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Thread: [Deck] Elves Combo

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    [Deck] Elves Combo

    ELVES COMBO





    Introduction
    Elves combo is an interesting legacy specimen, and it has been ever since it was ported from extended. Just to be precise, by "elves combo" (which should probably be renamed to "glimpse elves" to avoid ambiguity) I'm reffering to the archetype containing the following cards: glimpse of nature, nettle sentinel and heritage druid. Most elves archetypes, including this one, lie under the legacy radar at the moment, but they appear on top 8-32 lists once in a while and have drawn their share of attention. I believe the archetype is still underdeveloped compared to many other mainstream decks, and I’d like to see the lists get tighter and more competitive.

    [NOTE: a few more updates to come shortly]


    Contents
    1. Popular Decklists
    2. Gameplan
    a The Main Plan
    b Tutoring
    c The backup Plan
    3. Card Choices
    a Engine Cards
    b Toolbox Cards
    c Tutor Cards
    d Win Condition Cards
    e Unconventional Cards
    4. Personal Decklist (in progress)



    1. POPULAR DECK LISTS

    ***COMBO ELVES by Menendian & Durand, 02-22-2010***
    Note: this is an old list that was released before NO/prog was being used, but it still contains most of the essentials.

    ---1cc Creatures (28)
    4 nettle sentinel
    4 heritage druid
    4 birchlore rangers
    4 quirion ranger
    4 wirewood symbiote
    4 Llanowar elves
    4 fyndhorn elves

    ---2-3cc Creatures (6)
    4 elvish visionary
    1 eternal witness
    1 viridian shaman

    ---4+cc Creatures (1)
    1 regal force

    ---Spells (9)
    4 summoner's pact
    4 glimpse of nature
    1 grapeshot

    ---Mana Base (16)
    1 elvish spirit guide
    15 forests

    ---Sideboard (15)
    4 tormod's crypt
    2 Viridian Shaman
    1 Brain Freeze
    4 Krosan Grip
    4 umezawa's jitte


    ***COMBO ELVES by SpeedofDark***
    Note: this is not my personal decklist, but rather my modern interpretation of the above list with NO/prog added.

    ---1cc creatures (28)
    4 nettle sentinel
    4 heritage druid
    4 birchlore ranger
    4 Quirion Ranger
    4 wirewood symbiote
    4 fyndhorn elves
    4 llanowar elves

    ---2-3cc creatures (4)
    4 elvish visionary
    1 mirror entity

    ---Fatties (2)
    1 regal force
    1 progenitus

    ---Spells (12)
    3 summoner's pact
    4 natural order
    4 glimpse of nature

    ---Mana Base (15)
    15 forests

    ---Sideboard (15)
    *4 graveyard hate
    *4-8 countertop/chalice hate
    *0-4 combo hate
    *0-4 aggro hate

    graveyard hate: relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt, leyline of the void, faerie macabre
    countertop/chalice hate: krosan grip, viridian shaman, vexing shusher
    combo hate: mindbreak trap, thorn of amethyst
    aggro hate: elf lords, umezawa's jitte



    2. GAMEPLAN

    2.a THE MAIN PLAN
    Have 3 elves in play, including heritage and nettle, play glimpse, play a bunch of 1 mana creatures. Draw cards, play more creatures, etc. As you combo, the nettle sentinels will produce more mana than you are spending, and any additional symbiote/elvish visionary/glimpse you play will ensure that even if you get several stale draws in a row your combo will keep going. Another option for fueling the combo is using a tutor to play regal force. Most decks include a kill card to finish the game on the same turn such as grapeshot (which can be played with birchlore rangers).

    The deck generally combos between turn 2-5, and has the option of falling back on aggro if the combo fails. Turn 2 wins are not extremely common, but they happen most often in one of two ways:

    turn 1: forest, any elf
    turn 2: forest, nettle, heriage
    tap for 3 mana, glimpse (untap nettle), 2 elves, draw 2 cards, tap for 3 mana, etc.

    turn 1: forest, nettle
    turn 2: forest, birchlore, glimpse
    tap both for 1 mana, play an elf (draw a card), tap that elf and nettle for 1 mana, etc.

