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Thread: [Deck] The Gate

  1. #1961
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Blood moon!
    I prefer Magus, since it beats down too, but yes. Blood Moon indeed.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

  2. #1962

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I'm thinking of trying Kitesail Freebooter in the list as it's a good way to connect with jitte and also acts as temporary duress. Anyone has experience with the card?

    It would probably conflict with the copter spots (evasive creature) but it could be better in a more combo oriented meta. I just like looting so much in longer games that I haven't given it enough thought.
    Last edited by Cpt-Qc; 02-11-2018 at 01:38 PM.

  3. #1963

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Is anyone still playing a mono-black build of this deck? I'm curious how it performs these days, and what it looks like.

  4. #1964

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    You really need a good reason not to splash 1 color at the very least in legacy since a 2 color deck can easily live on basics alone like miracles shows us. You only need 2-4 duals and you have your splash (you don't even need basics other than swamps).

    Black is a little like blue in that it doesn't answer permanents very well once they hit the board. Green adds many catch-all options so it's the most polyvalent splash.

  5. #1965

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    You really need a good reason not to splash 1 color at the very least in legacy since a 2 color deck can easily live on basics alone like miracles shows us. You only need 2-4 duals and you have your splash (you don't even need basics other than swamps).

    Black is a little like blue in that it doesn't answer permanents very well once they hit the board. Green adds many catch-all options so it's the most polyvalent splash.
    While I'm grateful for the reply, it doesn't really answer my questions. I'm interested in (a) if anyone still plays mono-black, and (b) what a mono-black version might look like.

    Moreover, while I appreciate the relative ease of splashing in Legacy and the advantages of doing so, I'm not convinced it is as trivial as you say.

    We have a deck that frequently wants on turn 2 (Duress+Therapy, Hymn, Aetherborn, etc.), and definitely by turn 3 (Nighthawk). A thorough analysis of the required colored sources to cast spells indicates that we should have in the ballpark of 20 sources. Wastelands weigh heavily, Forests more heavily still, and relying on Bayou and Urborg opens us to really bad Wasteland exposure.

    Other mono-chromatic decks exist in the format: Pox, Death and Taxes, Burn, and Merfolk. Each of these prioritizes their color sources for the same reason (Pox wants turn 2 for many similar spells, Burn wants straight for all its Bolts), or copes in some way for their absence (Aether Vial for DnT's creatures). These are the decks The Gate resembles: running powerful cards deep in a single color.

    In contrast, blue decks cheat. Most run a score of cantrips, and can get by on just a single source anyway. Miracles has plenty of time and digging power to find . In contrast, we don't dig nearly as well (only Confidant) and don't have the luxury of waiting, so we really shouldn't be treating all decks as if they can handle splashing like blue decks.

    I suppose DRS compensates to some extent, but I'm not convinced it really is better than just not having to deal with the complications at all. There aren't many permanents that I feel mono-black can't work around to some degree (well, maybe Light of Day).

  6. #1966

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I'm also opposed to the idea of a heavy commitment to a second color because just like you said the color requirements of mono black are quite demanding and after all this is sort of a midrange deck which means a single land loss can set you back quite a bit if your plan is to play cards like Nighthawk or Obliterator. One has to acknowledge though that green offers possibilites to handle cards that otherwise hose mono black like the one you mentioned but also Karma and Compost. I do in fact play a mono black deck in the current format and one insight I had is that sacrifice effects are currently not as good as they used to be if only because of the prevalence of Young Pyromancer. The current iteration of Delver also features a creature selection that is quite diverse which makes it hard to deal with so you have to be careful when choosing your removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    While I'm grateful for the reply, it doesn't really answer my questions. I'm interested in (a) if anyone still plays mono-black, and (b) what a mono-black version might look like.

    Moreover, while I appreciate the relative ease of splashing in Legacy and the advantages of doing so, I'm not convinced it is as trivial as you say.

