@ Hollywood
I've been testing several builds, including your OP build, since my post yesterday. Still deciding on what feels best to me. Each change I make seems to improve certain MUs while hurting others. I'll go into this in more detail after I play some more games with each build. I'm messing with SoFI at the moment, although I haven't played enough games with it to say anything concrete, as of yet. The advantages of SoFI are obvious. The drawbacks I would like to hear about from you, as I imagine you've given the card some thought as you build the deck.
Finally, is "Death & Blaxes" funny to anyone else but me? The deck does carry the common theme of little critters that do double duty as hate/CA. (Plus a big boy with a big black tetanus-ridden sword.) The deck does some cool tricks, albeit not quite as many as D&T. Just saying.
I'm thinking about building this deck, one thing thats nice is it has to be one of the cheapest if not the cheapest deck I've seen in legacy that also has the chance to be pretty competitive.. Persecutor, Blossom, Confidant, Jittes, Wastelands are expensive but not very much so and everything else is so cheap.
Has Sygg, River Cutthroat been mentioned as a possible additional source of card-draw? It doesn't seem like three damage to the opponent's dome a turn would be living too much of a pipe dream for this deck, considering all the evasive creatures.
Also, as much as one reason that I like this deck is that it's mono-colored, I feel like whoever made the suggestion to splash white might be on to something. Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are a pretty boss type of removal package. I mean, Innocent Blood and Deathmark are good, but I think you should at least test Swords/ Vindicate in these slots. I know Vindicate costs three mana, compared to Deathmark's one, but the added flexibility you get for the extra two mana is pretty freakin' incredible. I'm not saying necessarily that the damage to the mana base is going to be negligible compared to the gains from trying out the white splash, but I think it should be tested if it hasn't already been.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I think white cards that could be good in this deck are Swords to Plowshares and Stoneforge Mystic.
Vindicate seems to be too expensive and 3-costed slot already contains too much cards.
@ Spinning Darkness:
Looks very promissing against Zoo, Merfolks and Goblins, but what to side out? The problem is that flipping it off Dark Confidant seems to be awful against aggro...
Also, the deck is very flavorfull. Evil wizards, demons, vampires and vile spells are just everywhere in the deck. Truly Forces of Evil =)
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Adding more removal is NOT what the deck needs, we have plenty of that already. What do you need to kill with Swords that you can't kill with something else? Almost every relevant creature in the format can be handled with what the deck already offers. If people still want to harp on the gobbos / elves / merfolk or whatever matchup, you can always switch Deathmark to Smother if you actually expect a large number of said decks. I think you're missing the point of Innocent Blood - it serves as an outlet for Abyssal Persecutor. And while we're on that subject, Abyssal Persecutor out-muscles virtually all of the creatures in this format, even its older brother Tombstalker. It is an extremely efficient threat.Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
You can make the argument for Vindicate, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary that you have answers for artifacts / enchantments. It's true that cards like Elephant Grass and an opposing Jitte are problematic, but it's just something that this archetype will have to deal with. Once again, the reason I am opposing this is becase adding a color will open you up to all sorts of problems related to running nonbasics.
I'm not suggesting adding more removal, I'm suggesting that by using a little bit of white, this deck could run spell-based removal that is much more flexible than what it runs at the moment. Frankly, I don't know whether or not it would be worth it, but I'm just suggesting that it might warrant a little bit of testing.
Also, I'm not missing the point on Innocent Blood, but StP kills your own Persecutor just as well as Blood does.
It would make me happy if the mono black version of this deck is the best version and it doesn't need a splash. But from what I can tell, no one seems to have tried it out. I'm just saying I think the folks who are testing this might want to just try out a very moderate white splash and provide some feedback. If I could figure out how to make MWS work on my Mac, I'd do it myself, but I digress.
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 03-20-2010 at 09:38 PM.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
This guy wrote about it in his blog. Give it a try, worked for me:
http://richshay.com/posts/70
Yea, that was what I was wondering too. That's almost as bad as eating a Tombstalk @.@ Otherwise, I can't see boarding out Confidants, it's like the deck MvP..
In my Mono Black Stax deck, I run Dystopia's against Zoo... you take a small life hit, but you can completely wipe out their board position risking a good ~3-6 life. I found, as long as you stay above ~7 life you're safe to run away with the win.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
The chances of you flipping a Spinning Darkness off a Dark Confidant are very low. You run three. And it isn't as bad as hitting a Tombstalker. And what it can do is provide you life back and kill a creature immediately in the *remote* instance you actually do flip it. So, in that respect, it's actually quite effective.
The side-out strategy would depend on what you're playing against. Against Zoo, I'd try this:
-4 Dark Confidant
-3 Bitterblossom
-2 Faerie Macabre
+4 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Spinning Darkness
+2 Soul Spike
As the early game permits, you will obviously have more spells in the graveyard after nuking all their threats or making them discard. Then, Spinning Darkness gets that good early on.
