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Thread: [Deck] The Gate

  1. #41

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    To critics of Deathmark as being too narrow, I have a question: how different is it from Snuff Out or Spell Pierce? Both are considered top-class spells for what they do, but both are also extremely narrow as well.
    Lol, Spell Pierce and Snuff Out aren't anywhere close to as narrow as Deathmark. Deathmark is dead 60% more often.

  2. #42

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    It's pretty straight forward.

    Snuff out hits red creatures, blue creatures, green creatures, white creatures AND artifacts. There's very few decks in the format that it doens't effect. Deathmark only hits white and green. It can't do jack against merfolk, goblins, fairie stompy, workshop aggro, affinity, sligh and countless other decks.

    Spell Pierce hits all instants, sorcries, enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers. There's basically zero decks in the format that doesn't play one of the aforementioned card types. Deathmark only hits green and white creatures.

    Hence, Deathmark is a lot more narrow.

    Like I said, if you want midrange aggro control (basically a monoblack version of The Rock), I would play this...

    4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
    4 Abyssal Persecutor
    4 Tombstalker
    2 Bloodghast

    4 Smallpox
    3 Pox
    3 Sign in Blood/Phyrexian Arena

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Hymn To Tourach
    4 Sinkhole

    8 Swamp
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth
    3 Bojuka Bog
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Phyrexian Tower

    It's more disruptive and plays more aggressive creatures that put opponents on a tighter clock.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 03-17-2010 at 01:26 PM.

  3. #43

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    I think you're wrongly considering all of the hypothetical possibilities for Smother and Spell Pierce versus Deathmark rather than the much, much fewer actual possibilities that will arise in a game. Believe it or not, not every deck plays every card ever...

    And since you mentioned it, there are no planeswalkers @CMC=2.

    I'm going to assume you've never tested the deck with MD Deathmark...
    And I'm going to assume that you don't know what Spell Pierce actually is.

    You started your discussion with Snuff Out and Spell Pierce and saying they were dead more often than Deathmark. I'm just saying that's completely untrue.

    You're right, not every deck plays every card ever. That's precisely my point. You defend Deathmark saying that pretty much every deck plays Goyf. I'm just saying that isn't true. Just a quick glance reveals that the majority of the threads in the Established Forum are centered on decks that don't play Goyfs or any green or white creatures at all. Zero Deathmark targets.

    Yet all but a couple of them do play key cards that Spell Pierce, Snuff Out (and Smother) all can hit, even creatures like Mishra's Factory and Painter's Servant that are easy to neglect (and of course the obvious stuff like the various red, blue, or artifact based creature decks).

  4. #44

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    On the mana issue:

    The mana criticisms being leveled at this deck are very, very legitimate. Even though all the basics in the deck are likely to stick around/not be disrupted, the simple point is that lacking a draw engine beyond Dark Confidant, there just aren't enough of them.

    Lets take Abyssal Persecutor for example. You want to cast it on turn 4. That means you need to have drawn 4 lands by then. You have only a 42% chance of drawing four lands by turn four if you run 20 in your deck. But wait, you've got Confidant, right? Well, assuming he comes down turn 2, and lives to turn 4, you've still only got a 60% chance of having drawn a fourth land by that point. And this is of course assuming that you don't actually use any wastelands you may or may not have drawn.

    The numbers aren't much better for Vampire Nighthawk. With 20 lands, you've only got a 62% chance of having a third land by turn three. If you played Bob on turn 2 and he lived, that only goes up to 70%. Again, these numbers are far, far too low for consistent performance in tournament settings.

    If you want to run the curve in this deck, you need more lands, or more draw to help find lands. There's just no way around the math on that.

