1. What is CounterTop Control?
2. Why Not Run Those Other Decks?
3. Building CounterTop Countol
a. Deck Philosophy
b. Basics
c. Deck Core
d. Other Slots
e. Compiling List
f. Sideboard
4. In-Depth Card Analysis
a. Why Core is Core
b. Filling the Other Slots
c. What Do You Sideboard
5. Splashes
a. Primary Concerns
b. White
c. Black
d. Red
6. Frequently Asked Questions
7. Topics to Discuss
8. Discussion Guidelines
1. What is CounterTop Control?
CounterTop Control is a blue-based control deck that seeks to make use of the Counterbalance-Top combo to push opponents out of the game, and combines that with extensive deck manipulation to find whatever cards it needs. It’s a deck that involves a lot of decisions, rewarding tight players and punishing those with less focus.
It is not to be confused with the Counterbalance decks running Natural Order for Progenitus, nor the seemingly aggro-Bant lists that also run the CounterTop combo. The former is largely a combo deck, while the latter decks are trying to carry out a midrange plan. Furthermore, this topic is not the place to debate whether my above sweeping conclusions are valid. This thread is only for the discussion of Countertop Control.
2. Why Not Run Those Other Decks?
CounterTop Progenitus (or Countergenitals, or Natural Order Top) is a deck that makes far too many concessions in order to run its namesake Hydra. It has to run Noble Hierarch, a card that at its best still pretty much doesn’t do anything. They often run Qasali Pridemage, which is fine, but they’re also forced to run things like Rhox War Monk or Kitchen Finks, mostly in an effort to ensure that they have a green creature to sacrifice for Natural Order. As much as these creatures are playable, they simply do not do anything against an opposing Tarmogoyf; the latter two are largely a concession against Zoo, which tends to just burn them out if they tap out for Natural Order. In general I find the Natural Order combo to be too costly, in terms of deck slots, and too narrowing in terms of their gameplan to be worth running within a CounterTop shell. The results show that it is a good deck, but I do not believe it to be an optimal choice in any metagame.
The other primary CounterTop archetype, Supreme Blue, is indeed similar to the archetype outlined in this primer. However, Supreme Blue has always been confined by the specificity of its creation, and the card-choices made in its creation. CounterTop Control is free of Supreme Blue’s historical limitations.
3. Building CounterTop Countol
a. Deck Philosophy
The basic philosophy behind the deck is to be able to deal with anything the opponent throws at you. An essential corollary to this is to be able to ignore as many of the opponent’s cards as possible. For this reason, the deck runs counter-magic beyond the namesake enchantment, removal, and as many cards that can pull double-duty as possible.
b. Basics
Creatures: This section might as well be called Tarmogoyf and friends. Tarmogoyf is an amazing card in the deck, being both an impressive wall, potent offensive threat, and powerful finisher. Unfortunately, very few other creatures are capable of pulling off this feat, and none of them do it at such a friendly mana cost.
Deck Manipulation: Sensei’s Divining Top, Brainstorm, and fetchlands. These are hugely important, and efficient, effective use of them is as well. They get you additional lands when you need them, the allow you to abuse Counterbalance, and they find you the cards you need when you need them.
Countermagic: Four Force of Wills is a must, as is the full playset of our favorite enchantment. Beyond that, it’s advisable to run a couple more, usually Spell Snare or even the underplayed Counterspell. Daze should not be run in this deck. We neither put enough early pressure on the opponent nor do we attack their manabase; furthermore, we don’t want to lose our land drops anyway. Go for hard counters.
Removal: Although Andy Probasco did well at Worlds without running any spot removal, with the rise of Zoo and Merfolk, it is now necessary and advisable to run some sort of early creature removal. Swords to Plowshares is the gold standard, and likely optimal.
