I don't even know if there is a good solution to Terminus. I think just playing really grindy, not getting eager to win on the spot, is the way to beat the MU. If they play CB though, we have to go for it pretty early. 1 Viridian Zealot seems pretty reasonable to play in the MD, if the meta contains GW (Jitte), Stoneblade (Jitte) and UW Miracles (CB). White splash for Gaddock Teeg is also an option vs Terminus.
Grapeshot is good fun, but I think it is rather inconsistant. When I used it, it was more of a board clear vs a one shot kill. Ezuri is ok, but slow. M. Entity seems to be superior, as it costs 2 less and activites the many possible combos. The trample is missed out on of course though. I agree with the older strat of Vengvine, but I think its a nice SB surprise.Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
I have fun with Craterhoof Behemoth right now. It may sound silly, I like having the 2nd back up that I can zenith for.
Off the win conditions, I used to run 1 Soul of the Harvest as a back to Glimpse that I can zenith for as well, however it was rarely needed and inconsistant in use. Only had a few times where it was a great play, so I took it out.
I know its been discussed a few times here, but Vitalize needs to be looked at more. It enables your combo, virtually the equilvant of Crop Rotating a second Cradle out. Syncs with everything.
Gaddock Teeg should be SB in all decks. Ooze as well, if not MD...just my thoughts though of things that make things happen.
Alright guys, with the advent of Miracles and Show and Tell, I have a build I'd like to share with you guys. This is what I'm starting to test now:
Land (18)
3 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures (35)
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Vengevine
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Spells (7)
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Intuition
Sideboard (15)
1 Angel of Despair
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mortarpod
4 Negate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
As usual, we're still favored against the creature decks of the format. Intuition and Vengevines give us a lot more game against Miracles. Blue also allows for Negate out of the board, which again is good against Miracles in addition to being awesome against various flavors of combo. Testing has been very promising thus far.
Is Negate better than Envelop in the current metagame? I guess if BGx Pernicious Deed decks are a concern, Negate's ability to counter it is good. But Envelop hits a lot of the major threat: Terminus, Show and Tell, Entreat, Burning Wish, most reanimation spells, etc.
Idk I acknowledge that Envelop reads fairly narrow, but it seems like it answers most of what you'd board Negate for.
TPDMC
I don't think slowing yourself down with Vengevines is the best way to beat Miracles. They never really hit the graveyard in that match-up so they are just 4/3 hasty beaters, which while nice can be replaced with other elves to speed up the deck.
The only solid answer I've found to UW Miracles is Teeg, and NO+Prog to an extent. I also dabbled with Geddon and that is a pretty solid card. That and try to Glimpse out your elves so Terminus doesn't set you back so much, if at all.
Currently I'm also a little bit skeptical on using Vengevines, for them being too slow.
I may play on a tournament next weekend, and I'm thinking about using the following list:
LANDS (17):
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Pendelhaven
5x Forest
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Misty Rainforest
CREATURES (31):
4x Llanowar Elves
2x Fyndhorn Elves (or maybe 2x Priest of Titania on its place)
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Regal Force
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Progenitus
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
OTHER SPELLS (12):
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order
1x Crop Rotation
(I could also switch something for a single Fauna Shaman, for not auto-mulligan a starting hand with Progenitus.)
I'm liking the "inevitability" that comes from the possibility of having a T2 Progenitus on the battlefield.
Hence, I'm testing the full playset of Gaea's Cradle, to make the casting of Natural Order much more reliable.
Since I'm trying to suport the NO plan better, I'm thinking that the full playset of Quirion Ranger takes precedent here on behalf of Birchlore Rangers, since the Quirions can enable the following play line:
T1: Forest, Llanowar Elves.
T2: Tap Llanowar and Forest for {G}{G}. Use {G} to cast Quirion Ranger. Remains: {G}. Use Quirion ability, returning Forest to hand to untap Llanowar. Tap it again to add {G}. Remains: {G}{G}. Play Gaea's Cradle and tap it for {G}{G}. Total: {G}{G}{G}{G}. Use the mana to cast Natural Order > Progenitus.
Also, NO enables a not-so-hard kill on the same turn with the Behemoth.
If, after casting NO (and sacrificing a creature for it), I still have 3 creatures (without 'summoning sickness') on the battlefield plus the Behemoth that will enter it, I'll be attacking with three 5/5 elves and a 9/9 Behemoth, all of them with trample. In some testings that wasn't very hard to happen.
And depending on the game state, it could also be possible to even GSZ > Behemoth (That takes only one more mana than GSZ > Regal Force).
But then, I need to continue testing against the Counterspell and Discard decks, that might be the real problem.
So... What do you guys think of this decklist and my reasoning?
How could I improve it?
Sincerely,
- André
Last edited by andrebonotto; 10-06-2012 at 10:42 AM. Reason: adding some info / correcting the tags
@from Cairo
In a deck that is essentially completely mana, the extra colorless isn't a problem. It's worth spending an extra 1 to be able to counter a Top, Counterbalance, Jace, or Ad Nauseam. With Vengevines I'm actually not too worried about Deed.dec
@Kanti
Vengevines don't slow the combo down that much I've found. But now we're less reliant on it. Between Intuitions and Fauna Shamans, Vengevines hit the bin often enough. They apply immediate pressure after a Terminus and are essentially immune to Counterbalance/Top.
