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Thread: [Deck] Elves Combo

  1. #521
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Druid/Priests are interchangeable, but I like being able to use Priests earlier and not rely on having 3 mana (for instance, mana elf + forest). Quirion Ranger hasn't helped me much in this build as it does in the SotF build. Untapping a non-Priest elf isn't the biggest concern. Wirewood Symbiote serves the same function but also fuels Glimpse triggers which is far more important.

    Eternal Witness gets whatever is good at the time. I have never tutored for it midcombo however. I've used it many times to get back another Pact mid-combo, a fetchland prior to going off, or returning a dead Archdruid/Viridian Shaman.

    As for Viridian Shaman maindeck, he's saved my skin a few times vs Jitte and other nuisances like Affinity, which is abundant in the MTGO meta. Wirewood Symbiote + V. Shaman = victory!
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  2. #522

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    Druid/Priests are interchangeable, but I like being able to use Priests earlier and not rely on having 3 mana (for instance, mana elf + forest). Quirion Ranger hasn't helped me much in this build as it does in the SotF build. Untapping a non-Priest elf isn't the biggest concern. Wirewood Symbiote serves the same function but also fuels Glimpse triggers which is far more important.

    Eternal Witness gets whatever is good at the time. I have never tutored for it midcombo however. I've used it many times to get back another Pact mid-combo, a fetchland prior to going off, or returning a dead Archdruid/Viridian Shaman.

    As for Viridian Shaman maindeck, he's saved my skin a few times vs Jitte and other nuisances like Affinity, which is abundant in the MTGO meta. Wirewood Symbiote + V. Shaman = victory!

    I think I'd rather just race affinity than worry about blowing their stuff up

    The reason I like ranger is because of two turn 2 plays that I make very often:

    -Only have one land in play and a ranger, and no lands in hand. tap the land, bounce, play again, tap again.

    or the better play:
    -Have one land in play and a llanowar/fyndhorn. Tap the forst for a ranger, tap the llanowar/fyndhorn for a heritage. Bounce the land to untap the llanowar/fyndhorn, float three with heritage to start comboing or cast an archdruid.

  3. #523
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by k2thej View Post
    Ruckus- we seem to be going for similar builds. Few things:

    Do you think the priests are worth it?

    Why not 4 rangers? They save my ass quite frequently.

    I tend to go for more one drops instead of priests/archdruids since they are more vulnerable to spot removal if you concentrate the mana production in fewer creatures. Benefits of priests over druids? I have rarely ever been able to cast a priest without a druid.

    Is it worth it to have shaman in main?

    What are your main witness targets (I would imagine glimpse but are there others)?
    I'm totally agree with that. Maybe there is no reason for including 4, but 3 would be a nice number to include Quirion Ranger. I think Priest/Archdruid are better with Concordant or something like that giving him haste.

    I've obviously confused top, I thought you were speaking about if it worths including divining top to tutor in the deck. It seems ridiculous, but I think it's worthy to discuss about other ways to tutoring, not only Summonre's, will also be interesting to be possible to tutor the Grapeshot or another cards.

    And about Countertop, obviously City doesn't help us a lot, if we have this archetype we must sideboard not only City, also Krosan Grip. City only helps us against hand counters, but I've mentioned City because it seem the only menace we have for our play were counters/stifles and it helps for sure play in our turn against fire, against creatures with flash with nasty effects of the like "when X comes into play", also substract interaction of our rival, when he saw what we did in our turn, not letting him to draw/interact with his deck in the manner "before my turn I cast Brainstorm/Top...", protects us against something like "I prevent damage dealt by Grapeshot" (Fog to Emrakul it's worthless because he sacrifices 6 permanents).