Soul Spike could even be (and I'm trying it out, which so far has been working great) boarded in to combat mid-game threats after you've destroyed everything else in your path. It can even serve as a finisher in some circumstances. Getting to seven lands can happen when you turn in and turn out destroy everything they play. I originally intended to reserve this for the combo matchup, but with Hymn to Tourach, the other discard, removal, etc., Soul Spike can be a great mid to late game top-deck when you need it most. Try it out a little and see how it works.
The trick against Zoo is to deplete them of all their dumped resources by having an answer for everything they have. When this happens, you can just go to town with creatures. By siding out D.C. and B.B., we're negating some life loss on our part, which is good. Granted, we're not getting more cards, but there really isn't anything D.C. or B.B. tokens can kill when blocking or attacking into against Zoo anyways. That's fine, because that almost offsets with the removal we play.
-**Some cards that seem like they could potentially be good in the sideboard: Dystopia, Perish, Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Leyline of the Void...
Just wondering if any of these have been considered. Dystopia and Perish might not be necessary in a deck that plays Deathmark in the main, but Dystopia especially seems like it could be juicy against Zoo.
Extirpate seems especially good against Reanimator and any Loam-based decks. Sadistic Sacrament seems good against most Combo in general, as backup to our discard spells. Also, it seems good against random Control archetypes.
Leyline just has wide uses against the field, but I'm not sure if it would be better than Relic.
-**Also, what about my idea of Sygg, River Cutthroat? Would this dude potentially be better than the single copy of Skeletal Scrying, or would he be win-more?
Any ideas?
-**Also, @Hollywood, regarding the Zoo sideboarding plan:
Hymn to Tourach doesn't seem all that good against them, IMHO. Also, I can see taking out Dark Confidant, but I think Bitterblossom's ability to infinitely chump-block their dudes could be pretty solid in this match-up. It puts pressure on you to either find some life-gain or establish a clock, but I think -1 life a turn is pretty fair for something that says "now you have to overcommit to the board to touch me." Also, it helps you establish a clock on its own once you start to accumulate extra Faerie tokens.The side-out strategy would depend on what you're playing against. Against Zoo, I'd try this:
-4 Dark Confidant
-3 Bitterblossom
-2 Faerie Macabre
+4 Hymn to Tourach
+3 Spinning Darkness
+2 Soul Spike
EDIT: I would probably take out Jitte over Bitterblossom against Zoo, because they have enough point removal to make equipping Jitte a pain in your ass. And all the creatures in this deck besides Persecutor are gonna die to any burn spell.
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 03-22-2010 at 03:46 AM.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Dystopia is a card I have been heavily considering running in the sideboard against many other archetypes as well (Enchantress, etc.). Perish, while it is a great card, just plays out as overkill with the removal the deck plays. The sideboard is geared towards improving the combo matchup.
As far as Exirpate goes, I have considered running it in the sideboard as an alternative for Relic of Progentius. I like the fact is has split-second, but on the other hand, it does not hit the entire graveyard, which is key in some matches against cards building momentum off cards in the graveyard anyways (Knight of the Reliquary, Ichorid, etc.). With Faerie Macabres being able to nail cards early and the Bogs there to cleanup, Extirpate really isn't what I'd rather play.
Leyline is only good in your opening draw and with Dark Confidant in play it is the ultimate in bad top-decks. It's not just the fact you're losing four life, but you're probably incapable of casting it thereafter. It's just not worth it.
With Spinning Darkness and even Soul Spike, you are able to gain that life you need and knock off their creatures at the same time. I wouldn't take out those Jitte's against Zoo; no how, no way. They are ridiculously effective and are in fact the best card you can legitimately have online against Zoo. Jitte also knock off other Jitte's; a very effective play in some circumstances.
Skeletal Scrying is a supplement mid to late game when you are low on cards. Once you have depleted your removal or other spells, you are able to replensih your hand at instant speed. I've found it to be a very nice addition and have always love drawing into it.
You make some points I can agree with.
I think Sadistic Sacrament is good enough that you should consider it though. Combo and Control decks, as a whole, tend to be very light on win conditions. Against ANT, for example, you take away their Tendrils and their engine cards (Ill-Gotten Gains or whatever), and how exactly are they supposed to win after that? Playing against Landstill? Take away all but one Mishra's Factory, or take their Decree of Justices and whatnot. I think it's pretty obvious what you take against Belcher. These are all just random examples. My point is, it seems like T1 discard spell, T2 discard spell or threat, T3 Sadistic Sacrament would be a pretty dope sequence of plays against either combo or control. Yes, it costs three mana, and combo decks can sometimes win before that, but it's not like you're playing it without other discard spells to back it up.
As far as taking out Jitte against Zoo... If you really tend to get it equipped and online in this matchup, then by all means leave it in. But my guess about how it would turn out would be, "In response to your equip- Path/ Bolt/ Helix/ Fireblast/ etc."
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
And what this does is it inherently forces my opponent to conserve their burn and spot removal for my creatures now, instead of me. That is exactly what I would want to have happen; to force my opponent to expend burn spells on something that isn't me.
Without Dark Ritual, Sadistic Sacrament loses a lot of its appeal, though. As far as I know it's mainly used in the SB by ANT decks, which have a lot of acceleration.
Also with those Bojuka Bogs and Wastelands it seems quite likely you won't always have BBB on turn 3.