  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Work over the mana base: I still think you play too few lands and you also do not take enough profit out of the possibilities the format offers. Sure it is a good thing to be completely immune to Wasteland and Stifle, but usually the profit gained by playing nonbasics is higher than the price paid. Even with a few Nonbasics, your mana base should still be rock solid. I really see no reason to not...

    a) play the 4 Bojuka Bog to increase your mana base while still providing utility or

    b) splash White like every second deck does just because of Swords to Plowshares. I agree with you that my suggestion Smother is not better than Deathmark because of the mana cost, but Swords is just so much better than Deathmark because it can hit the Merfolk deck, the Goblin deck, Iona (!), Manlands, Dark Confidants, Ichorids creatures, Dragon Stompy / Faerie Stompy creatures and much more I did not list. Playing nondead removal changes these matchups sustainable because even if you can side DM out you still have to keep suboptimal cards in whereas with Swords plus SB cards you have a much better Removal package post board. I think the answer should be to splash because the odds to face nonwhite/nongreen creatures are imo higher than the odds to lose against Nonbasichate, especially thanks to the recently printed Marsh Flats. The W splash also offers you Vindicate which is a decent solution to many problem cards for Mono Black decks (Enchantments, Artifacts) and if they don't play such cards it is still Removal. It would also allow you to play Stoneforge Mystic who has synergy with Innocent Blood and Cabal Therapy.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    I think you're wrongly considering all of the hypothetical possibilities for Smother and Spell Pierce versus Deathmark rather than the much, much fewer actual possibilities that will arise in a game. Believe it or not, not every deck plays every card ever. In fact, the same cards keep coming up time and again. Yes, Smother (or Snuff Out since I made the mistake of referring to it when I meant Smother) and Spell Pierce hit everything within their respective guidelines. But let's consider:

    >50% of decks in the format play goyf and it's always a threat when it resolves. Deathmark is strictly superior here either because it's cheaper (Smother), not suicidal (Snuff Out) and doesn't require you to leave mana open (Spell Pierce). This means in at least 50% of cases, Deathmark is a superior choice.

    All of the matchups you mentioned with the exception of "countless other decks" (I'm sure you can count them and that number is < that the amount that run goyf) are already good matchups with the sole exception of stompy and then only if they land chalice @1, which will shut off 1/3 of the deck anyway. Smother and Snuff Out don't significantly help the matchup and Pierce would be hit just as hard.

    Zoo, CBtop, Bant decks (Survival, ProBant, etc.) are much harder matchups and they all run valid targets. In fact, they all run a lot of valid targets, not the least of which is the aforementioned goyf. Since these are the matchups Deathmark is geared toward anyway, it makes sense to include a strictly superior card.
    So I looked up the top X lists for the last few big tourneys listed on SCG and this is what I could find.

    At SCG Indy 3/14/10 of the top 16 Decks:
    10 Decks ran W/G creatures (1 deck had Elspeth so I counted that)
    7 Decks ran Tarmogoyf
    4 of the decks running Goyf had only Goyf as G/W creatures.
    2 of the 10 Decks were reanimator and I would assume that they would not get creatures that die to Deathmark.
    Thus of the top 16 of SCG Indy, you could expect to use Deathmark reliably in 7 matches but your only targets in 4 of those matches are Tarmogoyf.
    3 of the matches not running W/G were Merfolk x1, Goblins x1, MBC x1 in which we can safely say that any other removal spell would be better.
    Deathmark: 7/16
    Smother: 10/16.

    SCG Richmond 2/28/10 Top 16:
    7 Decks ran targets for Deathmark. (1 Merfolk deck ran Goyf)
    6 of those decks had multiple targets for deathmark.
    5 of the top 16 were not running W/G creatures in which another removal spell would have been better. All 5 were merfolk.
    Deathmark: 7/16 Decks
    Smother: 13/16 Decks

    GP Madrid 2/28/10 Top 8:
    5/8 Decks Ran W/G Creatures. 3x Zoo and 2x CounterTop
    The other 3 decks were Reanimator x1 and ANT x2.
    Smother would not be an improvement here.

    There were a total of 5 Reanimator decks in the top 16/16/8 of those tourney's in which Diabolic Edict may have been a better call than either Smother or Deathmark... Of course Iona is a game over to this deck no matter what removal you are running.

    So can we just agree that deathmark is probably a metagame call?

  7. #47

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I like some aspects of this, the OP's that is, list, and as I have been working on my own AP deck for a while, I did find some of the discussions on the various card options useful. It does become a bit tiring to hear the constant "this deck is awesome and all the card inclusions are perfect"-answers. There's a lot of "do this" but not a lot of "is it really worth doing it?" or even some openess towards changing the cards. I also think that going mono-black is a big mistake. I'll probably either go with White or with Red for a sort of updated Red Death list.
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  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    And I'm going to assume that you don't know what Spell Pierce actually is.