Manabase: At least eight fetchlands, perhaps nine. At least a basic Forest, likely a couple basic Islands, and probably a basic land of whatever color you splashed for removal, be it white or black. Every dual should tap for blue. Twenty lands minimum, although I recommend a couple more. You do not want to draw one-land hands, and you do not want to have to burn your deck manipulation cards—nor your early mana—on finding lands.
c. Deck Core
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Other fetches (blue and your splash color, usually white)
1 Forest
1 Plains or Mountain or Swamp
2-6 Islands
5-8 Duals
0-2 Utility lands
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3-4 Sensei’s Divining Top (almost always 4)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Removal (i.e. Swords)
2 Vedalken Shackles
d. Other Slots
One option is the Trinket Mage package, which looks something like this:
3 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
0-1 Basilisk Collar (still testing this)
0-1 Relic of Progenitus or Tormod’s Crypt, inclusion based upon meta.
The nice thing about running this is that although it takes up 5 or 6 slots, it allows you to cut a Top, taking up one less slot than before. It also frees up sideboard slots. Additionally, with 2x Academy Ruins as your utility lands, Engineered Explosives becomes a potent end-game lock mechanism. That the card lets you recur destroyed Pithing Needles or Vedalken Shackles is just gravy. The fact that Trinket Mages give you shuffle effect is also often relevant.
There are tons of other cards to consider, but here are just a few:
Sower of Temptation
Rhox War Monk (aka the most overrated card in Legacy)
Spell Snare
Counterspell
Additional removal of any color
Firespout
Ponder
Vendillion Clique
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Control Magic
Knight of the Reliquary
Wrath of God (maybe)
e. Compiling a List
The deck’s core is rather small, leaving ample room for variation. The core itself is only two colors, leaving the deckbuilder to decide and what manner of splashes will be used, with white (for Swords to Plowshares) being the most common.
The most important thing is that we want as many of our cards to pull double duty as possible. In fact, this is why Tarmogoyf is good. The green monster both stops us from dying as well as winning the game when the coast is clear. This is something we want in as many of our cards as possible.
The following is a list I recently piloted to a top4 finish in a 75 person tournament:
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
5 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Academy Ruins
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
As you can see, I fail to follow some of my own advice. I have since made changes using what I learned from this tournament, thereby reaching the conclusions I reached above. This is my current list, sans sideboard:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
4 Spell Snare
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
f. Sideboard
The possible sideboard cards are far too numerous to list entirely. However, generally you want something for everything, including 3-5 graveyard hate cards, some cards for other Counterbalance decks (almost always Krosan Grip), some cards that hit zoo and other red aggro decks, something for Merfolk, and something for combo. A consideration for Stax and Enchantress is not out of the question either, but you should be able to hit those decks with cards designed to come in against other, more common opponents.
4. In-Depth Card Analysis
a. Why Core is Core
Force of Will: Legacy is a wide-open format. This can literally deal with everything. It stops anything you absolutely do not want resolving, and protects the rest of your spells. There's a reason it's in the top 2 most played cards in the format.
Tarmogoyf: Tarmogoyf pulls double duty better than any other creature you could play. He holds back the opponent’s team, and he beats down when you’re ready to do that. No other card does this, and certainly not for only two mana and no other investment.
Fetchlands: Most decks use fetchlands to fix their mana and protect themselves from Wasteland. We use fetchlands for that as well, but also to search for cards. A fetchland after a Brainstorm, a Ponder, or a Top activation lets you see a completely different set of cards, ensuring you can find the card you need when you need it.
Basic Lands:
Basic lands not only provide Wasteland protection, but having basics of your splash colors also makes cards like Blood Moon and Choke something that can be ignored. They weaken shackles, but the gains far outstrip that minor drawback.
Counterbalance: Counterbalance lends its namesake to the deck for good reason. Even without an active top, the mere threat of using Brainstorm in response to a Counterbalance trigger is potent. Ponder (if you run it) also helps to increase the power of the card. Despite the fact that players are no longer unprepared for this card, there are simply no decks aren’t hurt deeply by this combo.
Sensei’s Divining Top: With Counterbalance out its power is obvious. However, even without the enchantment, the Top is easily one of the best cards in the deck. What’s more, drawing multiples isn’t a bad thing, as you can simply use its second ability to switch the redundant top for a new card, then shuffle it away with a fetchland.