Ironically, Bitterblossom tokens are the only creatures in this deck which I would consider them getting burned out in response to an equip as being a favorable exchange (maybe also Gatekeeper, since it would usually imply that he already killed one of their creatures). And you seem pretty set that you're siding out Blossom vs Zoo...
The problem with the strategy of using Jitte to draw out their burn spells to your creatures, as I see it, is that you will be trading two-to-three mana creatures (plus theyou spend to equip), for their one-mana removal spells. So let's say you get Nighthawk killed by a Bolt after you try to equip. This is essentially a one-for-one trade, because they lose one card (Bolt) and you lose one (Hawk). But the difference is, they spent
plus one card, and you spent
(cast Hawk + equip) plus one card on that play. You saved yourself three damage in the short run, but you still don't have any counters on Jitte yet, and you just got out-tempo'ed like a muffucka on that play. (This is basically the same argument that everyone uses to explain why Jitte is bad against Zoo if you're playing Merfolk. If you want to see it reiterated by many other people, just check that thread's history.)
Yes, Jitte kills opposing Jitte, and yes, it's going to be the nuts against Zoo if you can get some counters on it. But if you really want to use Jitte to get them to waste burn on insignificant creatures, keep Bitterblossom in, because Faerie tokens are the ideal thing that you could possibly get them to spend a Lightning Bolt on. Not to mention that no creatures in Zoo fly, so if you do get a succesfully equipped Faerie token, it's swinging to the dome every turn until they get rid of it.
EDIT: 100th post. It's a celebration, bitches.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I've been trying to reconfigure the mana base to allow that third Faerie Mcabre back in the main. I just always keep wanting to have him in my opening draw, and he turns into a beater whenever you need him. The Bojuka Bogs are good, don't get me wrong, it's just that against decks like Reanimator it is far easier for them to go off with an EOT Mystical Tutor and nullifying the Bogs' effectiveness. But at the same time, I'm trading mana production for versatility, which is good and all, except I do want to have an acceptable amount of black mana.
I'm reworking that as we speak.
I think Volrath's Stronghold could be a good one-of. I know you're not trying to have too many non-basics, but your creatures are definitely good enough to exploit Stronghold, and its ability is pretty broken.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
@ Hollywood:
I am currently at 3 Faerie Macabre, 1 bog. Overall, I feel like Fae's ability is more useful in a wider variety of matchups than bog. Un-counterability and instant speed are clutch. I even keep #4 in the board. I was skeptical on the card at all, to begin with; now I'm totally sold. Very good call.
@ Duke
Volrath's Stronghold is up in the air for me. It looks perfect - recur fallen duders, duders you sacked to therapy, McFaerie, etc... However, it is not always as useful as I'd like it to be. The cost often means tapping out, or close to it. In the early game, this is not too good a deal for us. We're focused on getting them into topdeck mode at that point in time. Mid to late game, it's not bad, but in testing I've found I'm usually on my way to winning by the time Stronghold becomes viable. Very rarely has it actually turned a losing situation into a win.
My current manabase:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Volrath's Stronghold
15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
If I cut the Strongholds, it's going to be for two basic swamps. Note that I'm not running wastes. If I run wastes, I'll go 4 waste, 17 swamp, 1 bog. 15 swamps, or other turn 1 sources of B that don't require a land (i.e., Ritual) seems like an absolute minimum to me. I have a hunch Hollywood's base, although possessing less "cool stuff potential," may be the more solid choice. Still, I will play more games with my current build, my possible cut of Stronghold, and Hollywood's build with wastes. I want to get a better feel for how valuable Stronghold may or may not be.
How do you figure that Dark Ritual is a first turn source ofother turn 1 sources of B that don't require a land (i.e., Ritual)
-Chubu!
Honestly I'm really not too crazy about Dark Ritual in this specific deck, I think it makes it less consistent overall, because it's pretty bad except for on your first or second turn. Ritual is good in decks that are trying to win as quick as possible. This deck is more looking to get to the mid-game and dominate.
As far as Volrath's Stronghold, I would probably never run more than one, because it's legendary and doesn't produce
Also, I'm in favor of the 3-1 split on Faerie Macabre/ Bojuka Bog. Instant speed and un-counter-ability are good, and being a 2/2 flier when grave hate is irrelevant is good. Meanwhile, coming into play tapped on the Bog kind of irks me, but it's a strong effect, so mise have one copy.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Instead of changing the manabase and open yourself up to non-basic hate, you could aswell run Sword of Light and Shadow. It recurrs creatures from your yard aswell and netting you some life at the time. I think that equipping a BB token with the sword seems good enough, although this requires more mana (1 more mana to play and the added equipcost), but it gives you so much more for the mana investment.
As far as Volrath's Stronghold, I would probably never run more than one, because it's legendary and doesn't produce
Since the deck already runs x Jittes, you could easily replace one, or just add 1 SoLS in the mix. Equipping Vampire Nighthawk with this is good I've heard, even races some monsters like Progenitus.
It's just a thought, there's no testing behind this statement. It might be all wrong. But it's a way better "recurr" effect than Volrath's Stronghold imo.
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