    You started your discussion with Snuff Out and Spell Pierce and saying they were dead more often than Deathmark. I'm just saying that's completely untrue.

    You're right, not every deck plays every card ever. That's precisely my point. You defend Deathmark saying that pretty much every deck plays Goyf. I'm just saying that isn't true. Just a quick glance reveals that the majority of the threads in the Established Forum are centered on decks that don't play Goyfs or any green or white creatures at all. Zero Deathmark targets.
    I'm pretty sure he's talking about Spell Snare the entire time, and is confusing it with Spell Pierce. Clearly the comparison between Deathmark and Pierce isn't really a valid one, but comparing it with Spell Snare is much more logical, as they are both very situational cards, but focus on being an extremely cheap and efficient counter to the current metagame.

    Spell Snare would see ZERO play if the current legacy format didn't revolve around the 2cc area, and as such, the same argument can be used for Deathmark, which seems like a good metagame counter to decks that are current filled with Goyfs, Knights, Nacatls, Steppe Lynx, Pridemages, Terravores, etc.

    He also never meant to talk about Snuff Out, thus his explanation of his Ninja Edit, which was to change the word to Smother, and talk about how smother is situational to a certain degree as well, yet still a viable removal card.

    I think we can all generally accept that Deathmark is situational and definitely a metagame call. It's stupid to disagree with that point. However, I think that in a well developed metagame, the vast majority of creatures being played in tier decks are going to be affected by Deathmark enough to warrant its use. It's a house against Zoo, Bant, Thresh decks, Aggro Loam, Survival Decks, and it's not completely dead against Ichorid if they ever return a big ass Troll. That's at least one use against basically every single deck in the DTB forum. For one mana.

    Moving on:

    I've been playing with the decklist from the opening post a decent amount on Magic Workstation (yes i know, not exactly the best testing, but i don't have Persecutors ) and I've noticed a few trends that I'm sure Hollywood knows about, but being that his opening post has no match-up analysis yet, It hasn't really been discussed.

    Counterbalance/Top:
    When this resolved against me, it wasn't instantly GG, as Persecutors and nighthawks still easily resolved, however it was slightly bothersome that all of the removal spells are 1cc and 2cc. Not to mention, the 1cc removal suite is all sorcery speed. There were actually multiple games that i would've won if deathmark was an instant and i was able to kill a Goyf in response to them flipping their top to counter the first removal spell.

    Goblins:
    This match-up seemed pretty even, even with the completely dead Deathmark in the main. It seemed like the match-up basically boiled down to: If he has an extremely broken fast start, he wins game 1 regardless. However, if I have a Jitte or Nighthawk, it's extremely difficult for them to deal with it and combined with 1-2 removal pieces it was enough to seal it. Bitterblossom was also amazing against them, as it essentially turned piledriver off completely. However, it definitely seems like a match-up that, if goblins was expected to be a big part of your metagame, sideboard slots would be necessary to make it favorable. Obvious option seems like E-Plague, but that seems too slow. It seemed like if i survived with a decent enough life total beyond turn 4, I would win the long game anyway. Other Suggestions?

    Bant:
    Wow, this match-up just wasn't even funny. This deck makes Bant decks it's bitch. Deathmark is the best removal spell ever against them, and hits 100% of their creatures, and you have, on average, 900 ways to deal with Progenitus. If Bant decks are big in your metagame, which is seeming to be what mine is turning into at least, this deck seems like a great choice against them. I'm starting to like it a lot.
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    "I do," Dunbar told him.
    "Why?" Clevinger asked.

    "What else is there?"

  9. #49

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    First off, @ Hollywood: Thanks for the primer! Love the decklist. I was quite excited to see your list, as it is similar to lists I have been messing with for the last month or so. Interested to see so many others chiming in, too. There's definitely something in the works, here, as so many of the decks have so many cards in common. I'll post my current list below, along with some questions/comments.