    We have a deck that frequently wants on turn 2 (Duress+Therapy, Hymn, Aetherborn, etc.), and definitely by turn 3 (Nighthawk). A thorough analysis of the required colored sources to cast spells indicates that we should have in the ballpark of 20 sources. Wastelands weigh heavily, Forests more heavily still, and relying on Bayou and Urborg opens us to really bad Wasteland exposure.

    Other mono-chromatic decks exist in the format: Pox, Death and Taxes, Burn, and Merfolk. Each of these prioritizes their color sources for the same reason (Pox wants turn 2 for many similar spells, Burn wants straight for all its Bolts), or copes in some way for their absence (Aether Vial for DnT's creatures). These are the decks The Gate resembles: running powerful cards deep in a single color.

    In contrast, blue decks cheat. Most run a score of cantrips, and can get by on just a single source anyway. Miracles has plenty of time and digging power to find . In contrast, we don't dig nearly as well (only Confidant) and don't have the luxury of waiting, so we really shouldn't be treating all decks as if they can handle splashing like blue decks.

    I suppose DRS compensates to some extent, but I'm not convinced it really is better than just not having to deal with the complications at all. There aren't many permanents that I feel mono-black can't work around to some degree (well, maybe Light of Day).

  7. #1967

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I agree completely, which is why I have only a mild splash (2 bayous + 4 drs which would be there even if I didn't have green because it's way too good to pass). I rarely ever find myself needing more black mana.
    Last edited by Cpt-Qc; 04-02-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  8. #1968
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Mono-black Gate from Medea: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/245603029

    I rather like the durdly Bitterblossom build, but sometimes you just have to smash them.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  9. #1969

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Nice to see people trying but his list is pretty bad It's like it's stuck in the past: the current meta would eat it alive in no time.

  10. #1970

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    Nice to see people trying but his list is pretty bad It's like it's stuck in the past: the current meta would eat it alive in no time.
    Wtf he 4-1d and you’re giving him grief for using an old list ? You wanted results and you got it . Now you make fun of him for giving you good results ? Where’s your 4-1?

  11. #1971
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Regardless of results I don't see where the stuck in the past thing comes from. This is the first list I've seen that uses:

    • Obliterator over Percy
    • Lashwrithe over Jitte
    • Arena over Bitterblossom as your CA enchantment
    • Hippie over Therapy as additional CA-generating discard
    • just one sac effect in the 75 (in LiliVeil).


    If you've been brewing with these changes I wish you had posted a list!

    EDIT: I know some lists in the past have used Obliterators, or a couple Arenas, etc. Nothing recent has used these changes together. Effective deckbuilding doesn't mean you never use old printings. It means evaluating cards to see if they're useful for a particular expected metagame, and I think he's done that. It's not a perfect deck, and it loses to itself or to land-based strategies. But it's not nearly as outdated as a typical Bitterblossom, Percy, Jitte, Gatekeeper, Therapy list.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  12. #1972

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    @Kramer I'm gonna bite even if that was a blatant fallacy

    First off, chill out man. I'm not griefing anyone, just saying he was lucky and that any deck can do well given good draws and matchups. I thought it was pretty obvious I was wishing him well when I said I liked seeing him trying to put the deck forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curby View Post
    Regardless of results I don't see where the stuck in the past thing comes from.
    Most of these cards are old strategies that were thoroughly tested and yes I tried them: no they don't work.

