What does everyone think about fetches? I had several bad matches when I was flooded by lands instead of threats.
And what about singleton Volrath's Stronghold?
The original build ran 16 Swamps and 4 Wasteland. What is your mana base?Originally Posted by Osmin
<Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq
fetches just put you one stop closer to eva green. the reasons for running a mono black list are short and not very compelling other than being rogue and a fraction of the cost of eva green.
we dont care about opposing wastelands (i actually really like that aspect of this deck) but other decks usually dont care that much because they are fetching
we dont care about stifle.
we dont need dark ritual. we can run 20-21 lands but run the risk of drawing into them later (this is actually why im running 2 tops in my deck now)
i
@Kangaxx: Yeah, cause running dreadnought in a deck without any counterprotection is "tech". Dreadnought dies to almost every removal spell ever invented and only survives in Dreadstill because of the protection.
@imanujakku: While Hymn is amazing, this deck has plenty of other methods of generating card advantage that can win the game without it. I've ripped through standstills without Hymn and still managed to demolish my opponents resources because of the efficiency of my threats. I don't disagree that Hymn should be run, I just don't see that it's the key card in the deck.
@Osmin: Fetches are bad because they give you no advantage and several disadvantages in this deck. One disadvantage would be life loss, which isn't always that huge but coupled with Bitterblossom and Confidant can be problematic. Another would be that you don't want to thin the deck out. You run a low number of swamps as is and you need to hit at least double black to maintain efficiency and thinning your deck would make you more likely to hit wastelands or non-land cards when you're trying to hit swamps. Volrath's Stronghold is entirely unneccessary as the deck generates enough card advantage to almost guarantee you never run out of threats.
@Deathmark: This card is ENTIRELY meta dependant. Here in Rochester there's a very low number of people who actually own sets of Goyf's so I cut the card before the first tourney I played it. Were I to play in a larger tournament I might consider running at least 2 Deathmark maindecked as I would anticipate more Zoo/Goyf flavored decks. If you don't see Goyf's just run Smother or Doom Blade or something, no big deal.
Ok. Prime examples of the most heavily played removal cards in Legacy.
Swords to Plowshares:
Does this effect Dreadnought: Yes.
Does this effect Persecutor: Yes.
What's the difference? Dreadnought gains me 12 life opposed to 6. Is less of a tempo hit, since I'm paying 1 mana opposed to 4. Is persecutor superior in this scenario? No.
Path to Exile:
Effects Dreadnought: Yes.
Effects Persecutor: Yes.
What's the difference? Sui Mask can take advantage of the mana gained off of a PtE alot more than The Gate. There's more of an array of bombs that I would be able to draw rather than useless discard as a topdeck, opposed to more creatures or an E. Tutor. The Gate's creatures are significantly smaller making them bad topdecks, I run less discard decreasing the chances of getting bad topdecks, I run more tutors also decreasing these chances further. Sui Mask is also a very mana curve dependant deck and elevating these advantages is more dangerous to my opponent than it normally would be.
Smother:
Effects Dreadnought: Yes.
Effects Persecutor: No.
What's the difference? Dreadnought is effected yes but suffers less of a tempo loss compared to things like even tarmogoyf. Have people stopped playing Goyf becuase of Smother. No. Do people consider tarmogoyf a more solid card than Abyssal Persecutor? Yes. Becuase Goyf is Goyf and Abyssal Persecutor is a 4 mana creature card who comes into play alot less quickly. Does anyone even play Smother? To a certain extent but not nearly as prevalent as the first two removal spells I have mentioned that effect both creatures with differing conclusional outcomes.
