Do you have 2 Umezawa's Jitte in play in the game against the NO Bant player?Originally Posted by Hollywood
If so I have to tell you that this is not very techy...
Team Legal Actions.
Those are called counters that you can make visible for the player to see so that, you know, they aren't "hiding" behind the creature and subsequently misleading an opponent.
Very techy for..."stuff".
Ah, then it's alright, the thought that it could be there to show how many counter are on the jitte came to me after I posted.
But then I do not really play any mws, so excuse my wrong assumptions. No offense intended.
Team Legal Actions.
No harm, no foul.
Question. What do you think about the card Withering Wisps, maybe as like a SB card against tribal and stuff?
Gate to Phyrexia... tell me how that works, I've wanted to try running that card forever lol, don't have my hands on any
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Gate to Phyrexia seems like it would be very good also I don't know if it has been said yet but have you thought about diabolic edict, maybe instead of deathmark. I understand the logic behind deathmark it just makes me feel bad to main deck it lol. Also how about maybe just one volrath's stronghold even if only to potentially recur macabre?
Got a chance to play a few games vs. UW Tempo and Pro Bant today.
The removal package was stellar - Innocent Blood is an amazing card and was especially good versus Pro Bant. Gatekeepers and Deathmarks are really great at keeping the board clean, and Abyssal Persecutor can end games rather quickly.
For the most part the deck performed as I expected it would, but the one card I was least impressed with was Bitterblossom (oddly enough). It's a bit slow and out of place, and even though it synergizes well with some cards, the fact that it doesn't provide any immediate impact (like every other card in the deck) makes it rather underwhelming. That said, it isn't terrible, but I just am not a fan of it right now. I'd probably drop the number to something like two - the deck can function completely fine without it (and in many cases, I don't even want or need it). It might just have been the matchups I played it in and I know you strongly advocate the card - maybe I just haven't played enough games with it to see it truly shine.
In all, it feels like the deck is almost there, but still needs some sort of engine that provides more advantage. A lot of times we'll just be sitting across from each other, playing and killing each others threats, but the lack of card draw and filtering automatically puts me in worse shape than my opponents. Skeletal Scrying is a great idea, and I think it's a powerful choice. Our yards are often filled with tons of cheap spells, and it'll be an easy way to draw 3-4 cards when gas is low.
One idea, a friend of mine's actually using in a GBw deck... Fleshbag Marauder.
It's strong with Blossom & recurring nightmare (a great card for that CA u mentioned). Use to sac Persecutor, it's more smoothly imo then having to "terror" your own creature ya know. Err.. it'd be more "built in" to your game instead of being caught in a situation where you have to kill your own dude
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
I'm glad you enjoy how the deck is playing, as I'm certainly having the same results.
Going over Skeletal Scrying, a little bit: I'd like to point out how absolutely amazing this card has been in play-testing. Here are a few reasons why it has been so good in testing and in general overall:
1.) It has a converted mana cost of one with Dark Confidant, so that works out fantastic.
2.) With all of the cards you end up playing, you can draw three or four cards without a problem.
3.) It shrinks Tarmogoyf (as if that matters here).
4.) It is an instant.
5.) It is a home-run late game when you want more cards.
6.) It is totally unexpected.
7.) You can get around Chalice at one.
8.) It dodges Counterbalance.
9.) It's a game-swinging spell.
I've liked it so much, I'm working to get two in there as we speak. With that in mind, I'd like to address Bitterblossom. I am probably going to end up cutting one for the time being and see how adding a Skeletal Scrying in its stead would pan out. The way I figure it is, if I'm losing three life total to a single Bitterblossom, I can trade that same amount of life for three cards. It isn't systematic life-loss and can just flat-out win games when an opponent least expects it.
For sure.