  4. #524
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Keeping to fiddle around with Living Wish. The card really is quite diverse and has saved my ass in a number of situations and singlehandedly beats any and all hatecards game 1 save Humility (and that's only until they print something with Channeling/Cycling Enchantment removal), so I went ahead and cut a Messenger to adda 3rd copy main (moving the Messenger to the side in lieu of Viridian Shaman). Paying 1G for Cradle or Faerie, 1GG for the 6th Symbiote or 3GGG for Sylvan Messenger or Viridian Zealot are all perfectly viable at different stages of the game (especially as tutoring up Symbiote still is essentially card advantage at a negative mana cost with Priest/Archdruid out), making it another bomb to complement the draw engines.

    The difference between 15 and 17 mana for Emrakul is neglible (and I get to play 3 virtual copies to boot without the hassle of actually drawing it), and having access to it without bogging down the main is strangely convenient; Emrakul beats Show and Tell, Emrakul beats damage prevention, Emrakul beats my largely unfounded fears that my opponent is coy enough to play enchantment on Crossroads removal into next turn sweeper. Hell, in conjunction with Masticore Emrakul even beats infinite life combos by singlehandidly locking them out of the game and decking them (combo out, Emrakul, blow up world, play masticore, discard down, kill off as many Elves as I please, then spend 30 mana to burn Emrakul to death (killing Masticore itself in response to avoid StP) and shuffle my gy into my library only to combo out again next turn - rinse and repeat). Also it can be sided in against milling combo decks.

    Masticore is there to beat Peacekeeper and Fortune Thief, as well as being a decent ace in the sleeve against tribal decks that might or may not pack Perish/Plague. Witness is overall quite redundant as a card engine with access to Messenger, but does recycly Glimpse and Grip against decks running sweepers and counters (where the combo win is safer when possible).

    Is it better than Survival? I think so. It's just more diverse, more mana efficient, doesn't necessitate running Taigas, isn't vulnerable to GYhate and allows me to hold up on running silver bullets maindecked. It doesn't win the game singlehandedly off an empty board given time like survival can however (especially against decks running obnoxious amounts of removal). Giving up half the the sideboard isn't much of an issue; it's mainly for Krosan Grip and GYhate anyhow (even in my non-Wish builds), and unless you really want to commit 7 spots to the combo matchup it's probably better not to side in most matchups anyhow what with how tight the maindeck is. I somewhat miss Needle, but overall it's an improvement in testing.

  5. #525

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    Keeping to fiddle around with Living Wish. The card really is quite diverse and has saved my ass in a number of situations and singlehandedly beats any and all hatecards game 1 save Humility (and that's only until they print something with Channeling/Cycling Enchantment removal), so I went ahead and cut a Messenger to adda 3rd copy main (moving the Messenger to the side in lieu of Viridian Shaman). Paying 1G for Cradle or Faerie, 1GG for the 6th Symbiote or 3GGG for Sylvan Messenger or Viridian Zealot are all perfectly viable at different stages of the game (especially as tutoring up Symbiote still is essentially card advantage at a negative mana cost with Priest/Archdruid out), making it another bomb to complement the draw engines.

    The difference between 15 and 17 mana for Emrakul is neglible (and I get to play 3 virtual copies to boot without the hassle of actually drawing it), and having access to it without bogging down the main is strangely convenient; Emrakul beats Show and Tell, Emrakul beats damage prevention, Emrakul beats my largely unfounded fears that my opponent is coy enough to play enchantment on Crossroads removal into next turn sweeper. Hell, in conjunction with Masticore Emrakul even beats infinite life combos by singlehandidly locking them out of the game and decking them (combo out, Emrakul, blow up world, play masticore, discard down, kill off as many Elves as I please, then spend 30 mana to burn Emrakul to death (killing Masticore itself in response to avoid StP) and shuffle my gy into my library only to combo out again next turn - rinse and repeat). Also it can be sided in against milling combo decks.

    Masticore is there to beat Peacekeeper and Fortune Thief, as well as being a decent ace in the sleeve against tribal decks that might or may not pack Perish/Plague. Witness is overall quite redundant as a card engine with access to Messenger, but does recycly Glimpse and Grip against decks running sweepers and counters (where the combo win is safer when possible).