Speed is almost never an issue since our combo shits on the other creature decks anyway. Our biggest problem has always been faster combo decks and now Miracles. And the blue splash has been doing wonders for both.
I'ma play this next tourney i go to :D
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest
1 Regal Force
4 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy!!! Bananasssssssss
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Meekstone
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
I like your idea. But you have no wincond to support glimpse other than behemoth if i didnt miss anything. I dont like that, i think you need Emy.
Moreover, dont you think that 4 Craddle is too much? 2-3 It's ok. not yo mention that you run crop rotation.
And yes 1-2 Fauna shaman would be great!!
Cheers,
GC.
Tehre's a lot about this list that I'm not thrilled with. I don't see where the Veteran Explorer is coming in.I'ma play this next tourney i go to :D
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest
1 Regal Force
4 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Meekstone
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
Furthermore, after playing a B/G elves list, I think 3-4 Deathrite Shaman is mandatory. That card is a powerhouse against a lot of bad matchups. The B/G list is probably about a turn slower, but it opens you up to therapy'ing their Forces or spell pierces or board wipes.
I'm of the opinion that it's a lot more consistent, I'm just still trying to work out a worthwhile win con for it. There's always Fierce Empath -> Emrakul, but it doesn't seem fitting to the deck.
Veteran Explorer is tech against Poxes of my random local metagame. It's also viable to block a grounder against RUG and fetch precious mana. I don't think playing more than 2 MB D. Shaman is a good idea because it's not as reliable as good ol' Lanowar Elves.
Mana ramp isn't why you're playing him, you're playing him because Elves traditionally worst matchup are graveyard based decks. Turn 2 iona's will always beat elves. Gaining life and keeping graveyards down will improve the RUG matchup, taking out snapcaster targets and giving you reach against UW stoneblade matchups, etc.
At it's core, Elves is a combo/aggro deck, and it's perfectly alright to delay a few turns to set up disruption if you have it. The reality is that most games you probably won't be able to fully combo off, and rely either on half-combos or just play out threats and hope they get there. Deathrite Shaman gives you reach, gives you life-gain, and if you just play a lot of fetches, between your and their fetches, you'll be able to ramp with him as well.
Furthermore, he taps for any color, which is inherently good in the B/G version since you can pay for cabal therapy a little easier.
^This exactly^
Play more fetches, and play more Bayous too for that matter. Getting your only black source Wasted with a hand full of Therapies or a Shaman you need to use would be miserable. Can't always count on having a Birchlore.
Deathrite is definitely a card in this deck. I'll keep my ooze, but I'll take out a few of the worst elves for this guy. I'm really not sure that the B ability is necessary, though. I wouldn't splash black just for that. I think being able to remove creature cards is far more relevant. I would test him against dredge/reanimator in a mono-green or GW shell first before moving to black.
I have decided to do the same. Probably -1 Priest of Titania, +1 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Forest, +1 Bayou. I won't be going the cabal route just yet though, but having black does open the option for Abrupt side, which can clear Counterbalance.
Never thought I would be playing a tricolor Elves deck :-)
I find Cabal Therapy to be quite the awesome sauce. The deck I think runs more than enough creatures to make it worth playing and quite frankly, sacrificing a dude to pick off key cards in their hand can be absolutely game changing.
On a side note, I'll be going back to my roots and playing Elves again. I think about half my posts on The Source have been in this thread as I played the deck for something like ~9 months.
I might be attending a tournament not this weekend, but next weekend, and hope to have my elves list assembled.
I won't drum up the list tonight, but tomorrow night probably.
My only concern with G/B elves is a win condition. The list I ran in playtest controversially ran 0 emrakuls, 0 regal force and it seemed to be fine. It also ran exclusively 4x GSZ's as the only tutor spells, replacing the other tutor spells with Cabal Therapies.
I mean, realistically you only need ~10 elves on the table to win if you have a lord or two out, so I question the necessity of Emrakul or any other sort of instant win-con. I suppose a bad matchup for me would be Miracles in this case, as it gives them a turn to churn out a terminus, but I feel like if they're playing elves they're just going to sit back and wait for it anyways--so my advice against Miracles would be to not ever go balls deep and always try to keep a big grip to handle the aftermath of a Terminus.
Which invalidates the idea of running Emrakul anyways..so..I'm kind of back to square one where he doesn't seem necessary when you can still one shot people the next turn.
I wonder if there's a black or black/green creature that'd fulfill a win condition role.