Brainstorm: The interesting thing about Brainstorm is that the card is mediocre without the ability to shuffle away cards you don’t want to have in your hand. That said, it is absolutely broken when you can get rid of those cards. What’s more, the synergy with Counterbalance is not to be ignored.
Spot Removal: Some number of spot removal is essential to stop from being run over, to maintain board advantage once you’ve gained it, and to answer problematic creatures such as Qasali Pridemage and Lord of Atlantis. 4x Swords to Plowshares is the gold standard. More discussion on this can be found in the Splashes section
Vedalken Shackles: Originally I doubted this card, thinking that it’d either be too slow or I wouldn’t have enough islands in play half the time. I was greatly mistaken. Vedalken Shackles is, without a doubt, an extremely potent card. Most of the time it’s like cheating. It wins games by itself, and it turns around games that seem unwinnable—the type of game you consider conceding so that you have time to win the next two. It is an absolute house in every matchup except storm-based combo. The only question is whether or not to run three.
b. Filling the Other Slots
Counterspell vs. Spell Snare
Both of these hit some of the most important cards for you to counter: Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Standstill, Qasali Pridemage, Dark Confidant, Lord of Atlantis, Chalice of the Void (at one), Goblin Piledriver, Survival of the Fittest, Spellstutter Sprite, Hymn to Tourach, etc. Spell Snare tends to counter these more consistently, as it can be cast to counter their two-drop when you’re on the play.
However, Counterspell, while slower and less likely to stop an early two-drop, will counter anything that seems problematic. Choke, Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void (at two), Knight of the Reliquary, Natural Order, Sower of Temptation, Force of Will, Sensei’s Divining Top, Ad Nauseam, Replenish, Moat, Intuition, Tombstalker, etc etc etc.
Spell Snare is probably better in the common matchups, while Counterspell’s versatility can’t be overlooked when considering the entire field. Spell Snare is certainly better against Zoo, where stopping their early drops is essential.
Pernicious Deed – Although an extremely powerful card, given the amount of cards we play that sit on the board, I don’t think the Deed can be a major roleplayer in CounterTop Control. Given its power, however, I could be mistaken.
Cards not to run:
Dark Confidant – Bob, although a powerful card, is definitely not something that we want to run. This is because he fails our cardinal rule: he doesn’t pull double duty. Bob doesn’t affect the board when you play him, which is something we can’t abide in our “business” cards. The lifeloss only confounds this problem. Furthermore, you can’t go about expending resources protecting him, which means he’s only good in two situations. The first is when you already have counter-top in place, so he becomes win-more anyway. The second is against opposing control decks that have less threats in place than you. Here he is actually decent, but given how little of the metagame these decks make up, and the disadvantage of having him in aggro matchups, running him maindeck against control is far from a smart decision.
Daze – Our deck is not fast, nor does it attack the opponent’s manabase. Most of the time Daze ends up being a dead card as the opponent can usually pay the mana. Most of the instances in which Daze will actually counter something are in the early game, a time in which you do not want to sacrifice a land drop in order to stop some card you could stop with, say, Spell Snare.
Rhox War Monk – This card is played in NO Countertop because they needed a green creature they could pitch to force that would help their abysmal Zoo matchup. He also happens to be randomly good against Belcher, as he stops them from winning through Empty the Warrens, but that’s so rare it’s hardly a good reason to run him.
The problem is that he’s bad against every other matchup. Goblins? He’s difficult to cast early, and by the time you do they’ll have such an army of goblins it probably won’t matter. He can’t even bounce Piledriver.
Merfolk? He’s difficult to cast at all, here, and tends to be pretty useless once you do since they’re just going to drop a Lord of Atlantis or Wake Thrasher, win the counter-war over their threat, then beat you. Post board Submerge makes him look stupid.
Canadian Threshold? Even more difficult to cast. Post-board he just dies to Pyroblast, or gets Submerged.