I feel that, yes, there are more removal spells that deal with Dreadnought alot easier, but the most prevalent removal spells effect both yet Dreadnought always comes out to be a superior choice since the potential tempo loss is less significant than Persecutor's. Any way you look at it a 12/12 for 1 on the first turn is more dangerous especially on a first turn basis, than a second turn 6/6 who is uneffected by Smother and Krosan Grip. Also having the option of playing Thoughtseize and Hymn on the first turn makes up for the lack of reactive protection and replaced with a proactive approach that can easily become succeeded by the combo in the following turns where you suspect that removal could be relevent given that particular situation. Any way you cut it, a 12/12 for 1 mana is always going to have it's advantages over a 6/6 for 4. That's like saying Goyf is a bad card since people could always cast a Vendetta on it when his opponent has run out of countermagic or his Daze is totally useless becuase of a Dark Ritual and he's tapped out with no FoW. And the coolest thing about Mask + Dreadnought, is after resolving a Mask and it comes into play, all Dreadnoughts turn into 1 cc creatures with no drawbacks. And unlike Stifle, Illusionary Mask is a constant effect that can be put into use as opposed to needing additional Stifles if the first Dreadnought doesn't resolve.
Last edited by Kangaxx; 07-07-2010 at 11:43 PM.
What i wonder is, why would you need a turn 1 Dreadnought? I get the point of it beeing a nice tactic, but this Deck is focused on disrupting the enemy for the first 2-3 Turns, THEN dropping something.
And if u compare those 2 guys, think of the following pls:
Nought is FIXED on having a Mask. If u dont have a Mask, thats no Nought for you then. If your Mask gets Countered or destroyed before you can put your ship in the haven, u got Mr.DeadCard on your hand (the nought).
Looking at Persecutor. You dont need extra cards for him, yet. You just put him out, and if your opp cant handle him, he swings him down to the rather negative areas of Life. Then what? He canīt destroy it, if he does, he looses. So he wants to keep him alive, but hey, keeping an enemyīs creature alive - kind of a tough job. Then thinking again, you will most likely have a Cabal Therapy in your grave or an innocent Blood or Gatekeeper in your hand (or whatever else - this deck is full of solutions for this). You might realize, that Nought relies on exactly 2 cards, which on their own do nothing (y that can be a downside of combo). TheGate uses the synergy of the Persecutor with cards youīd wanna play even without the Persecutor. All can be played on their own - no dead hand in sight.
I can clearly see the aspect of the Nought having double the power, but hey, i dont want dead cards for it, no matter at what price ;) i wanna go consistent with TheGate. Consistency is a thing this deck has, which most MonoBlack Decks dont, and which makes this one stand out imo.
Okay first off, you completely neglected several very key points that were either left out on purpose or by accident. Either way, let me refresh you memory:
Qasali Pridemage
This card eats Phyrexian Dreadnought for breakfast. It is (as of this moment) one of the most heavily played creatures in the format. This is why you are seeing an adverse reaction to the number of people playing decks with the Stifle-Dreadnought combination. With this creature in just about every viable deck running green with a white splash, you can bet this creature will not stay alive to even survive the attack step. Unlike, however, Abyssal Persecutor - which does not eat it to any relegated artifact removal what so ever.
Krosan Grip
Probably the most heavily played sideboard cards in Legacy today. Does Abyssal Persecutor eat it to this? No, it doesn't. At the cost of two for one, none the less. You cannot make an argument for Dreadnought with the existence of this card in the format because, quite frankly, there is nothing you can do to stop it in the first place once it resolves.
Counter-Top
Extraordinarily bad. Because these days, you actually can counter the Dreadnought.
Basically what you are doing is taking one solid deck and watering it down with an extraordinarily fragile combo. In addition, you continue to revert back to Tarmogoyf as if that card actually matters against this deck. It doesn't. It is the absolute least of your worries. Your argument is that decks that dictate the tempo within the first several turns ultimately win you the game, and I'm sorry I just completely disagree with you. Just because you dump your hand turn one or two does not mean you will win the game; not in today's Legacy. You're also making a distinct comparison between an artifact-based combo and a flying, trampling creature. The only comparison here is that they would (in theory) be the primary win condition for the deck. One expends a much greater effort to resolve and stick than the other, and it just isn't worth the card-slots to worry.
This deck prides itself in being very evasive against typical hate cards like; Wasteland, Pridemage, Counterbalance, etc. Those cards don't have an outright advantage over this deck because it doesn't need tricks to avert problematic situations; simple solutions such as basic lands, odd-cost creatures, and cheap removal. Is a resolved Phyrexian Dreadnought problematic? Sure it is. But there are far more difficulties people face in trying to cheat it into play like resolving it or making it stick that it just isn't worth the effort (or card-space) in this particular circumstance.