Here is the liste I play :
6 fetchlands
5 forests
1 savannah
1 pendelhaven
1 dryad arbor
3 gaea's cradle
3 llanovar
1 fyndhorn
1 deathrite shaman
3 quirion ranger
1 birchlore rangers
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 wirewood symbiot
4 visionnaire
3 priest of titania
1 viridian shaman
1 scavenging ooze
1 mirror entity
1 craterhoof behemoth
1 regal force
4 glimpse of nature
4 GSZ
2 chord of calling
1 crop rotation
SB :
2 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 NO
2 dismember
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 choke
1 burrenton forge trender
My MD choices :
17 lands ton strengthen the manabase. 4 llanovar like + 1 deathrite shaman to have a good early game.
3 gameplans :
- glimpse,
- chord/mirror, crop rotation/mirror,
- GSZ/behemoth.
3 titania because it helps each of my gameplan.
My SB choices :
- 2 krosan grip : CB, sensei's divining top, engineered plague, jitte, pernicious deed,...
- 2 pithing needle : sensei's divining top, pernicious deed, sneak attack, goblin sharpshooter
- gaddock/safekeeper : tendrills.deck, UW miracle,
- burrenton forge trender : gobs, RUG delver,
- dismember : mainly against gaddock, sharpshooter and linvala,
- choke : UW miracle, BUG control and tempo thresold,
- NO : I use it when I want to kill faster (enchantress for instance) or when I can't afford hardcasting regal force or behemoth (BUG control, tempo.deck)
- scavenging ooze : RUG delver, UR delver, burn.
I liked your list, samman.
To know it better, how would you side your MD cards out against these MUs, to bring those SB cards in?
P.S.: How is Combo Elves doing lately on France's metagame?
against very fast decks, I side out 2 visionnaire, 1 llanovar. Depending on the MU, I usually side out viridian and/or ooze.
Against decks that use a lot of anticreature spells/abilities (control decks), I keep the 4 visionnaire, I side out regal force, behemoth, crop rotation (not every time because I like pendelhaven), 1 llanovar.
Against aggro decks, I side out 1 titania, 1 llanovar, 1 quirion ranger, 1 visionnaire.
In France, there a few people that play elfball nowadays.
Because they fear UW Miracle decks. They shouldn't! With krosan grip, needle, choke, this MU is not that bad (it is not an easy MU, of course!).
But the latest versions of BUG control (3 abrupt decay MD and 2/3 golgari charm+2/3 pernicious deed SB) are very tough.
So here's the list I'm staring down at the moment:
// Creatures:
4x Llanowar Elves
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Wirewood Symbiote
2x Quirion Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Priest of Titania
2x Elvish Archdruid
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
// Sorceries
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Glimpse of Nature
2x Living Wish
// Lands
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
5x Forest
// Sideboard:
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Gaea's Cradle
3x Something else (omni-tell hate? Ensnaring Bridge?)
Cabal Therapy is the stone cold nuts. I have found the card insanely useful so far. There are nearly no bad situations for it--it's perfectly acceptable to kill an elf to wreck their hand.
I chose Craterhoof Behemoth as a win con because it honestly just makes the most sense. With any half-decent combo finish that results in 9+ mana, this guy comes down as at least 9/9 or 10/10 (bare minimum I'm talking) and with an average combo off probably 18-20/18-20? I'll take this guy over Emrakul any day, even if he dies it doesn't matter--on average I have 2-4 elves that can attack after a combo, so if you just play out all your dudes, pump up your mana with guys that can't swing anyways, drop into this guy? Few decks are stopping 3-5 15+/15+ creatures with trample. The main reason though is just that it requires no setup. There's no chord of calling needed, there's no fierce empath tutor (though that works), just green sun at 8 and then win. There were many games prior to adding him in which I could produce a ton of mana but I had no real "win con", I just sort of made a lot of elves, landed some lords and alpha swung them (which works just fine), so having this "This hits and I win the game" mechanic is attractive. He doesn't take up any space but the one slot he's occupying and that's really necessary when you're running cabal therapy.
This may be rambly because it's almost 3am T_T;;
Long story short, I haven't had this much fun playing a deck in awhile. Deathrite Shaman is a legitimate game changer. Most games I aggressively tutor for them, as they just dominate the state of the game. I mean the reality is it's infrequent that we'll be allowed to combo off unabated, and this card screams "Hey if the game isn't going your way, it's cool, I've got this." The restriction on his ability to produce mana is almost non-existent. I was previously playing 15 lands, I cut a Therapy for a land--not sure if that's the right decision, but I feel much more comfortable at 16 land than I do at 15. One deathrite shaman has been dropped for a scavenging ooze. I don't know how I feel about this, but again, first and foremost the concern for elves to me is graveyard hate. Also, this is one of the few decks that can really abuse Ooze to it's fullest: being able to produce 15 mana very easily lets you drop him and just eat -everything-.
I also really enjoy all of the lifegain in the deck at the moment: it's nice knowing I can go a long game, eat all my dead dudes EOT for huge life swings. And I need to mention again that Cabal Therapy is fuckin awesome. You just can't play them very aggressively unless you need to. I prefer to save them for either the turn before I combo, after my opponent tutors something, or the turn of my combo. I'll sac a llanowar elf to strip their hand of any defenses.
So yeah, everything feels really good with this list. I'm going to be taking it to Jupiter next weekend and we'll see what happens.
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