He’s obviously bad against other CounterTop decks, in which anything smaller than Tarmogoyf tends to be pretty useless. His role there is just to pitch to Force.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that he’s not even that great against Zoo. Without CounterTop out he just eats a couple burn spells, or a burn spell and Lavamancer activation (or Pyroblast post-board). His primary use has been to stabilize after CounterTop has been established, and he does this job well. However, I contest that there are other options that do this as well, and are far more effective in other matchups. Adding a Basilisk Collar to a deck with Trinket Mages, for example, works fine. Vedalken Shackles is also a far superior board-control card, with or without CounterTop.
c. What Do You Sideboard
There are an infinitude of options for sideboarding, especially when you consider the possible color combinations employed. You definitely want to hit the following:
- Graveyard hate - usually 5 slots; can be lowered to 3 if you’re running something to find them)
- Artifact/Enchantment hate – Krosan Grips are the gold standard here, and likely all you need. Run more if Stax or Enchantress are in your meta.
- Tribal hate, especially Merfolk. – Usually a board clearer, or more narrowly Llawan.
- Something to stop Progenitus.
- Something for Combo – Spell Pierce, Counterspell, and Thoughtseize tend to be the most versatile options. Meddling Mage also stops Natural Order.
- Something for Zoo/other aggro decks – Usually a couple hydroblast and/or more spot removal.
5. Splashes
a. Primary Concerns
a. Removal: Whichever color you choose, you are choosing it primarily because of the removal it offers.
b. Your 75: The splash you choose to go with has a huge impact on your sideboard plans against most decks, and also the overall appearance of your sideboard. One color might have a card that covers several matchups, while the other colors have to address those matchups individually.
b. White
White gives you Swords to Plowshares as your maindeck removal, and also gives you Knight of the Reliquary as goyfs 5-6. In the board it mostly gives Path to Exile, Ghostly Prison, Wrath of God, and Meddling Mage.
c. Black
Black unfortunately can’t compare to white’s efficiency of removal. You’ll have to use some amalgamation of Ghastly Demise, Smother, Diabolic Edict, and Maelstrom Pulse. On the bright side, these latter two are able to do things Swords cannot; the edict stops on Reanimator, and can kill an opposing Progenitus (sometimes). Maelstrom Pulse is odd in that it can kill any problematic card in play, but is terrible at removing goyfs when you have one of your own.
In the sideboard black gives Extirpate, Leyline of the Void, Pernicious Deed, Damnation, Thoughtseize, Infest, Engineered Plague. Of these, only the Leylines and the Thoughtseizes seem like they’re any good.
d. Red
Swords to Plowshares is downgraded to Lightning Bolt. Bolt surprisingly still kills most creatures, but the fact that it can’t take out a Tarmogoyf is a huge hit to its efficacy. However, the primary reason for running red is Firespout, a card that will go a long way in the fight against Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves.
6. Frequently Asked Questions
I will periodically edit this entire post as things are established and discovered. This section will contain pertinent questions and answers as we develop them.
7.Topics to Discuss
What is the proper splash configuration?
To Trinket Mage, or Not to Trinket Mage?
When running Trinket Mages, is Basilisk Collar worthwhile?
How many Shackles?
Counterspell or Spell Snare?
After Tarmogoyf, what creatures (or creature-like cards) should we be running (based on splash)?
What is the proper removal configuration for the black splash?
8. Discussion Guidelines
Threads on The Source have a tendency to be overrun. This is because the posters have a tendency to post hastily, without the due research and/or thought required to make their claims or arguments carry any weight. The purpose of this thread is to discover and design the correct 75 cards for modern Countertop Control in legacy.
Pursuant that effort, please do not post responses that are just a decklist, without explaining every non-standard card choice you made, why you think it’s optimal, etc. Any argument that some card is better than another card should be backed up by testing, and I do not mean a couple matches—twenty matches against the target enemy deck is the proper metric.
The goal here is to make it so that every post is worth reading. We do not want to have 100 page threads, especially when the conversation could’ve taken place in 10 pages. This helps both the contributors and newcomers, so please show some restraint before you click ‘submit.’
If we decide trinket mage package is worth it, i would advise to include one Aether Spellbomb main.
It provides a main deck answer to Iona and Emrakul
In worst case it cantrips and grows Goyf.
You can perma bounce 1 creature with academy ruins once you have 5 mana
You can reuse your trinket mage to get all the trinkets you need.