    Obliterator over Percy > Obliterator is one of the oldest tech mono black has ever had but neither are good when they can both die to the two most common 1 mana removal.
    Lashwrithe over Jitte > This is not even remotely comparable. Jitte is removal/Card advantage. This is just a big dumb beater. This is very good synergy with the rest of his deck since he has a lot of lifelinkers and can buy time (even if I think Nightwalk is unplayable now being 3 mana for a creature that dies to bolt). I just don't see how it helps winning when ahead or taking back board control when behind so no real purpose.
    Arena over Bitterblossom as your CA enchantment > Once again, an old staple of mono black, Arena is a very good card but it requires playing dark rituals, which I found to be quite bad when you're trying to get Card advantage since you'll often get dazed, pierced or forced and now you're down 2 cards instead of up. It really kills your game when it happens. It's a gamble I'm not willing to take anymore.
    Hippie over Therapy as additional CA-generating discard > Another mono black card that used to be played 8 years ago. There are no way this is legacy playable anymore since it's way too slow and will probably never connect.
    just one sac effect in the 75 (in LiliVeil) > I don't see how this could be considered good given the prevalence of Marit Lage and TNN... Meta dependant I guess.

    Revisiting old cards is fine but the problem with these cards is not about their power level: It's just that they are too slow for today's metagame. Legacy has gotten increasingly fast over the years, so fast Tarmogoyf is barely played anymore. Unless the format slows down considerably, most 3+ drops of the past are never going be relevant again.

  13. #1973

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    The format doesn't entirely consist of "fast" decks though, there are grindy matchups where CA and tools for attrition highly matter, e.g. Miracles, Jund or Pile. If you continously try to make the deck "faster" by lowering the curve we will effectively weaken the deck at a certain point because the balance between efficiency and late game power becomes skewed. That's the biggest issue in my opinion, i.e. adressing each archetype (combo, control, aggro) at the same time

  14. #1974
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    @Kramer I'm gonna bite even if that was a blatant fallacy

    First off, chill out man. I'm not griefing anyone, just saying he was lucky and that any deck can do well given good draws and matchups. I thought it was pretty obvious I was wishing him well when I said I liked seeing him trying to put the deck forward.
    I'd say there was a fair amount of luck involved, given that he also went 1-4 on the same stream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    Most of these cards are old strategies that were thoroughly tested and yes I tried them: no they don't work.
    What kind of shell were they tried in? As you note, Nighthawk isn't too scary by itself, but Nighthawk with a suddenly-equipped Lashwrithe can be a 16-point lifeswing, which (1) isn't out of the question in the lategame, (2) isn't that unreliable with tons of discard to clear the way and (3) can even outrace a batterskull-equipped TNN. Cards don't exist in a vacuum but rather need to work in the context of a deck, which brings me to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc View Post
    Revisiting old cards is fine but the problem with these cards is not about their power level: It's just that they are too slow for today's metagame. Legacy has gotten increasingly fast over the years, so fast Tarmogoyf is barely played anymore. Unless the format slows down considerably, most 3+ drops of the past are never going be relevant again.
    Yeah, but what shell? Phil took expensive cards, ran mana acceleration to cheat them out, and used extra card draw to recover from that inherent card disadvantage. If you consider Red Prison, it runs even more 3+ cost cards, but builds around them. Perhaps a different plan would be useful here, e.g. Chrome Mox instead of, or in addition to, Dark Rit.

    Regardless, I agree the list he played had some holes. I'd like to see more attention paid to land-based strategies. I think Smuggler's Copter could do well to lower the curve, add some much needed card-selection, and still maintain evasion.

    Ultimately, it's nice that someone is trying different things, as I don't think "conventional wisdom" Gate builds have done anything noteworthy either.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  15. #1975

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    The problem is our big 3 drops don't impact the board right away. Blood moon is well worth the risk of getting blown out because once it hits the board, the decks you keep it against are dead. It's a pseudo-t1kill.
    Having Arena out on T1 is very good, but it'll take 3-5 turns before you get any kind of advantage and it could get answered.

    I agree thinking outside the box is good which is why I don't hate Lashwrite, I'm just not too keen on nighthawk after getting blown out so many times with it.