    @ morgan coke:
    I like your numbers. Hard numbers are good. Speculation is mediocre, at best. I am running 22 mana sources, at the moment. Could you give me the bob/no bob percentages of pulling 3 and 4 lands by turns 3 and 4, respectively? Better yet, could you just provide me the formula, so I can do it myself? Consistency is key to my enjoyment in playing a deck, to the point that I am willing to trade a bit of explosiveness for some consistency. Don't look for me on any Top 8 lists anytime soon. :)

    Here's my current list, with sideboard:

    Mana Sources (22):
    16x Swamp
    2x Volrath's Stronghold
    4x Dark Ritual

    Creatures (16):
    4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4x Abyssal Persecutor
    4x Vampire Nighthawk
    4x Dark Confidant

    Spells (16):
    4x Innocent Blood
    4x Smother
    3x Damnation
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    1x Chainer's Edict

    Artifacts (6):
    3x Umezawa's Jitte
    3x Powder Keg

    SB:
    4x Leyline of the Void
    4x Duress
    4x Thoughtseize
    3x Faerie Macabre

    Thoughts:
    There's really two to three "open slots" in the deck, as I see it - Nighthawk #4 and Chainer's Edict. If I'm running Nighthawk main, I want no less than three, to have some chance of seeing him regularly. (Even with 4x bob, this chance isn't too great unless I run the full 4 Nighthawk.) Faerie Macabre seems good, but I want no less than 3, if I run her. I'd consider cutting a Keg, a VNH, and the singleton Chainer's Edict for 3x Faerie main. However, I'm a little hesitant about going down to 3x VNH. To be honest, I was skeptical about the fellow until I started running enough to accomodatet for the first one being removed almost as fast as it hit the board. Now that I'm a fan, it's hard to go back. My question: Is Faerie Macabre MVP in a wide enough variety of matches to warrant maindeck slots? I can definitely see the use in certain m/u's, I'm just having cold feet here. VNH certainly is. He is a toolbox (the good kind,) once you get one to stick. I'd even consider adding a 23rd land, depending on how it would change the percentages of drawing lands 3 and 4 in a timely fashion.

    Only 16 creatures. wtf?! Call me crazy. It's working very well for me. I'm not trying to go aggro right off the bat. I want to absorb the impact of my opponent's opening 7 with my removal, Hymns, etc... then finish them off once they're in topdeck mode, or darn close to it. This list evolved from my desire to run Mono-black Control, although it's far from that, as posted. I have tested many different build-types, which I will not describe in detail for want of space, and this feels the best, to date.

    Hymn/Keg/Damnation - Nice synergy here. Hymn punishes opponents for holding back. Damnation and Keg punish them for overextending. Damnation may seem counter-synergistic. I encourage all in doubt to try it out before passing judgement. Cleans up board positions that have gotten away from you. Works well with Hymn, for reasons already mentioned. 2x Volrath's Stronghold makes it even better.

    3x Jitte, 3x Keg - Blows up stuff. Especially their Jitte and their Vial(s). Vial can be a problem, since much of the deck's removal is sorcery speed. Hymn and Keg can force them to dump their hand before your end step, so your removal can do its thing.

    4x Smother - I'm not going to discuss the Smother/Deathmark/Swords thing here. It's been done. I choose Smother. What I would like to emphasize is that at least 4 targeted removal and 4 instant-speed removal feels best to me. Smother is both of those. Play what feels best to you. It's your deck, and I'm no authority.

    Sideboard - meh. just meh. I don't hate it, but I haven't tested enough to feel out what matches are most in need of some SB-love. Obviously, I'm geared towards combo and 'yard-based decks with my build. Maybe cut 1 Leyline for the 4th Faerie? E-Plague is another option. Mine is far from optimized, IMHO.

  10. #50
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Iona is everywhere, so splashing a color is very necessary because every deck here rolls over and dies to iona. Now some people will say that is oversimplifying things but here's a summary of decks getting iona in to play very fast:ichorid, reanimator,dreamhalls,survival and probably more so. So i think a splash for white (swords, path) wouldn't be too much of an offense for hardcore MB players. You could argue that cabal therapy, and duress solves that problem for you, well duress then because first turn therapy probably won't get the problem solved if you don't know what your up against.So imho i think a splash for white would be highly recommendable and would not change the way the deck plays.Thus splashing white just for Iona? Yes, plus you can have a much better sideboard too, because MB sideboards are quite narrow i think
    Achtung: Panzer!