I played Suicide Mask for a year and a half as it was once one of my favorite decks in "1.5". I can tell you from my experience with that deck is that what it lacks in consistency certainly doesn't make up for in tempo with all the removal in the format these six years later. It just isn't worth it. Abyssal Persecutor is a very potent offensive tool that isn't as situational and isn't as fragile as a two-card combination in that of Mask-Dreadnought.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 07-28-2010 at 10:12 PM.
Are you seriously trying to justify playing a 6/6 for four mana over a dreadnought? Regardless of removal and possible game situations a 12/12 for one mana is always going to have an edge over a four mana creature.
I also was not aware of Suicide Mask before my initial conception. Any links to this supposed pre-existing archetype would be appreciated.
Dreadnought needs two cards to make it work; you stop one, you have a dead card OR you get 2 for oned.
You ONLY need to worry about Persecutor when its at the point that you kill them anyway, and he is killed by cards that are helpful to you at any other point in time as well; meaning you don't have that dead card, or the two for one.
Which is easier to achieve - having one card now and one other card three turns later; or having both cards now?
Yes, I am justifying playing a creature that (believe it or not) doesn't require dropping a "hard-earned", 100% down-payment on a new house only to have it foreclosed five minutes later by the bank sitting across the street. Abyssal Persecutor is a low-cost, powerful creature that works very well within the framework of this deck. You are suggesting watering it down with an extremely situational, fragile combo that has even itself deteriorated since you are now able to counter the creature anyways.
That is just bad. You seem to be under this unequivocal impression that because a black Magic card costs four mana, you automatically assume you must play Dark Ritual otherwise it isn't worth the time. That method of thinking is the very opposite of the methodology used to create this deck in the first place. And since its inception, this variation of mono-black seems to be the preferred choice of strategy instead of the countless Suicide versions that insist on dumping their hands to trade consistency for a short, abrupt "tempo rush".
Abyssal Persecutor has great synergy with many cards in this deck, whether it's the added "trample" effect that carries over with an equipped Jitte to nab counters or its four casting-cost to avert Counterbalance triggers. With cards like Cabal Therapy to flashback for the win or a kicked Gatekeeper of Malikir to boot, Abyssal Gatekeeper puts your opponent on a legitimate clock that doesn't require praying on drawing two cards either to open or successively in order to work. Not to mention, adding that fragile combo would COMPLETELY change the mulligan strategy of this deck which is already hardly aggressive at all.
I must admit that I briefly read your Illusionary Mask deck you recently posted and it is predicated on a completely different strategic formula than The Gate operates on. And while I can appreciate the suggestion, it is just extraordinarily bad.
Just to confirm this. Deckcheck says about the most played SB Cards:
# Sideboard
# 7749 Krosan Grip
# 5868 Tormod's Crypt
# 3974 Relic of Progenitus
# 3253 Pithing Needle
# 2880 Blue Elemental Blast
# 2451 Extirpate
# 2328 Engineered Plague
# 2288 Hydroblast
# 2040 Red Elemental Blast
# 1745 Leyline of the Void
# 1726 Pyroblast
# 1519 Engineered Explosives
# 1379 Meddling Mage
# 1372 Gaddock Teeg
# 1333 Chalice of the Void
I really don't see why you always say 12/12 for one. You HAVE to play the Mask before the Dreadnought. Which makes it a 12/12 for 3 + 1 Card OR if you play it in 2 turns a 12/12 for 1 with a prepaid echo of 2.
/Edit Forget this: Ofcourse Mask makes your creatures uncounterable BUT Gatekeeper and Confidant don't get anything from that....
It doesn't.