  16. #1976
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    3x Bloodghast
    4x Deathrite Shaman
    4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4x Gifted Aetherborn
    2x Tombstalker
    4x Vampire Nighthawk

    4x Fatal Push
    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Thoughtseize

    2x Lashwrithe
    3x Sylvan Library

    2x Badlands
    2x Bayou
    8x Fetch
    8x Swamp

    Side
    2x Abrupt Decay
    2x Faerie Macabre
    4x Price of Progress
    3x Reanimate
    2x Smuggler's Copter
    2x Surgical Extraction

    Longtime lurker, 1st time poster. Avid Pox player but it’s always fun to sleeve something else. Even though this deck accomplishes different things, I still want to lead with Swamps into Thoughtseize into Hymn. Hopefully that happens at least once before the inevitable Fetch into DRS. I played a mono black list with Percy a long time ago, but moved on to other decks.

    Currently Bobless and won’t be acquiring him again until another Masters reprint or so. Enter Sylvan Library. If I’m going to be jamming Bayou for Deathrite I can’t not play it. I am interested in hearing if Phyrexian Arena is better, but not if I have to jam Dark Ritual. While it’s my favorite card ever, Dark Ritual is card disadvantage.

    I can find 2 copies of Jitte to borrow, but Lashwrithe is a personal favorite. The lifeloss from Library and Lash is hopefully made up by 8 Lifelinkers in Nighthawk and Nightwalk.

    Tombstalker is there because all the other creatures very much die to Fatal Push and Bolt. Are there better options? Fishbowling he still isn't the easiest to cast with a bajillion permanents, Cabal exiling and DRS eating. Phyrexian Obliterator seems like a lot of fun but still dies to Push.

    I have Liliana of the Veil. Is she necessary?

    Blind do we turn 1 DRS or discard? Dependent on the rest of your hand but I was curious if there was a consensus.

    Price of Progress steals 8-12 damage. Seems like a solid backup plan against Eldrazi or Lands.
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  17. #1977
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    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I would be jamming at least 3 tombstalker myself. I also think if you want to splash red it would be good to play PoP maindeck. You're definitely an aggro deck.

    Blind i would say Drs t1 almost 95% of the time. If you know your matchup, or have a good idea, and you could lose t1, then therapy. But most decks aren't t1 decks. Drs makes you have more explosive t2's.
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  18. #1978

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    With the banning of DRS, the whole format is in disarray. Some decks might never come back from these latest changes but it also means it's time for new decks to pop up... or should I say, old ones?

    Now that JUND is in a not-so-great shape, I think it's time we introduce people to the new "mono black" jund! I think the Gate has the potential for to become the go-to value deck of the format while remaining competitive. Here's the list I've been working on since the banning. I am yet to actually test it but it looks like it's in a good spot right now.

    Artifacts(2)
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    Creatures(14)
    1 Abyssal Persecutor
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    3 Gifted Aetherborn
    2 Vampire Nighthawk

    Enchantments(3)
    2 Bitterblossom
    1 Sylvan Library

    Instants(8)
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Fatal Push

    Planeswalkers(2)
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Sorceries(10)
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Thoughtseize

    Lands(21)
    2 Badlands
    2 Bayou
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    7 Swamp
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Slaughter Games

  19. #1979

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    I can already tell you from a first glance that Dark Ritual will be bad in your list. You don't have any reliable way to recover from it (Confidant doesn't count) and also no way to avoid drawing it mid to lategame. There's hardly worthile stuff you can ramp into with it as well.

  20. #1980

    Re: [Deck] The Gate

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    I can already tell you from a first glance that Dark Ritual will be bad in your list. You don't have any reliable way to recover from it (Confidant doesn't count) and also no way to avoid drawing it mid to lategame. There's hardly worthile stuff you can ramp into with it as well.
    Wait.. so T1 liliana isn't good enough for you? what about T1 discard+bob/blossom/hymn. Then maybe T2 slaughter games? It's certainly better than anything traditional Jund can do anyway.

    Might be worth it to test with some chalice/magus of the moon in the board as well.

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