I know that what I am about to complain about is in a niche matchup, but Mother of Runes was giving me a lot of problems against UW tempo. If they're on the play, they can still blow you out with Daze on Deathmark. From then on, it's just a lot of annoying things. Clogging up the board with cheap creatures so I can't properly use Gatekeeper / Innocent Blood, and then having a Serra Avenger + X Moms to permanently chump block my Abyssal Persecutors. And while we're on that subject, Jotun Grunts can get rid of Therapies, so you're forced to use them early and not be able to save them for your Persecutors. Stoneforge Mystic was another great addition to UW that was making my life living hell. An active jitte is still really hard to deal with and often times kept my Bitterblossoms at bay. He wasn't even running Sword of L/S, which people have been advocating in that thread.
By principle I should be able to just straight out-muscle the matchup, but while playing the deck I was still using the 16 Swamp / 4 Wasteland setup, which often left me stranded on lands and caused me to have no choice but to walk into Spell Pierces and Dazes. Having key spells Forced is really bad for this deck too, as you have no way of consistently keeping up. All this said, the matches all still came down to the wire. I think with the addition of Skeletal Scrying and more lands (18 vs 16 as you have already), the match might start turning more favorable than even, but it's still an uphill battle.
I'm testing a version of this right now with a W splash for Stoneforge Mystic and Swords. Haven't gotten many matches in but if I can get the cards I will play it at our local free tournament this Sunday and post how it does.
I'm going to playtest something similar once I have a 4th Persecutor. In the meantime I have some comments/questions.
Wouldn't Diabolic Edict be better than Innocent Blood? It's much less situational. Innocent Blood is probably only really good against Goblins, which is not so popular right now, and only on turn 1.
Have you considered/tested Blooghast + Fetchlands? He seems a rather good Jitte carrier and works with Cabal therapy too.
& finally, wouldn't it be possible to run both Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor if this deck were to replace Dark Confidant with Phyrexian Arena and include Fetchlands and Dark Rituals? I know it's probably a different deck, but the decklist is still in a state of flux.
No, it wouldn't for the aforementioned reasons on the last few pages. It is a one mana removal spell that is used to play out over the first few turns. I believe you are incorrect about Innocent Blood being more situational than Diabolic Edict, which requires you to pass on playing threats (tapping out) and then waiting another turn to play it. Innocent Blood does the job with one mana.
And no, it is not just good against Goblins. Paired with the other removal the deck possesses, depleting your opponents' threats turn in and turn out simply allows you to play your own threats and go from there. Innocent Blood hits a turn one Noble Hierarch, and does not pack it in to a Daze (like Edict would) your turn two. If they Daze that turn one, that is fine. Now they have used a counter on something that was obviously critical to begin with. Considering that, I would have to disagree.
Bloodghast doesn't block and allows an attacker to push through. It is no real threat and doesn't work half as well as the other creatures do in the deck. Fetchlands open you up for Stifle, more unnecessary life loss, and other effects than can be presented upon activation. No tricks.
So I gave this deck a try and playtested a bit against Banttop and Zoo-ish decks and I have to say
Like the people say the Bant mu is a total devastation.
Discard makes it nearly impossible (besides some funky brainstorm tricks) for the opponent to
get the cblock online and no creature will survive on the opponents side to deal any damage to us - not even progenitus.
The persecutor is a real powerhouse and I actually won a game where the opponent was on -4, had the cblock and progenitus in play.
Saccing persecutor to flashbacked therapy even when the opponent had his counters was great.
Zoo was a bit worse that bant.
While the removal package still hits everything, the maindeck macabre was a bit underperforming and nighthawks did not make that much of a difference because they died to every burn/removal spell the zoo player had. Also getting jitte online still wasn't the win because of QPM's.
I believe I played 6-5 against zoo the day.
But still this deck felt great to play and I liked it even more because it remembered me on the good Torment times where MBC with shades and shambling swarms (!!) was one of the better decks.
Team Legal Actions.
Did you try using Spinning Darkness in the board? I placed it in mine and it has vastly improved that match.
No, I played just preboard games, but spinning darkness really looks good for this matchup.
How many copies do you run in the side - 3?
Would you swap them for the faerie macabres?
Overall I think I need to test more , and also other common matchups like tempothresh (which seems very good) and dredge.