    Comboing turn 2 with birchlore is much more risky, but it’s reasonable to attempt if you have more than one nettle to work with. Note that in both cases, you don’t necessarily need 2 forests as long as you have something to compensate for it, such as quirion (bounce and replay forest) or more than one nettle and birchlore. Example:
    turn 1: forest, nettle
    turn 2: birchlore, tap both for 1 mana, nettle, tap both for 1 mana, play heritage, tap for 3 mana, glimpse, etc.


    2.b TUTORING
    The main tutor used in most combo elves decks is summoner’s pact, and for good reason. The idea is that you cast it on the same turn you combo off in order to avoid the drawback (upkeep cost). If it’s used this way, it’s essentially a 0 mana tutor. Once the combo is under way, pacts are usually used to fetch creatures which help fuel card draw (visionary, symbiote, regal force). Also note that casting pact adds to storm count and untaps all sentinels.

    Usually 4 tutors is not enough for the deck to run smoothly, so there is a small list of acceptable tutors to accompany them. The most common ones are chord of calling, natural order, survival of the fittest and weird harvest, although there might be other options available such as a wishboard. Each of these tutors offer different advantages and disadvantages, which are often reflected in some of the card choices in the decks. For example, natural order can play giant green creatures for cheap (progenitus, regal force), chord of calling can play non-green creatures with birchlore (mirror entity), survival can combo (anger, masked admirers, iona/retainer, etc.) and weird harvest can go crazy if a lot of mana is available.


    2.c BACKUP PLAN
    The first backup plan is an additional way to draw cards and is usually accomplished with symbiote+visionary (sometimes a few copies of messenger as well).

    The second backup plan is aggro. Naturally most of the deck consists of creatures, so that’s somewhat already taken care of. However, if you are facing off against another aggro deck and can’t combo off for whatever reason, you’ll probably need extra support. For this reason some decks play some of hivemaster, messenger, mirror entity, or elf lords either maindeck or in the sideboard.

    The final backup plan is an alternate win condition. The most common one (and probably most potent) is natural order+progenitus. Other acceptable options include survival shenanigans, staff of domination, or mana sinking into weird harvest.



    3. CARD CHOICES

    3.a ENGINE CARD CHOICES
    nettle sentinel: the main mana engine of the deck when combined with birchlore ranger or heritage druid.

    heritage druid: the second most important card in the deck after nettle sentinel.

    birchlore rangers: an overall lesser version of heritage druid, but still strong and necessary for consistency.

    quirion ranger: the untap effect helps to produce extra mana, and extra mana can be produced when you don’t hit your land drops. Most notably, you can produce 2 mana with 1 forest or 4 mana with 1 forest and 1 llanowar.

    wirewood symbiote: excellent fuel for the glimpse combo, because it effectively plays 2 creatures, and even moreso if you can bounce and replay elvish visionary. Can also be used to dodge removal on key creatures.

    llanowar elves/ fyndhorn elves: The next best 1cc elves after the ones already on the list. Accelerates your mana and synergizes nicely with quirion and symbiote.

    arbor elf: Another (marginally inferior) llanowar clone. If you wanted more than 8 llanowar clones, this would be a good option.

    elvish visionary: another excellent way to fuel the glimpse combo, and forms a secondary draw engine with symbiote.

    glimpse of nature: Without this card, the deck would not exist.


    3.b TOOL BOX CARDS
    eternal witness: mid combo it can be used as fuel (summoner’s pact, glimpse, regal force, etc.), before combo it can be used to return key creatures which were hit by removal (heritage, nettle, etc.).

    viridian shaman: considering this deck’s weaknesses and the shape of the current meta, it’s very reasonable to play artifact hate mainboard.

    vexing shusher: the application of the shusher against counter spells is fairly obvious, but the most potent effect is to force creatures through chalice and countertop.

    elvish archdruid/ joraga warcaller/ elvish champion: aggro backup for when it’s needed.

    regal force: The card to guarantee your combo Is going all the way. Since most decks play a few tutors, its highly recommended to play a copy.