{X}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on Variable Colorless. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it's turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
I've got a decklist I have been testing quite a bit, of late, and would like to get some feedback on it. I suppose it should fall under this thread, even though it is quite a bit different from many lists that have been posted (including my own.) Questions, comments, concerns, and cold-blooded hating are all welcome. Note that the list is post-M11:
Lands (22):
19 Swamp
3 Wasteland
Threats (21)
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nyxathid
3 Viscera Seer
1 Reassembling Skeleton
Enchantments (4):
4 Phyrexian Arena
Spells (10):
4 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Cabal Therapy
Artifacts (3):
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard is something along the lines of:
3-4 Yard Hate (I like Leylines, personally, but that may change, depending on what happens with Reanimator)
Perish
Gate to Phyrexia
Engineered Plague
O-Stone
1-2 Volrath's Stronghold (I'm considering this as some tech. vs. Zoo. Too early to say whether it's legit or not, as of yet.)
So, some general comments:
Basically, I wanted to up the aggro matchups, especially Zoo. Nyxathid, while not the best black creature ever printed (by a long shot) is nice in the match, as Zoo likes to dump a goodly chunk of their hand rather quickly. I wouldn't go higher than three, because I don't necessarily want to see it in the early game. I'm still not 100% sold on the fellow, but I am looking for something with a big enough ass to stay out of burn range. Tombstalker is nice, but I can't support more than two, since I don't want to add in fetches and/or Rituals. (I don't want to open up to Stifles, countermagic, and the like, but I still want to stay aggro-unfriendly.)
No Hymn. Tell me I'm the worst magic player ever. I don't care. It has consistently been too slow in testing to be a reliable threat to Zoo, even when they're on the draw.
21 threats. Threats are good. The M11 cards (Seer and Skeleton) are the newest additions I'm trying out. I chose skeleton over 'ghast because of the potential as a chump-blocker. Both play well with Seer, Therapy, etc. As for the Seer-Skeleton loop, I'm already feeling like it may be too slow and mana-intensive to be a large asset to the deck. Maybe I chose unwisely, and should have gone for 'ghast. Time and testing will tell. As for Viscera Seer, I like it, so far. A 1-drop critter is nice, and it makes a decent chump-blocker. Hell, it makes any creature a decent chump, when you get to Scry at the same time. Its ability has come in handy on several occasions, not the least of which involves turning evoked "maws into "Destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature. Scry 1"
That's it. I'd love to hear some constructive criticisms, and will tolerate general bashing, as well, if it helps you go poopoo better in the morning.
Seems terrible. Some things that bug me:
Only six discard effects to go with Nyxathid. Zoo can't be the only matchup in your area...
Viscera Seer when you already have four Arenas and Top is legal in the format(and just being terrible in general). Along with that, using Reassembling Skeleton when there's Bloodghast in the format and only one to match your three Seers. I read the rest of the post and see that your testing is helping you figure out your lapse in judgment.
Not running Dark Ritual when it can help power out Shriekmaw for card parity, Tombstalker, Gatekeeper, Persecutor, and Arena.
NO HYMN. I've played Zoo tons and it helps tremendously, even against Lynx Zoo. It has its bad moments but all discard does. Would also help to make Nyxathid relevant in more matchups.
On a more general note, I've been playing a mix between my BG deck(similar to Eva Green) and The Gate, running white; my motivation being Stoneforge into Grafted War-gear for Persecutor. I run the other good stuff with it like StoP, Vindicate, and Jitte. It has been doing well, so I came here to ask if anyone has tried Grafted War-gear? Good on Gatekeepers and Nighthawks and makes your Confidants big enough to kill Goyf.
I, too, was quick to write Seer off as crap, but I've been happier with the fellow than top for a few reasons. First off, he is a body. Chumping a Lynx or a Nacatal is nice, when I also get to scry. He also carries a Jitte (albeit usually on a suicide mission.) If Seer gets removed to make way for said attacker, I still get to scry, and that's one less removal spell in their hand. Obviously, he is a sac. outlet for Persecutor, but that much goes without saying. I feel like black has been a little short on 1-drop critters, what with combat damage no longer using the stack, and whatnot. I also want to keep my creature count as high as possible, because sometimes what I need vs. aggro is time to draw into (even more) removal, while I get myself set up. As for the redundancy of seer with Arena, in terms of card advantage, I'm fine with that.Viscera Seer when you already have four Arenas and Top is legal in the format(and just being terrible in general)
On a final note, I tested top in a previous build of the deck. I love top. However, I just wasn't able to exploit it adequately to justify running it, without hurting my own tempo/watering down the focus of the deck with synergistic cards (i.e. fetches) in the process.