    Is it better than Survival? I think so. It's just more diverse, more mana efficient, doesn't necessitate running Taigas, isn't vulnerable to GYhate and allows me to hold up on running silver bullets maindecked. It doesn't win the game singlehandedly off an empty board given time like survival can however (especially against decks running obnoxious amounts of removal). Giving up half the the sideboard isn't much of an issue; it's mainly for Krosan Grip and GYhate anyhow (even in my non-Wish builds), and unless you really want to commit 7 spots to the combo matchup it's probably better not to side in most matchups anyhow what with how tight the maindeck is. I somewhat miss Needle, but overall it's an improvement in testing.

    Are you running Nettle/Heritage in the board to have access to them too? Maybe you could post your list?

  6. #526
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Nah. Same deal; 4x Heritage maindecked, no Nettles. I only have access to 7x Wishboard slots and those are currently filled (since I consider 4x Grip/Faerie Macabre mandatory to deal with assorted hate and Reanimator/recursion).

  7. #527
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    It's hard to imagine this deck without Nettle Sentinel. After Heritage Druid it'd be the last card that I'd cut. I'll have to see how that works, considering that it works for you. Now that you've told more about the wish sideboard I'm seeing more in that plan as well. I'd run Pact even if it was only to get a free untap from the Sentinel, but if you cut that Living Wish really makes a lot more sense. I have to be careful not to get stuck in the "I want Sentinal and Pact in my deck because I am in luv" mode :)

    Living Wish into Masticore seems awesome. Connecting this to the previous page: how does this help you against Zoo with burn? Not quite I guess.
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  8. #528
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    It's basically the Goblins deal; as long as you survive the first few turns outside burn range (which is doable since like Goblins they really have to answer quite the few creatures immedieatly or risk losing) you will eventually overwhelm them. Your fundamental is also faster but competent opponents will disrupt that so playing miniglimpses aggresively to cycle chumpers is probably a good idea until you stabilize. Slighesque builds are generally worse than big Zoo since they run 1-drops that matter and more burn, but in my experience the mu has been slightly negative to even.

    Nettle Sentinel is a matter of taste but personally I dislike that engine since it's reliant on both Heritage and Glimpse being available for it to actually do something other than being a slightly anemic beater, and aggressively summoner's pacting backfires easily. Heritage Druid really is the broken part of the interaction anyway, essentially getting you several free dark rituals with which to find Crossroads/Priest ftw (the untappers and 4 virtual Cradles helps with this).

    EDIT: Oh, yeah. List. Not much has changed since I started posting it on this thread really, just the number of Messengers main and the tutor slot.

    // Lands
    15 [TE] Forest
    1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

    // Creatures
    4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
    4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
    3 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
    3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
    4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
    4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
    4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
    3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
    3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
    3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

    // Spells
    4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
    2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
    3 [JU] Living Wish

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
    SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
    SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
    SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
    SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
    SB: 1 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger

  9. #529

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    It's basically the Goblins deal; as long as you survive the first few turns outside burn range (which is doable since like Goblins they really have to answer quite the few creatures immedieatly or risk losing) you will eventually overwhelm them. Your fundamental is also faster but competent opponents will disrupt that so playing miniglimpses aggresively to cycle chumpers is probably a good idea until you stabilize. Slighesque builds are generally worse than big Zoo since they run 1-drops that matter and more burn, but in my experience the mu has been slightly negative to even.

    Nettle Sentinel is a matter of taste but personally I dislike that engine since it's reliant on both Heritage and Glimpse being available for it to actually do something other than being a slightly anemic beater, and aggressively summoner's pacting backfires easily. Heritage Druid really is the broken part of the interaction anyway, essentially getting you several free dark rituals with which to find Crossroads/Priest ftw (the untappers and 4 virtual Cradles helps with this).

    EDIT: Oh, yeah. List. Not much has changed since I started posting it on this thread really, just the number of Messengers main and the tutor slot.