If we need double duty cards Aether Spellbomb is worth testing (i've got nice results with it as a 1 of). Vs fast agroo path to exile is still better but its more narrow and not tutorable.
For example taking your list as reference I would replace 1 path to exile with 1 Aether Spellbomb.
Last edited by bokepa; 05-12-2010 at 10:56 AM.
AEther Spellbomb actually doesn't seem half bad, as per your arguments. However, there are some problems with it.
1. Its power is drastically lower than the power of the rest of the cards in the deck. Bouncing a creature against any deck but reanimator isn't going to further our plan, and just results in card disadvantage.
2. You can only afford to run so many targets for Trinket Mage before you too often draw them when they aren't needed. Granted, as you said, it cantrips, but it still seems less than stellar.
3. It seems that the primary use it has, from your comments, is against Reanimator. This deck already doesn't lose against reanimator. If they do manage to resolve their big threat, Basilisk Collar generally ends up being good enough to win the game against Inkwell or Iona. Post-board you generally bring something in like Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce, which both generally ensure that you have time to setup Countertop, locking them well out of the game. Not to mention the Tormod's Crypts that you can both tutor for and recur.
If Aether Spellbomb could bounce any permanent, it would probably warrant inclusion. As it stands, it doesn't serve much of a purpose.
I can't imagine Basilisk Collar being worth three mana.
Also, I wouldn't want Aether Spellbomb main, and I run one sideboarded already against Reanimator. It's not worth the mana in too many matchups.
Is Tarmogoyf good enough anymore? I don't think saying "It's Tarmogoyf" justifies him completely without questioning it.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Originally Posted by frogboy
The Collar is just an option, something I've been trying. It has been randomly awesome several times, and gives Trinket Mages some teeth.
I've already went into why I think Tarmogoyf is great in the first post. I guess you'll have to be more descriptive in your question of whether or not he's still worthwhile.
Why would you build your deck around Tarmogoyf when Zoo decks are already equipped to Path him and keep going and Merfolk decks can Islandwalk past him? Tarmogoyf was originally revolutionary for the control decks because it was a guy that could start answering Goblin Warchief on turn 2 and survive, but then could turn around and win. He's no longer the biggest creature in the format (Knight of the Reliquary takes that honor).
I don't think Tarmogoyf is good enough to get there. It's too easy for opposing decks to just ignore him or win anyway. I don't think the maindeck as you presented it will ever have a shot of being Merfolk or Goblins, and not Zoo will probably be tough too.
Start by figuring out what decks you want to beat, and figuring out the strategies you want to take to beat them. I have a strong feeling that you'll find Vedalken Shackles and Basilisk Collar and maybe even Knight of the Reliquary aren't part of it.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Well, you shouldn't play any creatures because zoo can always path them and because islandwalk can pass through them!
Irony apart, I can't believe you are suggesting to not run Tarmogoyf in this shell. It gives an answer to early drop, opposite tarmogoyf. Stall the board against Goblins and merfolk. He cost two so he comes ahead 1 turn faster than the knight. Seriously, it's too easy for opposite player to pass through him ? Following your flawed logic, this deck shouldn't run any creatures because other decks can pass through them ? You have Counterbalance, Spell snare/Daze, Swords to plowshares, Force of will for annoying opposite creatures (Knight, Tarmogoyf, LoA, Lackey) and to answer their removal.
You are not suggesting removing Trinket mage, which is not really good agaisnt aggro but your are suggesting removing tarmogoyf, who is a house agaisnt them ?
Plus, you need to consider that the deck only has 3 cost of 2 to reveal over a counterbalance if you remove Tarmogoyf. You also need to keep in there for that reason.
Plus if you remove Tarmogoyf, it will lack of kill condition and the deck will be considerably slower. Knight comes out by turn 3, at best, is easily dazable and it's sometime hard to get to 3 mana agaisnt goblins and merfolk. Don't get me wrong, Knight is good, but I think that any deck that almost any deck that might be running it should be running tarmogoyf before.
Are we really discussing that tarmogoyf is good in CbTop ?