    3.c TUTOR CARDS
    summoner's pact: this card works extremely well in this deck. The general idea is to use it on the same turn you combo, effectively making it an incredible 0 mana tutor. Before you go off it can be used to fetch missing pieces, and during the combo it will usually be used on nettle or regal force. If you need to use it and pass the turn, it’s still acceptable since this deck has no problem paying the upkeep mana.

    natural order: often one of the preferred turors for combo elves. First, it can put regal force into play without actually having to pay its cost, and the second the NO/prog (natural order/progenitus) combo is a formidable backup win condition.

    weird harvest: the idea with weird harvest is often to use it similarly as summoner’s pact, that is to cast it on the same turn you combo (to ignore the drawback). It has the disadvantage of costing 3 mana for 1 creature, however if you can produce large x, it can quickly turn from an innocent tutor into a win condition of its own. The more mana you can produce, the better it becomes, so it probably fits best in versions which play priest of titania, or gaea’s cradle.

    chord of calling: If you tap a non-elf creature or don't have a heritage in play, it effectively costs 1 less mana than weird harvest. It also offers additional benefits such as instant speed and no drawbacks. However, the main advantage provided by chord of calling is the ability to play non-green creatures without the help of birchlore. This is especially effective when combined with mirror entity, predator dragon, or sneaky sideboard creatures (gaddock teeg, burrenton forge-tender, magus of the moon, etc.)

    survival of the fittest: the engine card already stands on its own merits, and synergizes with elves in a variety of ways. It gives more value to your toolbox creatures, as they can more reliably come to your hand when you need them, its probably the best card to help you recover from sweepers, and it can often support you as you're combo, by fetching creatures you need for additional fuel. And finally, if your board set up is strong enough, you can combo off with survival itself.


    3.d WIN CONDITION CARDS
    It is important to have 1 card dedicated to winning the game the same turn you combo, because this effectively speeds up your average goldfish by almost a full turn. A good kill card should be almost impossible to stop.

    grapeshot: quick and easy to deploy: only requires 1 mana and 2 tapped elves. Since a successful combo usually lets you play most of your deck, any storm card will essentially do the trick. The reason grapeshot is preferred over others is because it is likely to be the most helpful if you cannot combo (at least not fully). The idea is that if you hit your opponent with a weak grapeshot, you can finish them off by simply attacking next turn.

    brain freeze: requires 1 mana and 4 tapped elves. Brainfreeze usually requires less storm count (16-17), but this is not relevant since comboing off as far as 16-17 storm count usually implies you can play your whole deck (thus reach 20 no problem). On the other hand, if you cannot combo fully and get a small storm count on brainfreeze, it does not help you towards winning. Also, cards like gaea’s blessing or emrakul trump the win condition. The advantage provided by brainfreeze is that it can still kill a player using glacial chasm.

    progenitus: Combos with natural order for a near-unstoppable alternate win condition. Since its slower than your main combo, it won’t help against other fast decks, but it works extremely well against most forms of aggro.

    mirror entity: By bouncing symbiote repeatedly, you can: 1. make an arbitrary amount of mana, 2. make your elves arbitrarily large, and 3. untap an arbitrary amount of creatures. By itself it is 1 turn slower than other win conditions in a full combo, however you can include surival/anger or concordant crossroads to fix this problem. Note that chord of calling can play mirror entity without relying on nonbasic lands or birchlore.


    3.e UNCONVENTIONAL CARDS

    wirewood hivemaster: this is in many lists, partly because it was played in the extended deck from which combo elves was ported. During a full combo, it is unecessary since your win condition will end the game anyways. During play or failed combos, it does generate an acceptable amount of aggro potential, however many players prefer to use these slots for toolbox options or cards that improve the consistency of the combo goldfish.

    priest of titania: She works well with quirion and symbiote, and can help in accelerating certain hands, but in general she is a lot less useful in this deck than more traditional elf decks. She probably shouldn’t be included unless there are extra incentives to do so, such as a backup win condition requiring mana.

    gaea's cradle: Often in combo elves, this land actually ends up being less useful than you would intuitively think. And from my experience its occasional usefulness is overshadowed by its occasional inconvenience (aka 1 land hands that could go off turn 2-3, but unfortunately that 1 land is gaea). It might barely make the cut by its own merits, but in a format with a lot of nonbasic land hate, it's often better to drop it. If it is included, it will often be 1-2 copies, with an acceptable land count (15-17) and crop rotation.

    crop rotation: Has obvious synergy with gaea's cradle, but is probably not warranted unless there are other nonbasic lands (if the deck is not mono-green for example).

    staff of domination: The rules text reads as follows: "if you control an elf that can tap for at least 5 mana, you win the game." It's used with titania and archdruid as a backup win condition. Although its a rather cheap 2 card combo, titania/archdruid can be a bit clunky for the main combo and staff of domination is not very useful by itself.

    banefire: Another decent win condition. A full combo will always produce the 20 mana necessary, so that’s no problem. For nonexistent or failed combos, the question is: will it be more useful than grapeshot? Overall, I think grapeshot will surpass it, but banefire might be an acceptable substitution in a build which produces more mana.

    predator dragon: Works acceptably well as a win condition, both with the main combo and with chord of calling+8 creatures. However, due to the large amount of cheap instant removal, it is a very fragile and all-in win condition, to which others are usually preferred.

    tendrils of agony: To be honest, I’ve never seen this card run instead of grapeshot (and probably for good reason), but let’s consider it nonetheless. In a full combo, it will do the same thing. It requires more mana and tapped elves, but that shouldn’t be a problem. If the combo doesn’t go well, it might be able to kill where grapeshot would fail but this will only happen in the window of 10-19 storm count. However, any storm count above 10-13 is likely to do a full combo and render the choice of storm card irrelevant. If the storm count is small (<10), it could make a better storm card, but in this scenario it’s too likely that you won’t have enough mana/untapped elves to play it. The conclusion is that it has some situational advantages over grapeshot, but grapeshot probably has more.

    emrakul, the aeons torn: This might look like jank, but there is actually no problem with this win condition per se. A full combo will always produce 15 mana and be able to play it. When it does, you will have a full turn to swing with 20+ elves and a 15/15 flyer, and this will always work except in the most extreme circumstances (moat + humility?). However, unlike other win conditions, the card might not be helpful at all if you do not combo off.


    4. PERSONAL DECKLIST (in progress)

    ***COMBO ELVES by SpeedOfDark***

    ---1cc Creatures (27)
    4 nettle sentinel
    4 heritage druid
    4 birchlore ranger
    4 Quirion Ranger
    4 wirewood symbiote
    3 fyndhorn elves
    4 llanowar elves

    ---2cc Creatures (6)
    3 elvish visionary
    3 priest of titania

    ---4+cc Creatures (2)
    1 regal force
    1 emrakul, the aeons torn

    ---Spells (12)
    4 glimpse of nature
    4 summoner's pact
    4 weird harvest

    ---Mana Base (13)
    13 forests

    ---Sideboard (15)
    *3 relic of progenitus
    *2 vexing shusher
    *4 viridian shaman
    *2 joraga warcaller
    *4 elvish archdruid


    ***GOLDFISH SPEED***
    Out of 50 goldfish (all playing first), these are the results:
    turn 5+: 2%
    turn 4: 16%
    turn 3: 70%
    turn 2: 12%
    turn 1: impossible.
    average turn: 3.08

    Not quite on par with the fastest combo decks, but still pretty damn fast.


    ***CARD CHOICES***

    1cc Creatures:
    Most of these I consider givens. The only I would honestly consider tweaking in numbers are birchlore and llanowar/fyndhorn.

    priest of titania: My reasoning to include her was for a secondary win condition that's almost just as fast as the main combo. With 1 titania and 1 weird harvest, you essentially garuntee a turn 3 win (no glimpse necessary). It works as follows: you produce 7-10 mana turn 3, then play weird harvest with large x and fetch something like:
    1 heritage
    3-4 nettle
    1-4 symbiote
    1 regal force
    OR
    1-3 quirion
    1-3 symbiote
    1 regal force
    OR
    1-3 quirion
    1-3 symbiote
    1 emrakul, the aeons torn

    There's a ton of combinations that will work depending on what you have, but the main idea is to ramp up to regal force, draw 10-20 cards, and then combo as you usually would, or just to ramp up to emrakul and skip the regal force altogether.

    regal force: This guy is nothing short of awesome. He has saved me from fizzling mid combo through pact on countless occasions. Without him, the titania+weird harvest combo would not work most of the time, and often if you have regal+titania in your hand, you can hard cast him on turn 3.

    emrakul, the aeons torn: At first this was just a silly idea for shits and giggles, but it actually speeds up the deck (my version) by a little bit. When I was testing with grapeshot, it almost never happened for me to use it without the full combo, but it happened more than once that I was able to hard cast emrakul for the win where I couldn't combo off.

    weird harvest: Has worked extremely well so far. First, no other tutor can give you such a fuel boost mid combo, it works almost just as well as regal force in this respect. And its nature as a tutor helps with consistency in general. If x is large enough (with or without titania), its possible to use it as a win condition.


    ---

    ***Comments on NO/prog***
    I’ll admit my main reasons for omitting the combo revolve mostly around personal taste and budgetary concerns, however there are some challenges with the concept that don’t sit well with me. Of course its main strength is inevitability, namely the semi-impossible challenge of dealing with prog, however it does have several weaknesses:
    -10-15% chance that prog will end up in your hand before you can cast NO.
    -fairly slow: turn 4-5 win at best
    -circle of protection: red, perish
    -since you have no disruption, wasted card slots against combo or any decent player with FoW.

    ---


    Anyways, let me know what cards have worked well for you and why, post a decklist if you have one, and feel free to criticize my card choices. Elves ftw! :D
    Last edited by SpeedOfDark; 04-24-2010 at 11:58 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    1) Wierd Harvest is overkill. You're paying 4 mana to find 2 creatures. Sylvan Messenger can more elf cards, is a creature that triggers Glimpse, and is tutorable with Summoner's Pact.

    2) Replace forests with Land Grant - yes yes, it's possible that you can lose when your opponent counters it on the first turn, but in practice they're more worried about Glimpse than countering Land Grant. This effectively lets you play 4 less Forests, and is a spell in case you need more storm.

    3) Elvish Spirit Guide might be useful here as a 2-of, to help fuel your combo out faster. It's still an Elf.

    4) I run my list with an Archdruid in the maindeck, and 4 Elvish Champions in the board to bring in against Goyf decks with counters; which allows me to go into beatdown mode. These are superior to Joruga War Caller in that he gives Forest walk.

    5) Vexing Shusher is a good call for either maindeck and/or SB. This allows you to win in corner cases against Chalice/CB-top.
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    1) Wierd Harvest is overkill. You're paying 4 mana to find 2 creatures. Sylvan Messenger can more elf cards, is a creature that triggers Glimpse, and is tutorable with Summoner's Pact.
    The problem I find with sylvan messenger is this: he is good IF you have glimpse, but when you have glimpse, you usually don't need a lot of help. If you don't have glimpse, he's not helping you, whereas weird harvest could make you win the game if you can get x large enough (often you can).

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    2) Replace forests with Land Grant - yes yes, it's possible that you can lose when your opponent counters it on the first turn, but in practice they're more worried about Glimpse than countering Land Grant. This effectively lets you play 4 less Forests, and is a spell in case you need more storm.
    Interesting, I might try that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    3) Elvish Spirit Guide might be useful here as a 2-of, to help fuel your combo out faster. It's still an Elf.
    Yeah, I considered this before. When I tested it, I didn't have much luck with it, but I'll admit I didn't test it much.

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    4) I run my list with an Archdruid in the maindeck, and 4 Elvish Champions in the board to bring in against Goyf decks with counters; which allows me to go into beatdown mode. These are superior to Joruga War Caller in that he gives Forest walk.
    I like this idea a lot, I hadn't considered forest walk. And since zoo is so present in most metas, this is probably a good call.

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    5) Vexing Shusher is a good call for either maindeck and/or SB. This allows you to win in corner cases against Chalice/CB-top.
    Intersting. Yeah, I think this beats my sideboard tools as well. Viridian zealot looks pretty meek compared to the shusher.

  4. #4
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    I'd figure you would want to play a few Gaea's Cradle in this, but I guess not. My argument was going to be.. why not add Trops since your opponent is going to Waste your Cradles anyway but you don't run cradles. Why not?

    I'm suggesting Trops because it allows you to run Mystical Tutor, which allows you to find Glimpse. I've played some Glimpse.dec in my day and its an amazing card. It works the best when you play 5-8 via Mystical Tutor. It can also find you Summoner's Pact, or your Win Condition.

  5. #5
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    If you start a thread, might at least bother with a write-up about the most relevant options not included and such. And assessments as to why what works works. And overall, useful contents. Anyways, my take on Combo Elves (or rather, some sort of unholy combination of combo elves and aggro elves and jank):

    // Lands
    5 [U] Forest (1)
    4 [A] Taiga
    4 [GP] Stomping Ground
    1 [LG] Pendelhaven

    // Creatures
    3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
    2 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
    2 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
    1 [EVE] Regal Force
    4 [A] Llanowar Elves
    4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
    1 [JU] Anger
    4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
    3 [M10] Elvish Visionary
    2 [US] Priest of Titania
    1 [10E] Elvish Champion
    1 [FD] Eternal Witness
    1 [CFX] Progenitus
    1 [DS] Wiridian Zealot
    3 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
    1 [LRW] Masked Admirers

    // Spells
    2 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
    4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
    3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
    3 [VI] Natural Order

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
    SB: 2 [10E] Elvish Champion
    SB: 1 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
    SB: 1 [VI] Natural Order
    SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 1 [PT] Fire Imp
    SB: 1 [MR] Viridian Shaman
    SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
    SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte


    Few words: Forest-count was simply too high to go off with any more than 14, so ESGs are a necessary evil. Summoner's Pacts are meh, but they're good for what they do. Natural Order fuels the combo-kill just fine by just NO -> Regal Forceing, and having access to Priest/Druid and Nettle/Druid means you have multiple ways to threaten going nuts.

    Progenitus is by far the most important tool I found though since many decks are quite able to keep you from going off (discard, removal, counters, etc.), but this usually means they spend their turns stopping you as opposed to advancing their own gameplan so a quick 10/10 Pro-You is just what you want. Dodges Counterbalance nicely too. Side it out vs. e.g. Storm, of course, but whenever you are dealing with resistance, it's good (Zoo, Black Disruption, Countertop, etc.). Survival allows discarding it, which means that's not really a problem, and Survival also allows comboing after a fashion, though if you want to, you can add white for Mirror Entity to enable true combo with it. Requires fetches tho.

    Basically, you have Glimpse-engine for speedy combo, Survival for combo support (particularly, Haste) and grinding, and Natural Order for win or Draw Lots. Solid pack of engines with secondary beatdown plan with Summoner's -> Elvish Champion. As a bonus, Survival removes the need for a kill card as you can just discard Anger and swing for the win. Masked Admirers was chosen over Squee as it's much better whenever you don't have Survival (acting as expensive Visionary for card grinding) and enables one-turn comboing with Survival. Oh, and the manabase? I avoided fetches to ignore Stifle. It can be annoying in such a landlight deck. Waste isn't so bad since your plays usually produce mana so Waste tends to put the opponent behind.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 04-14-2010 at 11:21 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    My advise: Go play the NO + Progenitus engine, works great when i used it. Also try substituting grapeshot with banefire ;).

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    There's a pretty large number of possible wincons for elves that might be discussed in a primer.
    Mirror Entity+Wirewood Symbiote+Heritage Druid
    Grapeshot or Brain Freeze
    Predator Dragon
    Natural Order/Progenitus

    And some crazier ones:
    Umbral Mantle/Staff of Domination+Priest of Titania/Rofellos
    Wild Pair
    Shared Animosity

    Have you considered Chrome Mox? No Summoning Trap in a deck full of creatures that could plausibly hardcast it?

  8. #8
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    How does Mirror Entity+Wirewood Symbiote+Hermitage Druid work? It can't go infinite on its own (unless you're implying you have at least a Nettle Sentinel in that pile. I think you can go infinite with that. I know Mirror Entity+Wirewood Sybiote+Priest of Titania is self sufficient, giving you infinite storm If you toss another elf in there, you can go inifinite).

    Also: Tendrils of Agony over Grapeshot. I'm going to be giving that a shot. The reason being it halves the storm count you need for lethal. It also gives you a little bit of a breather; fire off a Tendrils for 4-6 and swing. If that doesn't kill them, you could have enough life to survive their counter and swing for the win next turn(aggro/aggro-control. Obviously control/combo would work a bit differently, though the life gain could be relevant against some combo decks).

  9. #9

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    How does Mirror Entity+Wirewood Symbiote+Hermitage Druid work?
    You're right - you'd need a Nettle Sentinel, another Wirewood Symbiote, or a creature that taps for 2 or more.

    If you can activate the Mirror Entity before you tap the priest, then it counts the Symbiote, and you net +1 mana per cycle.

  10. #10

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    I think that a good starting point for any thread on combo elves in legacy should begin with the elves list found in the following article, and then explain what different choices should be made, and why:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...of_Legacy.html

  11. #11
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Hey guys,

    I'm getting the impression from many of you that you would like to see an OP reflecting a broader view of the archetype (and not just my personal deck-building idiosyncracies :P). The reason its not shaped like a primer is partly because I mostly made the post to learn about the archetype, opposed to share knowledge I claimed to have, and partly because I lost my OP to an IE error so I had to write the whole thing twice.

    However, I agree to expand it into a bigger primer-ish OP, but you guys will have to give me at least until tomorrow (after my exam) before I add some more generic content ;p

    @Grumpollion: thx for the decklist, I will add it to the OP shortly. If anyone else has similar sources of popular or well preforming decklists, feel free to post them :)

    EDIT: random comments:
    -trops + mystical tutor is interesting, had never thought of that. Seems like a fairly clean way to play extra glimpses.
    -gaea's cradle actually ends up being a lot less useful than you would intuitively think in this deck. And from my experience its occasional usefulness is overshadowed by its occasional inconvenience (aka 1 land hands that could go off turn 3, but unfortunately that 1 land is gaea). It might barely make the cut by its own merits, but in a format with a lot of nonbasic land hate, it's probably better to drop it.
    -imo the win cons are betwen the 3 storm spells mentioned (and I find brainfreeze to be the weakest). Most of the other ones strike me as cuteness. Although banefire might be worth something in a deck that uses cradles or titania (since when you get 20 storm count, you often can make 20+ mana anyways).
    -staff+titania is neat, but personally I've found that in this deck (and others), titania+weird harvest can win faster and weird harvest by itself has a lot more versatility than staff.

  12. #12
    Faerie Godfather

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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    It's mostly that if you're going to open a generic "Elves Combo"-thread, it's expected to discuss "Elves Combo" in general, not just a specific build.

  13. #13
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    It's mostly that if you're going to open a generic "Elves Combo"-thread, it's expected to discuss "Elves Combo" in general, not just a specific build.
    Well, the title was mostly a "for lack of a better title" thing. But I do see your point, and it does make sense (I'm relatively new to mtgthesource). I will update the OP tomorrow ;)

  14. #14

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Part of the issue is that the search function has (apparently) gone to pot so its much harder to find old stuff.

  15. #15
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Ok, so I redid the OP entirely. There is still more content I'd like to add, for example another popular list more recent than the one posted. But I'll get to that later.

    :D

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Elfball is the deck woth whom I played the most in legacy. In France, we used to consider elfball as a DTB, in the tier one. Some French players brought it to GP Madrid. I think that this reveals the potential of the deck for thoses who would remain sceptic.

    Here is a link to a french site where you'll be able to find some optimized lists :
    http://www.legacy-france.com/Elves-C...gro-t2023.html
    Please don't take into account the first lists, that were created before elfball (and the nettle/heritage combo was known), and are therefore obsolete.

    First, there is at first view a huge error in your deck : the kill. Mirror entity is far away better than grapeshot. There is even no debate. The aggro game plan which is how you'll win at least 50% of your games is so much improved by this card.

    Also : titania is very bad... I mean, it don't have haste and costs two... test without, you'll see.

    We still argue on the mana base : some play fetchs adn/or duals, others (like me) only forest. Craddle is also very played with crop rotation.
    In my opinion, running only forests is enough, and don't expose you don't mana denial.

    Here is the list I play (sideboard not optimized) :
    -5 llanowar elves
    -4 Birchlore
    -4 Symbiote
    -4 Sentinelle
    -4 Heritage druid
    -3 Quirion ranger
    -4 Hivemaster
    -4 Visionnary
    -1 Mirror entity
    -1 Regal force

    -4 Glimpse
    -4 Pact
    -3 Chord

    -15 forest

    Side :
    3 choke
    1 magus of the moon
    1 Imperious perfect
    1 lord
    3 natural order
    1 proge
    1 dauntless escort
    3 relic/tormod
    Forgive my bad English...

  17. #17
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Hi frenchy-man,

    Fortunately for me, french is actually my first language, so when I have time I will go through the thread carefully. I'm sure there is a lot of information I have yet to learn about the archetype, since I'm fairly new to it.

    Merci beaucoup ;)

  18. #18

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    de rien ;)
    Forgive my bad English...

  19. #19
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    The Menendian list from 2009 in the OP is nearly optimal and almost my exact list card for card. However, I would recommend some number of Horizon Canopy and a Pedelhaven in some of the Forest spots . Horizon Canopy is an excellent way to squeeze extra utility out the deck for a reasonable disadvantage. Pedelhaven is to mise you out against Grim Lavamancer which absolutely owns your ass hands down no questions asked gg. Other than that the list is immaculate. I would maybe like another Regal Force or some other mass card draw, but there is hardly room. Ive tried a single Sylvan Messenger to bounce around with Symbiotes with moderate success, but I cant say anything conclusive. A 1 of Vexing SHusher in the main is also interesting, but I havent tried it yet.

    My current thoughts have been how to properly sideboard with this thing. What can you afford to sideboard out and what do you need to survive a legacy metagame? I see problems with countermagic because green hardly has ways to deal with disruption, Countertop and Chalice at 1 ruining your day, and getting bombed on by Firespout/Pyroclasm, and EE for 1. Umezawa's Jitte is also a huge pain in the ass. I guess Plague would be bad too, but Plague is waning in popularity so we have that going for us.

    Options to fight countermagic:
    Vexing Shusher: Tutorable, uncounterable, makes all your dudes and spells uncounterable, mana intensive but this deck has mana.
    Leyline of Lifeforce-uncounterable, costs 0 if you have it in your opening, blanks all Force of Will/Daze action on your mana critters and Regal Force. Does not help resolve Pact or Glimpse which kinda sucks. At 4cc its still realistic to hardcast with the amount of mana this deck has.
    Summoner's Trap-Ameliorates a single piece countermagic for 0. Not completely unreasonable to hardcast at 6cc.
    Gaea's Herald-Tutorable way to fight countermagic on your dudes.
    Guttoreal Response-Negates a piece of countermagic for G. Does help resolve Pact/Glimpse in the face of FoW.

    Options to fight counterbalance/Chalice
    Vexing Shusher-same as before
    Krosan Grip-derp
    Leyline of Lifeforce-Costs 0 and blanks chalice/counterbalance on your dudes. Glimpse and Pact are still sad.
    Summoner's Trap-Costs 0 and makes a one time way around Chalice/Balance. With enough disenchant dudes (Zealot/Shaman) in your deck this may be a solid way to find and play your removal.
    Gaea's Herald-Tutorable, counterable, negates Chalice at 1, still vulnerable to Counterbalance, less mana intensive than Shusher.
    Viridian Shaman/Zealot-Tutorable, count as creatures, have bodies, is a creature, can be found with Pact, etc.

    Options against Firespout/Pyroclasm:
    Multiple Lords - you have to play lords and still get owned by firespout
    Gempalm Strider - only gets pyroclasm, costs friggin 4, uncounterable, tutorable.
    Bubble Matrix- one of my favorites from back when Snake Basket was type 2 legal. Stops clasms and burn, and gives you dominating board position against conventional aggro decks. Its really a pet card of mine so its hard to know if its actually playable.
    ????-seriously there has to be better options. Some kind of green instant spell that prevents damage to all creatures for the turn idk.

    Options against EE:
    Krosan Grip
    Pithing Needle
    Viridian Shaman/Zealot (sorta)

    Options against Jitte:
    Grip
    Needle
    Viridian Shaman

    Options against Grim Lavamancer:
    Pithing Needle-die in hell stupid red wizard please dont have pridemage
    Bubble Matrix?
    More Pendelhavens

    If I were to start my sideboard I think I would include: Vexing Shusher/Leyline/Trap, and some number of Pithing Needles and Krosan Grips because those cover multiple things which are bad for you. Id also maybe look at 1 ofs of Gaea's Herald, Strider, and Zealot should they prove worthy and take a non joking look at Bubble Matrix as an option against Burn and Earthquakes.

    I know Im probably missing some good cards but gatherer is nearly unsearchable now and its hard to find tech.
    info.ninja

  20. #20
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    hmm, interesting ideas sockmonkey. I'm especially intrigued by the leyline of lifeforce and bubble matrix, both of which I had not considered and wasn't really aware of their existance ;p

    Pendelhaven too should probably be added in the common cards section as a 1-2 of. The only actual drawback is that it doesn't synergize with quirion and gets hit by nonbasic land hate, but I think it more than makes up for it.

    Btw, just as an fyi there is a recent (but off color) rehash of bubble matrix: mark of asylum.

    interesting cards for clasm/spout effects:
    Wrap in Vigor
    caller of the claw

    I think I will update my OP and add a sideboard section soon, because there is a lot of stuff to consider, and it might actually prove to be more difficult than the building of the actual deck.

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