    // Lands
    15 [TE] Forest
    1 [US] Gaea's Cradle

    // Creatures
    4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
    4 [WWK] Joraga Warcaller
    3 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
    3 [10E] Llanowar Elves
    4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
    4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
    4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
    3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
    3 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
    3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

    // Spells
    4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
    2 [LG] Concordant Crossroads
    3 [JU] Living Wish

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
    SB: 1 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
    SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
    SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
    SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
    SB: 1 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
    As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?

  10. #530
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by k2thej View Post
    As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?
    What he said ^^^ lol

    Whether you're focusing on combo (like myself and k2thej) or aggro, Nettle Sentinel along with Heritage Druid/Birchlore Rangers is the stone cold nuts. I've had games where I got 5-6 elves on the battlefield along with an Imperious Perfect on turn 2. That means even if you don't draw Glimpse/Regal Force/Summoner's Pact to GET Regal Force, you'll still have the potential for attacking for 10-12 damage on turn 3. Not the fastest aggro clock, but pretty damn fast.

  11. #531
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by k2thej View Post
    As someone who optimizes the combo in elves combo, I have to disagree that Nettle is optional. Nettle, heritage, and glimpse are MUSTS. With nettle in hand, it usually speeds up the goldfish by a full turn. Why wouldn't you want that?
    Again, because the format runs enough relevant disruption that the goldfish isn't happening consistently enough to sacrifice resilience in my opinion. Same difference as Belcher and FT to make a very rough comparison. Also as I cannot resist the rhetorical point - Nettle: heritage and glimpse ARE musts.

    Still, this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?

  12. #532

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    Again, because the format runs enough relevant disruption that the goldfish isn't happening consistently enough to sacrifice resilience in my opinion. Same difference as Belcher and FT to make a very rough comparison. Also as I cannot resist the rhetorical point - Nettle: heritage and glimpse ARE musts.

    Still, this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?
    Seems like a good move right now. I think a good topic to move to would be what to do against sweepers. In general, if people don't have sweepers, I win, so naturally this is my biggest concern. I am running fecundity in the sb right now but I still feel like there has to be something that would be better (and less than 3 mana).

  13. #533
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    I've seen people with the chord of the calling build running dauntless dourbark.

  14. #534
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Dauntless Dourbark

    Are you sure that's the card? It doesn't seem to have any synergy that I'm aware of..?

  15. #535
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    that indeed isn't the card I was looking for. I ment dountless escort!

  16. #536

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Waikiki View Post
    that indeed isn't the card I was looking for. I ment dountless escort!
    Ya that card isn't bad but it isn't too great either. I'd rather look for a permanent effect like fecundity. I really don't like chord of calling at all, it's just too expensive.

  17. #537
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Wirewood Symbiote and not overextending the board too much is what I generally go for. There is no catch-all card that will completely nullify sweepers, but in my experience as long as you manage to outdraw the opponent and they don't keep you under pressure you will stick enough to win eventually (unless they completely deprive you of mana sources, which is another good reason not to skimp on forests in favor of temporary mana sources such as Spirit Guides etc).

  18. #538

    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Has anyone thought of the applications of comboing with food chain? The easiness of turn 2 combos made me happy. Example:

    Turn one: forest, llanowar
    Turn two, forest, food chain. Remove llanowar for glimpse and another one drop and off you go!

  19. #539
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by k2thej View Post
    Has anyone thought of the applications of comboing with food chain? The easiness of turn 2 combos made me happy. Example:

    Turn one: forest, llanowar
    Turn two, forest, food chain. Remove llanowar for glimpse and another one drop and off you go!
    There was a foodchain-elves thread already on the source, and I tested with it. It was nice, but I just liked the consistancy of the normal elves combo better. My list didnt run glimpse of nature, and I dont think thats the way to go.

  20. #540
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    Re: [Deck] Elves Combo

    I tried Army of Ancients (Glimpse + Food Chain Elves), but the list relies too heavily on Food Chain.

    Turn 2 Eldrazi is really funny however. :)
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