Actually, I do remember that example. Mostly because IBA's refutal of it is one of the finer examples of Jack Elgin on the internet (page 65 of this thread for those interested).
Anyhow, the tl,dr version is that no, spending 7 mana on an unprotected 2/2 is not a "GOOD PLAY" against any real deck in the format. And "probably" not losing the game as a direct consequence of said play is not a very compelling argument in its favor.
Why yes, I have played around with the Extended ports. Being about half a turn faster is pretty moot when the only deck in the format unable to consistently disrupt the goldfish is Belcher. Which is also why the sentiment that the deck needs to be built with a strong mid to lategame independent of Glimpse comes up time and again.Have you played with four pacts and made combo priority one? Try it, it's incredible. I've tested GSZ and it just makes the deck more stable at the cost of speed, and in elves, slowing the deck down is riskier than pact is.
I mean I don't really want to get into this ol' debate again. I know from twelve years of elves it's a good idea, and I think Greg's finishes back me up as well. I really don't understand how so many good players are so afraid of pact, it's very easy to play safely. It's just cause the card has the words "lose the game" on it that everyone runs away. We can do this! We are competent elves players! Let's utilize the advantage!
another reason because GSZ is superior to Pact is Ethersworn Canonist.
Canonist disrupts the Glimpse & Vengevine plans so it's a necessity to get rid of it.
GSZ -> Viridian Shaman. Summoner's Pact -> V.Shaman doesn't work obviously
Because I play NOProg in my SB and side it in against decks playing E.Canonist anyway, this doesn' matter THAT much, but that hate bear is always a pain in the ass.
I think I lost nearly all matches against a Canonist that wasn't handled in time.
It basically comes down to this: if there is no disruption, pact is 100% superior to GSZ. So, the question is:
Does the advantage that GSZ gives us against disruption outweigh the speed advantage that Summoner's Pact gives us?
I say no, others say yes. Individual choice I guess.
So tuesday I decided to try and play Elves for the first time at my local legacy tourney. So I bought the cards I needed and sleeved it up.
Round 1 VS TES (Lost 2-1)
Game 1: I combo before he does on turn 2 or 3.
Boarded in 3 Thorn of Amethyst
Game 2 and 3 I can't find my Thorn and he combo off turn 2 or 3.
Round 2 VS UB Stax (Won 2-0)
Game 1: He kept a bad hand I combo him out before he can play a single card.
Boarded in 2 Krosan Grip
Game 2: He kept a hand with a Cursed totem but he kept drawing lands. I killed him with an onslaught of elves.
Round 3 VS BUG Control (Won 2-1)
Game 1: He kept me from combo-ing, at one point I forgot to pay for my pact, he points it out and I lose. (I'm terrible!)
Boarded in 3 Carpet Flowers
Game 2: He keeps me from combo-ing off and uses Damnation twice. I took him down to 3 life. I eventually hard-casted Emrakul with 7 forest, Llanowar Elf and Carpet of flowers while he had 7 islands.
Game 3: He kept a shaky hands and was struggling to find his lands. I baited his Counterspells. I resolved glimpse with 3 Pacts in hand.
Round 4 VS Goblins (Won 2-0)
Game 1: I combo the turn he fetched for his Goblin Sharpshooter.
Boarded in 2 Steely resolve.
Game 2: He resolved a Goblin Sharpshooter. I had one turn left before losing all of my elfs. I drew my Steely resolve and named Elf. I comboed the turn after.
Finished 5th off a 12-14 people tourney.
I used a list without Wishes or NO-Prog. Just straight out combo.
Suggested wishboards. 2 options that I see viable.
Option one: Minimal graveyard hate. We can outrun dredge pretty well, so the question is if it's worth the spots for reanimator or if it's better to have 3 shushers and steely resolves instead of 2 each. If we do, to compensate I put Bojuka Bog in since it's the best 1-off graveyard hate for the wishboard I think.
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Steely Resolve
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Korsan Grip
Option 2: More graveyard hate and one less shusher and steely resolve (-1 shusher, -1 steely resolve, -1 bojuka bog, +2 grafdigger's cage, +1 Faerie Macabre:
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Karakas
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Steely Resolve
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Korsan Grip
Thoughts?
In my recent playtest i found that i win more game in aggro mode than in combo mode...
Maybe it's due to a problem of design of my list...i'd appreciate any advice on it:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
8 [LRW] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
// Creatures
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [EVE] Regal Force
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [M11] Elvish Archdruid
4 [U] Llanowar Elves
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [M10] Elvish Visionary
1 [SOM] Ezuri, Renegade Leader
// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [RAV] Chord of Calling
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Viridian Shaman
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [LE] Caller of the Claw
Thx you all!
It seems to be partially a function of how you've built your deck. Higher land count, GSZ and Chord of Calling in place of Summoner's Pact and Living Wish. Pact and Wish work well with Glimpse of Nature, as they result in you casting the creature, and getting the trigger. Pact also costs less mana up-front, giving you more flexibility in comboing. Sure, you have to pay mana next upkeep, but when you've got 20 creatures on the board and an extra turn from Emrakul, who cares?
Your list just looks like it very often ends what would be a combo turn with a medium GSZ or Chord for Ezuri, and then attacks with a few "Overrun"-enabled elves.
It may also be a function of the metagame you're playing in; if they're playing a lot of counterspells like Spell Pierce, you're probably just finding it easy to beat down with Elves. If you were playing against Maverick more often, you'd be comboing off, since you're not getting a few of Elves past a wall of Knight of the Reliquary, etc.
Anyone tested Creeping Renaissance in the board to fight sweepers?
I've played fecundity in the board to be one win away from top 8-ing and SCG open. I liked it, but the lack of tutorability made it hard. I distinctly remember dropping that against death and taxes when I had a shit hand and only llanowars out, and the guy swept and handed me the combo next turn. That was sweet.
Have you thought about using compost as hate for Reanimator and dredge instead of GY hate? Might be enough, and could help against other decks too.
On combo match up: Could Root Maze replase thorn of amethist?
I've tested Root Maze and it's alot like Trinisphere in those stompy decks that used to be so popular. When you drop it on the first turn and it gets to do its thing, it's pretty nice. Otherwise it's a dead card and when you draw it anytime after the first turn you will wish, so hard, that it was just a simple elf.
Root maze was a cornerstone in stompy decks long before Trinisphere was printed ;)
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Ya I mean generally this deck's best defense against the speed of other decks is to just go faster ourselves. It's not usually worth diluting the combo to play cards like root maze and thorn.
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