  11. #51

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by bleuisforwhimps View Post
    Iona is everywhere, so splashing a color is very necessary because every deck here rolls over and dies to iona. Now some people will say that is oversimplifying things but here's a summary of decks getting iona in to play very fast:ichorid, reanimator,dreamhalls,survival and probably more so. So i think a splash for white (swords, path) wouldn't be too much of an offense for hardcore MB players. You could argue that cabal therapy, and duress solves that problem for you, well duress then because first turn therapy probably won't get the problem solved if you don't know what your up against.So imho i think a splash for white would be highly recommendable and would not change the way the deck plays.Thus splashing white just for Iona? Yes, plus you can have a much better sideboard too, because MB sideboards are quite narrow i think
    Explain to me how the Reanimator player gets Iona in play when I Faerie Macabre it out and get it back in play with Exhume still on the stack game one?

    I played against konsultant in nearly 20 games of pre and post board play and out of those twenty games, he won a total of three. Three.

    Reanimator does not beat this deck. That matchup I've tested to the bone.

    I'm working Phyrexian Arena into my new list; it's been ridiculously good. Also, in some current live testing, I just defeated mono-blue Merfolk 2-1.

  12. #52

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I just ended up going 2-2 live against Zoo. Another good option might be Spinning Darkness in the sideboard. I can substitute Dark Confidant for those against Zoo and Burn, while leaving Arena in play which is a rather negligible amount of life loss when all things are considered.

    It shrinks Goyf and Lightning Helix's, essentially.

    Or even Soul Spike; that would allow me to remove the *useless* Deathmarks and do some amazing things (keeping Goyf small, too). Deathmark, however, was absolutely a bomb against Zoo. Turn one Nacatl getting trail-blazed was outstanding game one.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 03-17-2010 at 06:33 PM.

  13. #53
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Cool deck, yea my friend even used Faerie as a SB teck now, I'm seeing it show up more.

    The other day, the person who went 1st place at our 30+ tourney was using a similar deck except with Goyfs & Maelstrom pulse, funny enough, so this deck sorta caught my eye. But yea, nighthawk + jitte is a beast


    @Deathmark

    Seems okay to me. If your meta really really isn't seeing any of the power green/white creatures, SB it. I played against elves, eva green, B/W control (jotun grunts &shi*), and countertop the other day and it just so happened 4/4 games had green or white creatures in them, so in my situation I could see it =P
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  14. #54

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    You still have yet to address the severe mana issues I pointed out. Also, EDIT your posts, don't double them within a few minutes of each other.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by tyleredw View Post
    I think we can all generally accept that Deathmark is situational and definitely a metagame call. It's stupid to disagree with that point. However, I think that in a well developed metagame, the vast majority of creatures being played in tier decks are going to be affected by Deathmark enough to warrant its use. It's a house against Zoo, Bant, Thresh decks, Aggro Loam, Survival Decks, and it's not completely dead against Ichorid if they ever return a big ass Troll. That's at least one use against basically every single deck in the DTB forum. For one mana.
    I'd like to point out that Smother seems like a better call against Aggro Loam. Besides the obvious problem that Chalice at one is, Smother hits what is probably the biggest threat in Aggro Loam - Countryside Crusher.

    I think that's the point against Deathmark, it is not that it is dead most of the time (it is dead many times) but for those match ups where it is good, there are better options, or just as good.

    It is a very narrow sorcery. Cards like that need a huge upside to be maindecked. Hitting 50% of the field is not one.
    "Want all, lose all."

  16. #56

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    To critics of Deathmark as being too narrow, I have a question: how different is it from Smother or Spell Pierce? Both are considered top-class spells for what they do, but both are also extremely narrow as well.
    Firstly, a lot of decks like Merfolk often run Spell Pierce in the SB. A place Deathmark would be perfect for as others have stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    Instead of suggesting crappy decks from crappy archetypes that can't compete above tier 4 in Legacy, the OP is trying to expressly take a different approach to mono-B builds by choosing midrange control and using only cards that advance that plan. Dark Ritual is a tempo card and card disadvantage in the long run. Shriekmaw, Edict, Smother and Hymn are all tempo cards, even though Hymn nets CA. Instead of entirely missing the point by suggesting cards that have been tried and unsuccessful in making black a powerful monochromatic deck choice, consider this: all of The Gate's disruption/ removal is 1 mana, not 2. That is a very significant difference.
    So now Hymn is a crappy card used in crappy Tier 5 and below decks? You just lost all credibility there bro. 17 pages of Legacy decks on Deckcheck say Hymn has been working for people. Strange lack of Deathmark to be found too.

    What is the best turn 1 play the Gate has?
    -Duress/Therapy/Innocent Blood/Deathmark

    Compare Craig Wostratzky's list turn 1 plays:
    -Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn/Edict/Nantuko/Shriekmaw
    -Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena/Gatekeeper/Nighthawk

    Frankly Dark Ritual is at its best when you have cards like Arena or Bob, because they make up that 'disadvantage' in a single turn!

    Imagine going:
    -Dark Ritual, Duress, Bob

    Take their removal and go to town. DR also allows second turn Persecutors, which after a turn 1 Duress not many decks can probably handle. DR + Hymn open up some crazy plays. I think currently the Gate is playing too fairly for this format.

    Also I'd prefer Withered Wretch in the Faerie Macabre slot. 1 cheaper, and just destroys graveyard decks. You can pick apart all the cards you need at instant speed, meanwhile you don't have to sacrifice it to do so. The card is underrated IMO, and is leagues more effective against the graveyard-based strategies supposedly taken care of by Faerie. The only 'con' might be it doesn't have evasion; thats why you have 4x Bittblossom. Regardless, Jitte can win games regardless of what its attached to anyways because its that strong.
    Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
    Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
    Learning: Pact SI
    In storage: Enchantress

  17. #57

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    If you drop Bob for Arena, wouldn't you drop Shade for Tombstalker as well?

  18. #58

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by AcidFiend View Post
    Firstly, a lot of decks like Merfolk often run Spell Pierce in the SB. A place Deathmark would be perfect for as others have stated.

    So now Hymn is a crappy card used in crappy Tier 5 and below decks? You just lost all credibility there bro. 17 pages of Legacy decks on Deckcheck say Hymn has been working for people. Strange lack of Deathmark to be found too.

    What is the best turn 1 play the Gate has?
    -Duress/Therapy/Innocent Blood/Deathmark

    Compare Craig Wostratzky's list turn 1 plays:
    -Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn/Edict/Nantuko/Shriekmaw
    -Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena/Gatekeeper/Nighthawk

    Frankly Dark Ritual is at its best when you have cards like Arena or Bob, because they make up that 'disadvantage' in a single turn!

    Imagine going:
    -Dark Ritual, Duress, Bob

    Take their removal and go to town. DR also allows second turn Persecutors, which after a turn 1 Duress not many decks can probably handle. DR + Hymn open up some crazy plays. I think currently the Gate is playing too fairly for this format.

    Also I'd prefer Withered Wretch in the Faerie Macabre slot. 1 cheaper, and just destroys graveyard decks. You can pick apart all the cards you need at instant speed, meanwhile you don't have to sacrifice it to do so. The card is underrated IMO, and is leagues more effective against the graveyard-based strategies supposedly taken care of by Faerie. The only 'con' might be it doesn't have evasion; thats why you have 4x Bittblossom. Regardless, Jitte can win games regardless of what its attached to anyways because its that strong.
    Dark Ritual is a card that does grant you tempo; no one is disputing that. However, what you fail to realize is that decks running Dark Ritual tend to pack it in to Swords to Plowshares or a well-timed piece of counter-magic. Deathmark is no more situational than any other card which depends on a given scenario to only work. It's just a good card.

    Imagine going (on the draw): Swamp, Ritual, Hymn...

    Opponent: Spell Snare.


    This happens all too often. You dump your hand in hopes of gaining tempo early, without being able to do anything else beyond that. This is why actually a lot of players have abandoned Dark Rituals in their builds because it is a dead draw late game. I'm not looking to do that. Our goal is to run each turn with single-cost removal or discard and not looking forward to drawing dead late game. In case you haven't noticed; this deck has a phenomenal mid to late game because that is what it is tailored to do. It's not out to dump your hand turn one and then lose; that's not how this works.

    Withered Wretch is mana-intensive and is horrible against Reanimator game one. By the time you can actually play that, they probably already have something in play; something relatively large. Macabre doesn't need any prior notice and is an uncounterable piece of graveyard hate. Which brings me to my next point...