Nyxathid has been horrible in the Goblins matchup (which I see in my area) and definitely comes out for that one. Eats it to ringleaders all day long. I've been trying him out because, vs. Zoo, Nighthawks (the creature with which I'd most strongly consider replacing Nyxathid) tend eat removal spells as fast as the opponent can spit them out. I'm kind of at a loss for a creature with a big enough ass to withstand a red removal spell, (like when I go to equip Jitte and they respond with a bolt of some kind) and still be cheap enough to cast to make it viable in the deck. Wall of Souls fits the criteria, except it can't apply direct aggro pressure. 'Ghast can't block. Reassembling skeleton is lackluster in this role. Necroskitter never does what he's supposed to do. Arrogant Bloodlord, surprisingly, failed to thrill me, making their little wimpy lynxes and moms and lackeys (oh, my) into effective chumps. I'm definitely not opposed to running Nighthawks, I just want to do so feeling like I've tested out all of my options.
I cut Rituals in favor of more threats and spells. For the same reasons that the "normal" build of The Gate does not run rituals, I do not either. Basically, while I'm fine with fast mana, I found I'm better off using those slots for threats of some form or another.Not running Dark Ritual when it can help power out Shriekmaw for card parity, Tombstalker, Gatekeeper, Persecutor, and Arena.
I stand by my call to cut Hymns. The tempo that Zoo gains off of connecting with a first turn Nacatl (or Steppe Lynx) is often enough to spell GG, even with the hurtin' that Hymn can put on. The reason that I posted this list in this thread, and not in any other thread is that, like the "normal" builds, the deck aims to stabilize via removal and fat creatures, which can out-chump theirs, then swing in for the kill when the clock is on my side.NO HYMN. I've played Zoo tons and it helps tremendously, even against Lynx Zoo. It has its bad moments but all discard does. Would also help to make Nyxathid relevant in more matchups.
One of the things I'm careful about, as I mess with this build, is to try not to screw up the Merfolk and New Horizons matchups, as I expect to continue seeing both for some time yet. For this reason, I do not want to drop below 12 "kill spells" (Shriekmaw, Gatekeeper, Innocent Blood) but I also want to maintain a high threat count. Shriekmaw and Tombstalker are both threatening, and Shriekmaw doubles as a removal spell, in the early game. Neither plays well with Bob, so I cut him in favor of Arena. (I still find myself boarding out Arenas vs. Zoo, in favor of more removal.) You make a good point with regards to Nyxathid - He's only decent vs. Zoo, and OK vs. New Horizons. Maybe I am overspecializing. I'll continue testing, and see how I feel after testing out some more of the more common matchups.
Regardless of our differences of opinion, thanks much for your comments. I will take them into consideration as I continue to test.
My mentioning Top wasn't so much to compare the two as much as to have you think about the slots those cards are taking up. Your Arenas do what these bad cards do. Very rarely will you be screwed for long stacks of lands or other bad topdecks with Arena. They could be used for much better cards, as more threats or redundancy in other areas.On a final note, I tested top in a previous build of the deck. I love top. However, I just wasn't able to exploit it adequately to justify running it, without hurting my own tempo/watering down the focus of the deck with synergistic cards (i.e. fetches) in the process.
Shades, Nighthawks, Hymns, more removal/discard. Lots of these would be better than Seer and a slightly better Drudge Skeletons. Chumping and kamikaze(ing?) with an equipment any creature can do, if you run better ones they may be able to deal good damage to a player, kill something, or even survive combat.
Yeah, I guess my decks run Hymns, in conjunction with other discard, to strip my opponent's hand of removal and/or bigger threats than Nacatl. I don't have this problem with either my Aggro-control Bg deck or my Bw The Gate.I've been trying him out because, vs. Zoo, Nighthawks tend eat removal spells as fast as the opponent can spit them out.
There are no matchups where Hymns are bad, none. Sometimes they do slightly worse than awesome and you can topdeck it at the wrong times, but turn two you're hard pressed to find a better drop. Even Tarmogoyf isn't as good.I stand by my call to cut Hymns. The tempo that Zoo gains off of connecting with a first turn Nacatl (or Steppe Lynx) is often enough to spell GG, even with the hurtin' that Hymn can put on.
Hymn can help screw their tempo too. Discarding their only two drop or some lands, or just discarding a Bolt or Path so they can't get rid of your Goyf/Nighthawk to be there as a wall or removal+life gain makes for a huge slowdown.
Yeah, my BG deck started as Eva Green and moved away from a tempo disruption deck because Rituals and Sinkholes weren't doing enough. I took those out for the same reasons, but when I put together the Bw deck I put Rituals in. My BG deck doesn't have any filtering/draw so I wouldn't recover well from the Rituals, especially multiples. I also didn't have anything special to drop turn one. But your deck and my Bw deck are similar in the opposite, they produce lots of card advantage and have Bob/Arena so Dark Rituals would do fine in these decks because we can afford the card disadvantage to get the amazing tempo boost.I cut Rituals in favor of more threats and spells. For the same reasons that the "normal" build of The Gate does not run rituals, I do not either. Basically, while I'm fine with fast mana, I found I'm better off using those slots for threats of some form or another.
Your deck especially could utilize it. You have:
Shriekmaw - I can't see you getting five lands very often, much less in five turns. This will help you make this more than just a sorcery speed Terror giving you a body that can evade with Jitte or take out Nacatl, all as early as turn three.
Persecutor - Same thing, I don't see four lands being consistent. And if one's a Wasteland there's a chance you'll want to use it for more than just one colorless.
Gatekeeper - Against Zoo turn one it's a huge help or just to get that third black.
Arena - amazing turn one where even against Zoo you can take advantage of the extra cards before Zoo can use the life loss against you.
Tombstalker - Rituals help, not necessary here but every bonus counts.
Here is what ive been running lately and i feel a little better with this set up against merfolk and zoo. goblins usually still rip me up game one.
Lands 21
13 swamps
4x Wasteland (not really sure about these without sinkhole)
4x Polluted Delta
Creeps: 18
2x Dark Confidant
3x Hand of Cruelty (lots of legacy decks lean on StP as their only removal and can trade with zoo and merfolk creatures)
4x Gatekeeper of Malikir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Tombstalker(no percy means some removal can be targeted and i dont have to worry about finding a sac effect when ahead)
2x Faerie Macabre (very narrow application and i think this should be in the board)
Spells: 16
4x innocent blood
2x smother
2x doomblade
4x Duress (should be thoughtseize but i dont own any yet)
2x Cabal Therapy(this could be inquisition or whatever you prefer)
4x Hymn to Tourach
Artifacts: 5
2x Sensei's Top
3x Jitte (its a lot but a lot of games with merfolk are who can get a jitte to stick.)
Side
4x Plague
4x Extirpate
4x Pithing needle
1x smother
2x Faerie Macabre
in an effort to change this decks overall top deck crappinessi removed bitterblossom. it could easily go back in place of 2 doomblades or smother but i dont like without some other synergy ie contamination. if the faerie token happened one turn earlier i would be much happier but the first faerie cannot even carry the jitte.
this deck probably need another finisher. perhaps an even split of percy and tombstalker.
Why would you only want to Play 2 Confidants ESPECIALLY when u have the Top in there!?
Also i dont get why u leave out the Percy. Percy is damn good, u play bloodīs and cabalīs anyway - i dont see the point of 3 Stalkers.
Then, 13 swamps is just WAY to less to be playing. Those 4 Deltaīs counted as Swamps gets it up to 17, but .... even 17 is too less imo. I play 19 Swamps (and 3 Wastes) and sometimes cant "kick" my Gatekeeper on Turn 3 !
Also, why would u remove Bitterblossom oO
Sure it takes a turn to set in, but hey, the Blossom gives u a Flying Man each turn.
Have u playtested this deck? Is this even working ?!
PS:
I like the Hand of Cruelty though, its kinda nice (but only in SB imo)
I never suggested you running the combo.
Stifle + Dreadnought is a two for one. Phyrexian Dreadnought + Illusionary Mask is NOT a two for one.
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