What gy hate would you advice to run?
Could planar void be of use?
Team Legal Actions.
Hollywood, would Contamination be any good in this deck's sideboard? I could potentially see it in the Tsabo's Web slot (although if that's supposed to just be dedicated hate against 43lands, then it might not be a good replacement.)
Anyhow, this deck looks fun as all f*ck... Sort of similar to some of the ideas I was kicking around when Persecutor was spoiled, but more streamlined than anything I came up with. I really want to test it.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Planar Void is bad because it knocks off your Cabal Therapies and nullifies your Skeletal Scrying. That is actually my board plan; siding out Macabre games two and three for Spinning Darkness. It has been sensational.
Threshold is disgustingly easy. I tested this match to the bone (Canadian and G/u/w). They only really run eight to nine creatures, and they bank on the fact you can't target Nimble Mongoose. You run Innocent Blood and Gatekeeper, which is very good in that scenario. Tarmogoyf dies to everything you play. Stifle and Wasteland are effectively negligent in the match. Overall, very favorable.
@Duke: 43 Lands is a pretty bad match for this deck if you can't stop an opponent on the draw with cards like Manabond. Faerie Macabre becomes relevant, but just being able to simplify all that by shutting down their offense with a two-cost artifact (that even replaces itself) is very effective. Contamination is just a win more card that wants to be good but really isn't. There are far more effective choices that can be considered in the sideboard.
17 pages includes decks from 2004 to 2010. Thats 6 years, on average you'd expect nearly 3 pages per year. Theres nearly 3 pages that cover the last 6 months however. Even if there was a big spike somewhere in the middle, thus leading to your 'dwindled sharply', its use is still above total average. 31 Top 8's in 2010 alone seems at least decent enough to suggest it is fact still 'getting there'.
Those are very rough numbers I know; feel free to share the data you based your statement on. I do like the fact Hollywood has been testing it at least in the SB. This deck is so focused on creature destruction maybe it could prove useful in the Control/Combo matchups.
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
Okay, here is an updated version of the list with some explanations:
// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
// Spells
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [OD] Skeletal Scrying
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 2 [CS] Soul Spike
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IN] Tsabo's Web
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
A few things:
1.) I'm liking the mana base with the addition of the two Bogs. They have been critical in testing and I've managed to flip those off Dark Confidant several times (which has subsequently won me those games). Two seems to be the perfect fit so far.
2.) I removed a Faerie Macabre from the main and set it at two (paired with the two Bogs). These are both uncounterable surprise game-one winners. 2-2 seems to be the best option here as they have rounded out nicely in testing.
3.) I upped the Deathmark count back up to three. I just can't say enough about this card in so many match-ups. After going to two, I just always wanted that one more. It works out nicely at the moment and I haven't had any problems with it.
4.) I mentioned I wanted to try and add another Scrying to the deck. You may also notice I cut a Bitterblossom as well. Bitterblossom is great, but I think three is the right number here because it's not too many when it isn't necessary, and it is just right when you need it most. I rounded it out by going 3-1 (Blossom-Scrying).
5.) Spinning Darkness has been great. It has helped me immensely in the Zoo matchup and is an amazing top-deck, just like Scrying. I'm trying to improve the deck's late draws by adding cards like this to help improve the match. It's so multilateral.
6.) Four Hymn to Tourach I've really enjoyed having in the sideboard. Against Storm combo on the play game two, getting one of these off early can really do some damage if you hit the right cards. Storm combo decks can be resilient, but this is one of the best cards you can honestly get against them. You have to slow them down, and this seems to do the trick.
7.) I run Soul Spike in the combo match to catch an opponent off-guard with Ad Nauseum and even give me some life. This is actually been a very effective attempt as I actually ended up killing someone in testing when they Ad Nauseum'd down to three.
8.) I ended up removing one Disk; it works really well, but I'm bringing in Hymns on the play game two and two Disk seems just fine to work with as I need to wait a little bit to get it going. Aside from that, it works out very well.
Hope this helps.
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