    Bojuka Bog. I really like this card, but it requires a reworking of the mana foundation. We are trading speed for control and it is important to be able to answer threats each turn. This requires us to wait. That is, however, nullified by the fact it cannot be stopped and taps for black mana.

    Craig Wostratzky's list was fine for what it was meant to do; it was a faster mono-colored deck that used traditional black spells. However, the reason people keep referring to mono-black decks as being "sub-par" or "not good" is because all you're doing is trading cards for tempo at an alarming rate. But the real issue stems in trying to recuperate after the turn one play. You go into top-deck mode, essentially like he did.

    Except it just happened to work out for him.

    @morgan-coke: The mana issues are being worked on and I'm open to suggestions. I'm trying to fit Bog in. I double-posted because I was giving updates live as they were happening.

    @caiomarcos: Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper hits Crusher too; what's your point?

  19. #59

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Actually I'm embarassed to admit I was thinking you had to sac faerie not discard it. My bad. I still like Wretch in decks that can support him tho.

    You wouldn't run into Spell Snare via Ritual + Hymn if you didn't have something to use the additional black for. Namely a Duress that would clear the way.
    Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
    Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
    Learning: Pact SI
    In storage: Enchantress

  20. #60

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Okay, so here is my current list, for reference:

    // Lands
    16 [A] Swamp
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

    // Creatures
    4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
    3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
    3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

    // Spells
    3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
    2 [CS] Deathmark
    4 [OD] Innocent Blood
    3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
    4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
    3 [US] Duress
    1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
    SB: 3 [IN] Tsabo's Web
    SB: 3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
    SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness

    Based on what everyone is saying, perhaps I can go a little deeper into the deck's match-ups and do my best to explain in an honest and fair way how the deck fares:

    NO Bant

    This is a fantastic matchup for The Gate. One of the primary characteristics of this deck is that it can knock off creatures left and right, using sacrificing as a means of kill. This helps knock off Progenitus, and two for one with Gatekeeper. Even with Counterbalance and Sensei's Top, you still play a numerous amount of three and four cost cards that it shouldn't matter if they get it online. Here is an example of a match I played recently:



    As you can see, the board state is clearly dominated by lethal damage on the board. In this game (game three), I lead off on the play with a Duress, taking a Top. I proceeded to Therapy away two Counterbalance; effectively putting my opponent in dire straits. I then dropped a Dark Confidant to generate more card advantage. Get the idea?

    This is one of the most popular decks in the format at the moment. Being able to remove all of my opponents' threats is key. Being that this deck primarily runs off creatures to begin with, The Gate shouldn't have too much trouble generating an overall advantage in every facet of the game. Even Wasteland can be potentially crucifying, as it normally is (especially after killing Hierarch, leaving them nothing).

    Merfolk Variants

    I hadn't tested this match all that much, to be honest. But I have today, and from what I can gather The Gate holds a slight advantage over mostly all Merfolk variants, including: Mono blue, splash white, or splash green. The massive amounts of removal and frankly basic Swamps essentially nullify Lord of Atlantis as being the primary source for victory. However, against Merfolk, you need to name Lord of Atlantis on the draw if they drop Vial or turn one Vial if you're on the play. This slows them down immensely and gives you the opportunity to crush their threats and establish your own.

    Games two and three are basically about playing and drawing first. If you can rip their hand apart with Hymns on the play and even Tsabo's Web (for Mutavault, perhaps), you can slow them down enough where their attempt to establish a serious board presence is greatly diminished. This is where Spinning Darkness is excellent. Being able to Helix a Lord is awesome. But overall, I'd say the match is close to 50-50 and dependent on opening hands, the draw and play factor, and mulligans.

    Goblin Variants

    Goblins are tricky because they have the ability to generate card advantage as well. Fortunately, you have answers for Lackey turn one. You also have numerous ways of shutting down their speed if you can nab cards with Therapy. Waste on Badlands is effective to stop Weirding effects and crippling their mana base. This is the match that I'd like to test a little more. I've played a few games against Goblins and it actually ended up in my favor overall. This is in large part due to the amount of removal the deck possesses. There was even an instance where Wort couldn't get a creature because I had to Macabre them away. I ended up kicking Gatekeeper and after trading blows, I "bobbed" into a draw-step Persecutor and smashed/sacrificed for the win.

    Goblins is always a difficult match, no matter what you are playing (including combo, according to a tournament report I read on here earlier). Goblins can just get crazy in a hurry, but good thing for The Gate is that it has Innocent Bloods and Gatekeeper to assist in slowing the game down. So far about even, but total advantage may go to Goblins.

    Armageddon Stax

    I've been doing some extensive testing against this deck and I've found that a startling number of games came down to the first turn period. If I could somehow dodge an early Chalice, I was okay. Other times, not so much. This is where Hymn to Tourach is so absolutely awesome, which is why I included it in the board. Nevinyrral's Disk is just balls against them, too. Crucible-Wastelocking just isn't effective against you with all the basic lands you run. And Bitterblossom is very good, assuming they do not drop Ghostly Prison.

    Game one is a rather tough one to pull out, depending on if you are on the play. In that instance, it is certainly winnable. Games two and three are more favorable because I see a lot of hate coming in for them and very little (if any) coming in for The Gate. There is another card I wanted to throw out there which seems excellent against this archetype (and Stax in general):



    It's really good with Bitterblossom. Here, you are able to stack it during your upkeep and knock off unwanted artifacts, including Chalice at one. It also hits Mox Diamond which depending on the circumstances can be very effective. Overall, this is another tightly contested match, but post-board things are amazing for you - giving you a distinct edge in the overall scheme.

    Zoo

    This is actually a very winnable match for this deck. People have a tendency to think about the loss of life being a problem, but it rarely tends to be. There is so much hate built in against creatures that there is rarely more than one on board. I've thoroughly tested this match and give an advantage to The Gate. Vampire Nighthawk and Jitte are outstanding in gaining life and knocking off creatures. Spinning Darkness is an outstanding sixth man off the bench; repaying the Helix favors. It is hard for them to recover from systematic removal and discard early. Zoo is a deck which top-decks very well.

    The Gate has draw effects built into it, and because you run discard, early on you can Duress out burn spells which may be used to whittle at your life. Burn is really the only thing this deck has to worry about and with the counteracting life-gain and removal built into it, you should have no problem at least taking the match two games to one.

    Strengths



    One of the many strengths the deck possesses is being able to slow the game down tremendously. It can take a lickin' and keep on tickin', so to speak. With much of the format being dictated and run over by cheap, effective creatures at the moment (Rhox, Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, etc.), the deck takes each of the first three turns either removing creatures from play or discarding an opponent's hand, without having to deplete your own hand too much and banking on simply a fast start to win the game. It's methodical in its approach, and that seems to work a lot of better than most think. Creatures just keep going to the meat-grinder against you.

    The creatures the deck possesses are capable of doing game-altering things. Consider knocking off an opponent's creature with Gatekeeper, and then equipping with Jitte. Or imagine them putting Iona in the yard their turn one and trying to reanimate it, only you discard Faerie to potentially get it back and stall them severely. And just imagine buying time with removal and discard while building an array of Faeries each turn. If a card in this deck does a job, there is always another to back it up, which makes it harder to stop.

    Newer cards like Spinning Darkness and Skeletal Scrying also shrink Goyf, which is always a plus.

    Weaknesses

    Well, it's mono-black for starters. Let's be honest: Mono black decks get a bad wrap from a lot of people. It's understandable, as they feel as though after the first three turns the deck goes into top-deck mode. This is true in some instances here, but we are working on fixing that. Dark Confidant can survive believe it or not beyond a turn. What the deck is currently lacking is a little more rounded out mana base to support the curve. Even with a single Swamp, the deck can do some serious damage. Getting to three is key and getting to four means bad things for an opponent. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen as often as I'd like, and I'm working on adding more land.

    I'm also trying to find another supplement to Dark Confidant, like Skeletal Scrying (which has been great). Arena won't get online until turn four, which is fine, but Scrying will hit you one from D.C. and draw you many more at an opponent's E.O.T. step. So as of right now, getting that straight is a priority.

    I hoped this helps a bit. There are more strengths and weaknesses I need to address; I'm testing to work on these and reworking a card or two here and there.

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