without my deck on hand, now that I do, the list is fully updated in this post. I tried to help the discussion and even argued when I didn't even notice my list was the wrong one, shame on me. Anyway, some previous points still stand, while others might be outdated or plain wrong. Here is the final list I have:
THE GATE (real version)
Lands (21)
17x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Creatures (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Faerie Macabre
Artifacts (2)
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
Enchantments (3)
3x Bitterblossom
Sorceries (15)
4x Innocent Blood
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Perish
1x Dystopia
3x Extirpate
1x Gate to Phyrexia
2x Contamination
1x Engineered Plague
1x Grafdigger's Cage
Interesting, not bad.
If I had to nitpick, the only 2 things I don't understand:
1) The 1x Jitte
2) The 4x Hymn
It makes sense when I see "1x" equipment 'cause usually most decks will run Stone Forge Mystic, E. Tutor or something like that, but seeing just 1 almost makes me wonder what's the point. Since the deck is more just about consistency, wouldn't you wanna' at least have like 2-3 to ensure you draw it?
It seemed like 11 discard is a little much, I love Hymn, but when you're cutting back key cards like Gatekeeper, Cabal and Jitte's I'd worry about losing board position over too much discard. I wonder if it'd be more of a SB vs combo?
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
1) Having that small inconsistency usually trick people enough so I can actually play and keep a Jitte (or that SoLaS) on. Either will they blind Cabal Therapy for it, try a discard for it, or wait for it with a Decay or something. It's a small but very important inconsistency because opponents, since they're more used to Jitte than your other threats, will often consider it as priority #1. I then can play other spells safely. I started with 2, went down to 1 within a few weeks, and haven't looked back since then. Was about 3 years ago. I however understand people playing 3 equipments, I just don't feel the need to.
2) I want to cast an Hymn turn 2, always. I want to hit lands and cripple my opponents while I build card advantage. Hymn is the best at it. I could get more threat resolutions cards, but at this point I would rather be preventive than reactive. I consider Hymn as one of the most powerful card in the deck, and at the very worst, if your opponent has no cards in hand, you can discard it to Liliana safely.
This is what I've been running.
Lands 21
18 Swamp
3 Wasteland
Creatures 15
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
Instants 4
4 Victim of Night
Sorceries 13
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
Other 7
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom
When I compare yours to mine, LDX, I have to wonder why you're running zero instant speed removal or targeted removal, the main deck Faerie Macabre's (feels like a sideboard card at best and worse than a lot of the graveyard hate we can run), the 4x Duress (I like Duress but it's always felt like a sideboard card in legacy when you can run thoughtseize or inquisition as generalist cards) and I feel like 4 Wastelands is a bit too many in this deck if you want to be hitting 2 B mana turn 2 and 3 B's turn 3 consistently.
I'll check your input on the lands, I might indeed remove a Wasteland for an additional Swamp. Testing will tell.
I'll quote the opening post regarding Faerie Macabre.
To that, I'll also add that it can be freely discarded with Liliana if needs to be. The card has won me many games just by luck, and I don't think I've ever lost because I needed to draw something and got the Faerie instead.''People are starting to see why this is such a good creature to run, even in their main builds. It comes out of nowhere and is absolutely ridiculous against decks predicated on a more intentional use of the graveyard. One of the main reasons for its inclusion in the main build has to do with its uncounterable ability and added bonus of being a body to equip and attack with. It completely stuns the unknowing and hits so many decks unknowingly right off the bat so very hard that they simply cannot recover in time. At worst, he's a 2/2 flyer for three mana. Highly abusable and underused.''
Now, regarding Duress, you said it yourself: Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are more generalists, but they also have drawbacks. Two things:
1) I don't feel like the deck need that much generality, at least, not at the price we get this generality. I feel like I got plenty of tools, again, specialized tools, to take care of what Duress isn't able to take care of.
2) The prices are way too high. I often won game with clutch life where Thoughtseize would've killed me. Inquisition of Kozilek, while not bad, doesn't take care of Jace which is probably one of our biggest problem.
And finally, for the spot/instant removal. This is probably my biggest lackluster, but so far it hasn't been a real threat. By the time I would have needed one, I usually had removed one of their threats and placed one of mine, so being in the driver seat, I would get plenty of time to find an answer. In the worst case scenario, I always had at least one Bitterblossom in play blocking what I couldn't remove. I have a friend playing his own version of The Gate in which he has a few Diabolict Edict and I think 2 more instant removals, but he hasn't been able to convince me yet. In short, it's a weakness I'm aware of, but a weakness that hasn't evolved into a problem yet. I mean, Victim of the Night seems ok, but I would much prefer hit a good Hymn to Tourach turn 2 than wait for my opponent to play a spell and kill its creature by the end of his turn. Not even talking about that extra card we get off.
How is 2x Liliana working for you? It's also a big difference between my deck and my friend's, and so far, I've always won the Liliana race we've been in that lead one of us to victory. Of course mirror match my be ''special'', but I wouldn't trade a Liliana for anything else. Have you tried SoLaS? Being able to bring back Gatekeeper and Nighthawk makes a world of differences, and the protection from Swords to Plowshares really shines in today's meta.
I'll be honest, I feel like a lot of this is going to be meta calls. My problem with Faerie Macabre is that I think I'd feel bad whenever I cast it as a creature and I don't feel like the effect is powerful enough for me to use it to shrink Tarmogoyf very often. It might be worth testing the card out a bit since it is a powerful effect but I'm not sure I like it main board.
As for Duress vs Thoughtseize vs Inquisition, a lot of that is going to be a meta call. If you are really afraid of Jace then it might make sense to run some number of Heroe's Downfall's since that gets you targeted removal against creature decks and it'll also take care of planeswalkers.
Liliana's a good card and I could be convinced to run more but I don't really want to see multiples very often and she feels best after I've gone past the phase where my spot discard is good so I don't think I want more than two of her. Sword of Light and Shadow is good but I feel like I want to get a Jitte more.
Tarmogoyf was not the reason Faerie Macabre was played in the main. In fact, Tarmogoyf as a threat against The Gate is laughable; the deck is loaded with removal. The reason it was played was to shore up the Reanimator matchup back in 2010 right when Mystical Tutor got the axe. Reanimator as a strategy is powerful still, but now you're looking at strategies with Punishing Fire where that can be a pain in the ass. Dredge has also come a long way in four years.
I'm simply saying you don't have to run it main if you don't want to. But its utility should not be undersold: there are extremely powerful strategies that use the graveyard in Legacy, so having that safety net can be huge. And, once again [at worst], it's a reasonable flying body that carries Jitte.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote