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Thread: [Deck] Elves Combo

  1. #2421
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Pithing Needle doesn't do anything to Gempalm Incinerator.

  2. #2422

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    I feel like intrinsically, not playing 4 maindeck Wirewood Symbiote is a mistake. It's the deck's strongest creature by far.
    That's the reason Living Wish just isn't as strong of a build. Summoner's Pact hits redundant cards that you need to get to get there. If you're that worried about not finding emrakul, do what I do, run a singleton Fierce Empath. I'm almost blown away that every mono green list doesn't run him.

    He's an important factor in many ways, and with 8 cards to tutor him, himself, and emrakul, it's like having 10 copies of emrakul in the deck.

    At the moment, I wouldn't change a card in my list, it combos out at turn 3 with amazing consistency and it's -fast-. Speed is important to the combo, you get worn out doing that much math that quickly, it burns you out mentally. Fierce Empath turns a 10 minute turn into a 4 minute turn. Hit 18 mana? Pact for Empath, Emrakul, next turn, tap for trigger, swing, dead. The biggest problem I used to have was taking forever to just find emrakul and occasionally fizzling while trying to get to him. To this day, since adding a singleton Fierce Empath, I've had a 0% fizzle rate and my goldfish by turn 3 is higher than it's ever been.

    Living Wish slows you down, and the many circumstances where you look at your available mana and say "If I could drop a nettle sentinel right now and win" and realize Living Wish for a Nettle Sentinel would just cost too much to pull it off..

    In gold-fishing, living wish probably looks really sweet, but when you play against real people, who actually kill things and know what threats to hit, your turn 1 or 2 play is often dead--your turn 3 is almost never "I wasn't disturbed for 2 turns so I get to win now."

    If your opponent doesn't do shit to you for two turns while you do something like Llanowar, go > Priest, Llanowar, go > turn 3 win--you win no matter what. But under circumstances like Llanowar, it gets bolted, shit, go > Llanowar, Heritage Druid, go > your turn 3 is a lot weaker. You can't tap that Llanowar to produce mana because you need it for heritage druid--what does Living Wish do for you now? Pact on the other hand lets you drop a Glimpse, Nettle Sentinel, tap for 3 mana > Begin the winning process.

    That's not even like that farfetched of a situation, and that's why I genuinely don't understand the fascination with Living Wish, it's slow as hell, it makes your sideboard genuinely bad, and it only gives you one real tutor. I can't even count how many times I've burnt 3 summoner's pacts in one turn fetching Wirewood Symbiote's to repeatedly untap a Priest of Titania for the win--Living Wish won't do that and it's a terrible means of finding Emrakul. Fierce Empath costs one more, is an elf, is tutorable, and fetches emrakul OR regal force for you in the event you already have emrakul but don't have the mana to cast him yet.

    Living Wish is just bad.

  3. #2423
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    That's the reason Living Wish just isn't as strong of a build. Summoner's Pact hits redundant cards that you need to get to get there. If you're that worried about not finding emrakul, do what I do, run a singleton Fierce Empath. I'm almost blown away that every mono green list doesn't run him.

    He's an important factor in many ways, and with 8 cards to tutor him, himself, and emrakul, it's like having 10 copies of emrakul in the deck.

    At the moment, I wouldn't change a card in my list, it combos out at turn 3 with amazing consistency and it's -fast-. The biggest problem I used to have was taking forever to just find emrakul and occasionally fizzling while trying to get to him. To this day, since adding a singleton Fierce Empath, I've had a 0% fizzle rate and my goldfish by turn 3 is higher than it's ever been.

    Living Wish slows you down, and the many circumstances where you look at your available mana and say "If I could drop a nettle sentinel right now and win" and realize Living Wish for a Nettle Sentinel would just cost too much to pull it off..

    In gold-fishing, living wish probably looks really sweet, but when you play against real people, who actually kill things and know what threats to hit, your turn 1 or 2 play is often dead--your turn 3 is almost never "I wasn't disturbed for 2 turns so I get to win now."

    If your opponent doesn't do shit to you for two turns while you do something like Llanowar, go > Priest, Llanowar, go > turn 3 win--you win no matter what. But under circumstances like Llanowar, it gets bolted, shit, go > Llanowar, Heritage Druid, go > your turn 3 is a lot weaker. You can't tap that Llanowar to produce mana because you need it for heritage druid--what does Living Wish do for you now? Pact on the other hand lets you drop a Glimpse, Nettle Sentinel, tap for 3 mana > Begin the winning process.

    That's not even like that farfetched of a situation, and that's why I genuinely don't understand the fascination with Living Wish, it's slow as hell, it makes your sideboard genuinely bad, and it only gives you one real tutor. I can't even count how many times I've burnt 3 summoner's pacts in one turn fetching Wirewood Symbiote's to repeatedly untap a Priest of Titania for the win--Living Wish won't do that and it's a terrible means of finding Emrakul. Fierce Empath costs one more, is an elf, is tutorable, and fetches emrakul OR regal force for you in the event you already have emrakul but don't have the mana to cast him yet.

    Living Wish is just bad.
    Could you please post your list? I agree with you on a lot of points and would like to compare.

  4. #2424

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostGrown View Post
    Pithing Needle doesn't do anything to Gempalm Incinerator.
    Actually it does. Pithing Needle is able to stop cards from being cycled.

  5. #2425
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostGrown View Post
    Pithing Needle doesn't do anything to Gempalm Incinerator.
    Well, based on the FAQs from both cards:

    Pithing Needle:

    "6/1/2005: Pithing Needle affects cards regardless of what zone they're in. This includes cards in hand, cards in the graveyard, and exiled cards. For example, a player can't cycle Eternal Dragon or return an Eternal Dragon from his or her graveyard to hand if Pithing Needle naming Eternal Dragon is on the battlefield."

    Gempalm Incinerator:

    "10/1/2008: Cycling is an activated ability. Effects that interact with activated abilities (such as Stifle or Rings of Brighthearth) will interact with cycling. Effects that interact with spells (such as Remove Soul or Faerie Tauntings) will not."

    Therefore, Pithing Needle will interact with Gempalm Incinerator's Cycling, in spite of Gempalm being in a player's hand, since Cycling is itself an activated ability.

  6. #2426

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostGrown View Post
    Could you please post your list? I agree with you on a lot of points and would like to compare.
    Yep, here it is:

    //Creatures:
    1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    1x Elvish Archdruid
    2x Priest of Titania

    1x Regal Force
    1x Fierce Empath
    1x Viridian Shaman
    3x Elvish Visionary

    4x Wirewood Symbiote
    2x Quirion Ranger

    3x Birchlore Rangers
    4x Llanowar Elves
    1x Fyndhorn Elves
    1x Arbor Elf
    4x Heritage Druid
    4x Nettle Sentinel

    //Spells:
    4x Glimpse of Nature
    4x Summoner's Pact
    4x Green Sun's Zenith

    //Lands: 15
    1x Gaea's Cradle
    1x Pendelhaven
    13x Forest

    //Sideboard: 15
    3x Faerie Macabre
    3x Grafdigger's Cage
    3x Carpet of Flowers
    3x Vengevine
    3x Surgical Extraction

    This runs beautifully and is the best version of the deck I've ever run. The sideboard is experimental--it pretty much addresses the only things I care about: the Reanimator / dredge match up, blue tempo matchups, and times I need to go on the aggressive. I haven't actually tried it out yet, that just seems to make the most sense to me.

    Surgical Extraction seems like a good answer to opposing combo decks, green really isn't the best at this sort of thing though. Maybe Thorn of Amethyst? Seems too slow, I'd rather remove key pieces at instant speed. I think I'll stick with that sideboard for now unless someone has a better idea for combo matchups.

    The maindeck however, is the same maindeck I've been using since.. about the time I brought up Fierce Empath and made a similar argument against living wish quite awhile ago. Since then I haven't really played Elves competitively, but it remains the deck that I'm most comfortable playing and is definitely the deck I'm best at playing. There's something really rewarding about being able to play something complicated very well .

  7. #2427
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Thorn of Amethysts has always been half a turn too slow whenever I ran it. Best case, they don't go off or disrupt you on turn 1, and you slow them down enough to aggro/combo them out. Worst case, it gets nabbed by Thoughtseize/Duress and you lose the next turn.

    I like Surgical however. I might utilize your SB Kich867, and see how that works out.
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  8. #2428
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Whats the point of the Pendelhaven? Going on the aggressive without a lord? Or is it for the defense?

  9. #2429
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    Yep, here it is:

    //Creatures:
    1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    1x Elvish Archdruid
    2x Priest of Titania

    1x Regal Force
    1x Fierce Empath
    1x Viridian Shaman
    3x Elvish Visionary

    4x Wirewood Symbiote
    2x Quirion Ranger

    3x Birchlore Rangers
    4x Llanowar Elves
    1x Fyndhorn Elves
    1x Arbor Elf
    4x Heritage Druid
    4x Nettle Sentinel

    //Spells:
    4x Glimpse of Nature
    4x Summoner's Pact
    4x Green Sun's Zenith

    //Lands: 15
    1x Gaea's Cradle
    1x Pendelhaven
    13x Forest

    //Sideboard: 15
    3x Faerie Macabre
    3x Grafdigger's Cage
    3x Carpet of Flowers
    3x Vengevine
    3x Surgical Extraction

    This runs beautifully and is the best version of the deck I've ever run. The sideboard is experimental--it pretty much addresses the only things I care about: the Reanimator / dredge match up, blue tempo matchups, and times I need to go on the aggressive. I haven't actually tried it out yet, that just seems to make the most sense to me.

    Surgical Extraction seems like a good answer to opposing combo decks, green really isn't the best at this sort of thing though. Maybe Thorn of Amethyst? Seems too slow, I'd rather remove key pieces at instant speed. I think I'll stick with that sideboard for now unless someone has a better idea for combo matchups.

    The maindeck however, is the same maindeck I've been using since.. about the time I brought up Fierce Empath and made a similar argument against living wish quite awhile ago. Since then I haven't really played Elves competitively, but it remains the deck that I'm most comfortable playing and is definitely the deck I'm best at playing. There's something really rewarding about being able to play something complicated very well .
    Grafdigger's Cage stops your Zeniths and Vengevines. Why don't you play Fauna Shaman?

  10. #2430

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostGrown View Post
    Whats the point of the Pendelhaven? Going on the aggressive without a lord? Or is it for the defense?
    Honestly, it's tech against Grim Lavamancer's. There was a game where someone dropped that turn one and made my life hell. It's been incredibly useful. Occasionally someone will forget about it and swing me assuming I won't trade and forget about pendelhaven. It's also sweet VS goblins trying to get a lackey through.

    In general, it's better than a normal forest. If people want to wasteland it, be my guest. But the main purpose is to stop Grim Lavamancers.

    In regards to Grafdigger's Cage--like I said, that isn't my sideboard it was just the things that came to mind because my sideboard at the moment is a garbled mess of testing stuff. Replace them with Tormod's Crypts. I'll update it.

  11. #2431

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    I just like to point out that I participated in my monthly tournament for the last two months and have completed quite successfully, 14th out of 119 and 9th of 109, not entering the top in both tournaments by losing to the same Mud player (chalice of the void).

    My list has Vengevine and Fauna main, and natural order as a sideboard plan, and I have to say it's a real blast to play. Vengevine wins so many games, and people do not expect the Progenitus of second match, winning 90% of second games.

    If I have time and hang a mini-report.

    regards.

  12. #2432
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Christoffer Andersen made 5th/8th at Starcitygames Legacy Series: Cincinnati

    MD
    4 Forest
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Savannah
    2 Gaea's Cradle
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Pendelhaven
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Dryad Arbor

    4 Elvish Visionary
    4 Heritage Druid
    4 Wirewood Symbiote
    4 Nettle Sentinel
    3 Birchlore Rangers
    3 Fyndhorn Elves
    2 Priest of Titania
    2 Quirion Ranger
    2 Mirror Entity
    2 Llanowar Elves
    1 Regal Force
    1 Qasali Pridemage

    4 Glimpse of Nature
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Chord of Calling
    1 Crop Rotation

    SIDEBOARD
    4 Faerie Macabre
    1 Viridian Shaman
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Mortarpod
    3 Absolute Law
    3 Choke
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Fecundity

    I'm curious about Fecundity and Jitte in SB. I like the white splash but i don't have Savannah and fetchlans.

  13. #2433
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    That's the reason Living Wish just isn't as strong of a build. Summoner's Pact hits redundant cards that you need to get to get there. If you're that worried about not finding emrakul, do what I do, run a singleton Fierce Empath. I'm almost blown away that every mono green list doesn't run him.

    He's an important factor in many ways, and with 8 cards to tutor him, himself, and emrakul, it's like having 10 copies of emrakul in the deck.

    At the moment, I wouldn't change a card in my list, it combos out at turn 3 with amazing consistency and it's -fast-. Speed is important to the combo, you get worn out doing that much math that quickly, it burns you out mentally. Fierce Empath turns a 10 minute turn into a 4 minute turn. Hit 18 mana? Pact for Empath, Emrakul, next turn, tap for trigger, swing, dead. The biggest problem I used to have was taking forever to just find emrakul and occasionally fizzling while trying to get to him. To this day, since adding a singleton Fierce Empath, I've had a 0% fizzle rate and my goldfish by turn 3 is higher than it's ever been.

    Living Wish slows you down, and the many circumstances where you look at your available mana and say "If I could drop a nettle sentinel right now and win" and realize Living Wish for a Nettle Sentinel would just cost too much to pull it off..

    In gold-fishing, living wish probably looks really sweet, but when you play against real people, who actually kill things and know what threats to hit, your turn 1 or 2 play is often dead--your turn 3 is almost never "I wasn't disturbed for 2 turns so I get to win now."

    If your opponent doesn't do shit to you for two turns while you do something like Llanowar, go > Priest, Llanowar, go > turn 3 win--you win no matter what. But under circumstances like Llanowar, it gets bolted, shit, go > Llanowar, Heritage Druid, go > your turn 3 is a lot weaker. You can't tap that Llanowar to produce mana because you need it for heritage druid--what does Living Wish do for you now? Pact on the other hand lets you drop a Glimpse, Nettle Sentinel, tap for 3 mana > Begin the winning process.

    That's not even like that farfetched of a situation, and that's why I genuinely don't understand the fascination with Living Wish, it's slow as hell, it makes your sideboard genuinely bad, and it only gives you one real tutor. I can't even count how many times I've burnt 3 summoner's pacts in one turn fetching Wirewood Symbiote's to repeatedly untap a Priest of Titania for the win--Living Wish won't do that and it's a terrible means of finding Emrakul. Fierce Empath costs one more, is an elf, is tutorable, and fetches emrakul OR regal force for you in the event you already have emrakul but don't have the mana to cast him yet.

    Living Wish is just bad.
    Because I don't think the deck is viable right now regardless of how you build it (due to metagame considerations), I haven't been playing Elves much lately, but I'm kind of blown away by how wrong the suppositions here are.

    Like when you said;

    In gold-fishing, living wish probably looks really sweet, but when you play against real people, who actually kill things and know what threats to hit, your turn 1 or 2 play is often dead--your turn 3 is almost never "I wasn't disturbed for 2 turns so I get to win now."
    My immediate thought was that you had to be joking and this had to be satire. Either that or you got your cards confused. Certainly Pact looks better in a goldfish situation because it doesn't cost any mana! If you always get to go off unmolested then Pact is certainly stronger than Wish. It's exactly in the situation where you are dealing with disruption that you would rather have Wish, since it doesn't cost four mana or risk you losing the game.

    I can't even count how many times I've burnt 3 summoner's pacts in one turn fetching Wirewood Symbiote's to repeatedly untap a Priest of Titania for the win--Living Wish won't do that and it's a terrible means of finding Emrakul. Fierce Empath costs one more, is an elf, is tutorable, and fetches emrakul OR regal force for you in the event you already have emrakul but don't have the mana to cast him yet.
    Living Wish doesn't require you to run these bad cards maindeck, so you never have to worry about what to do when you don't have the mana to cast Emrakul, because then you don't Wish for Emrakul. I really can't emphasize enough how wrong you are. The advantage of Wish is having a reliable method to find Emrakul without having to actually draw it when it's dead, or draw a Fierce Empath when it's dead. Or die to disruption on your creatures and spells.
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  14. #2434
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Like, with 4 Wish and a Ranger, Symbiote and Cradle to Wish for it seems ridiculous to say that you're going to have problems with an active Priest and multiple Wishes in hand as in that hypothetical situation. Equally it's ridiculous to say that there's a significant difference between running 3 Symbiote/4 Wish/4 GSZ and 4 Symbiote/4 Pact/4 GSZ. That's an incredibly marginal benefit in terms of likelihood of getting a Sybmiote versus the other advantages offered.
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  15. #2435
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Running any less than 4 Symbiote in the maindeck is the wrong approach. Living Wish should only grab situationally useful cards, or mana sources. Cradle, Emrakul, Regal Force (spotty at best), Viridian Shaman, Quirion Ranger, Bojuka Bog, Gaddock Teeg, etc

    Symbiote and Nettle belong in the maindeck as 4 of with Living Wish. SB you can skimp on 1 of each of the combo pieces to play actual SB cards like Thorns or Vengevine or whathaveyou, and still enabling you to assemble some sort of combo with Wish.
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  16. #2436

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Because I don't think the deck is viable right now regardless of how you build it (due to metagame considerations), I haven't been playing Elves much lately, but I'm kind of blown away by how wrong the suppositions here are.

    Like when you said;

    My immediate thought was that you had to be joking and this had to be satire. Either that or you got your cards confused. Certainly Pact looks better in a goldfish situation because it doesn't cost any mana! If you always get to go off unmolested then Pact is certainly stronger than Wish. It's exactly in the situation where you are dealing with disruption that you would rather have Wish, since it doesn't cost four mana or risk you losing the game.

    Living Wish doesn't require you to run these bad cards maindeck, so you never have to worry about what to do when you don't have the mana to cast Emrakul, because then you don't Wish for Emrakul. I really can't emphasize enough how wrong you are. The advantage of Wish is having a reliable method to find Emrakul without having to actually draw it when it's dead, or draw a Fierce Empath when it's dead. Or die to disruption on your creatures and spells.
    In the nearing a year of my experience playing summoning pact in Elves I have died 0 times to it. Claiming that the risk of dying is at all a consideration is simply wrong.

    Summoner's Pact lets you recover your game state for free, if you're at the point where you're tapping Priests of Titania for mana it's usually that you've already won. Drawing Emrakul is highly unlikely and isn't worth how bad running Living Wish is.

    The most important aspect of elves is the first few turns and how well you can recover. Living wishes are slow, they're mana intensive for when you need them, and keeping emrakul outside the deck is irrelevant. Running a singleton Emrakul main deck versus the one in the board is as statistically insignificant as running your 4th symbiote in the board. That's not even the largest issue. It's the simple fact that Living Wish is worse than summoner's pact in too many situations.

    Situations in which you aren't comboing out with nettle sentinels, living wish sucks, situations in which your board is being remove, living wish sucks, situations in which you need every drop of mana you have in order to eek out a win, living wish sucks, games that you know you need to combo out turn 2 in, living wish sucks.

    Pre combo, living wish is just a bad card. It gives you sort-of-not-really game against Reanimator and Dredge but realistically they won the roll (they always do ) and Iona hit before you could cast it. But on a serious note, the moment they see llanowar elf, go, they entomb blazing archon / iona and force/daze your wish. Reanimator is the -only- scenario where Living Wish maindecks can be good, and the likelihood of it actually working is -so- small.

    It's an inferior card, and your build is worse for it. And then what for game 2 and 3?

    Maybe you could show me what your sideboard looks like and I'd have a better understanding of what your plan is?

    I initially played for months with Living Wish, and as soon as I switched to Pact my consistency skyrocketed. The main deck is super solid and the sideboard can actually be a sideboard again.

    I think the biggest thing that turned me off of Living Wish was.. wishes are usually for when you need a bomb or something, most of the time, I'm looking for redundant copies of things. I tutor for sentinels and visionaries because they give really sick card advantage, I tutor for extra symbiotes to bounce visionaries and get stupid card advantage out of them. Living Wish doesn't get you multiples, drawing into multiple living wishes and not creatures during a combo turn can make some combo turns either not happen without a setup you're guaranteed to win with regardless of what happens or it might just not get there.

    Maybe you're super lucky, but early turns are rarely ideal and 2 mana is a huge, game-breaking deal. The difference between having to combo off with 4 mana available to you and 2 living wish in your hand and 4 mana available to you and 2 summoner's pacts in your hand is absurdly different. Summoner's pact lets you play better under less ideal situations, where you don't have as much mana available to you and you're down on relevant creatures.

  17. #2437
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Living Wish doesn't require you to run these bad cards maindeck, so you never have to worry about what to do when you don't have the mana to cast Emrakul, because then you don't Wish for Emrakul. I really can't emphasize enough how wrong you are. The advantage of Wish is having a reliable method to find Emrakul without having to actually draw it when it's dead, or draw a Fierce Empath when it's dead. Or die to disruption on your creatures and spells.
    Living Wish requires dedicated SB slots and it's a countereable method to find Emrakul. I played with Fierce Empath in MD sometimes helps a lot but sometimes is so clunky that i decide to cut off.

  18. #2438

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by lord182 View Post
    Living Wish requires dedicated SB slots and it's a countereable method to find Emrakul. I played with Fierce Empath in MD sometimes helps a lot but sometimes is so clunky that i decide to cut off.
    I can't think of a situation in which Empath is clunky. Once you can start generating mana you just win, you can actually tutor Emrakul out of your deck. Maybe if your list runs a lot of expensive shit, maybe, I have no idea. My deck has literally 3 CMC 3 creatures: Empath, Archdruid, and Viridian Shaman.

    In case people didn't know: lords aren't that great. They're easy to burn and are slow as hell compared to just winning with Heritage Druid. Untappers aren't as big of a deal in my deck as they are in others, maybe that's part of the reason Living Wish seems silly and useless to me, but you don't need lords to win, you just win with what the actual combo is. Lords can be convenient if they work, but never rely on them.

    Heritage druids have haste, lords don't.

    Being able to counter Living Wish is a non-issue. If they actually held their counter long enough to hit living wish, they'd lose anyways to the swarm on the table.

  19. #2439
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    I can't think of a situation in which Empath is clunky. Once you can start generating mana you just win, you can actually tutor Emrakul out of your deck. Maybe if your list runs a lot of expensive shit, maybe, I have no idea. My deck has literally 3 CMC 3 creatures: Empath, Archdruid, and Viridian Shaman.

    In case people didn't know: lords aren't that great. They're easy to burn and are slow as hell compared to just winning with Heritage Druid. Untappers aren't as big of a deal in my deck as they are in others, maybe that's part of the reason Living Wish seems silly and useless to me, but you don't need lords to win, you just win with what the actual combo is. Lords can be convenient if they work, but never rely on them.

    Heritage druids have haste, lords don't.

    Being able to counter Living Wish is a non-issue. If they actually held their counter long enough to hit living wish, they'd lose anyways to the swarm on the table.
    My list runs the same expensive shit your list runs, i'm glad Fierce Empath work well for you but for me it's clunky.

  20. #2440

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by lord182 View Post
    My list runs the same expensive shit your list runs, i'm glad Fierce Empath work well for you but for me it's clunky.
    Your list is green white with mirror entity..why..would you consider running Fierce Empath to begin with? You don't run the same expensive shit mine does, I'm talking about converted mana cost, not money .

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