-Team Laval !-
Anusien:
I wouldn't be surprised if Basilisk Collar isn't part of it. Really, it's just been something I've been trying out. If it only cost 1 to equip I'd be a much bigger proponent.
----
On Zoo:
Let me start off by saying that Zoo is not a difficult matchup for this deck, or indeed this archetype. In fact, that's one of the main reasons to go this route instead of the Natural Order route. You have Spell Snares and Swords to take care of their Pridemages and Goyfs. Then you have Counterbalance to blank their removal, and later to lock them out. The fact is Zoo usually NEEDS to remove your Tarmogoyfs in order to win, and if they can't do that, they lose. Shackles also beats their entire deck unless they can remove it.
------
On Tarmogoyf:
The face of Legacy hasn't really changed that much since the adoption of goyf. Especially with this deck/archetype, a surprising amount of matchups still come down to who gets the most mileage out of their tarmogoyfs. It's for this reason that I value Spell Snare so highly right now. Further, there aren't very many other options available. I've played with Bitterblossom, and found it to be too slow for the format. Landstill uses Wrath of God, amongst other tricks, and that deck hasn't put up results in a long time. Relying on Firespout is obviously not going to pan out when the opponent has Tarmogoyfs, and Perish--while awesome--is much too narrow. As I said, I simply do not see any other card or cards in magic that are capable of doing what goyf does as efficiently as goyf does it.
Sure, he's not brilliant against Merfolk, Goblins, Reanimator, or ANT. That said, the latter two of those decks are favorable matchups that prey on the Goblins players. Merfolk itself is a better matchup than goblins, and is handled with sideboard trump cards such as Llawan or Firespout.
If you have ideas, though, by all means tell us what they are. There's a not-insignificant chance I've already tried many of them.
The scorn in this thread on my posts cracks me up.
A) Yes, I'm really discussing cutting Tarmogoyf. He was always sort of the worst card in the maindeck anyway; you basically had to run him because he was the best threat we had, and you needed to answer opposing Goyfs. That need has gone away significantly. Goblins and other CB Goyf decks are on the way out. Merfolk and Reanimator and other decks are on the way in.
B) Yes, I am sort of discussing cutting all the creatures. Trinket Mage is an exception because you don't really care if he dies. The problem with Goyf is that because you need it to survive, you're obligated to fight off opposing Path to Exile, Warren Weirding, Diabolic Edict, etc. With Trinket Mage, you just tutor up some Engineered Explosives or Sensei's Divining Top, and you're perfectly happy to let it bite Path to Exile. All you really want to do with Trinket Mage anyway is trade him off at the first available moment. He's somewhat worse against Merfolk, this is true.
C) The problem with creatures, and this is sort of discussed in B but let me make it clear, is that you depend on them. If you run 10 guys to be your defense, if they're not doing their job, you're going to lose. If you build your deck without having creatures in mind and they get Pathed, that's fine. But let's face it, Zoo is set up to beat a single Tarmogoyf nowadays. So if your plan depends on blocking with Tarmogoyf, you get into trouble if they're prepared for Tarmogoyf.
Run Tarmogoyf if you want, and it'll probably be fine. But Zoo decks are already prepared for a Countertop list that looks like this, and you can't even count on winning the mirror anymore. Half the lists have Progenitus who owns you and the other half have Humility/Moat which also owns you.
Also, the put up or shut up comment is funny because I already posted what I think Counter-Top decks should look like almost a week ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post454145
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
That point is actually totally valid.Well, you shouldn't play any creatures because zoo can always path them and because islandwalk can pass through them!
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
A local player where I live (Montreal) has had success with the following build. I'm posting it here to inform you guys, but don't count on me to debate card choices... just food for thought.
Mathieu Tremblay (CounterTop Goyf)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Hibernation
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Oblivion Ring
I play this version of countertop control. I decided thought to use Intuition in the deck.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty rainforest
4 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Life from The Loam
1 Scroll Rack
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Etched Oracle
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
Board
3 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spell pierce
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
With lots of creature based decks running arround 4 Sweepers 5 singel target removals main deck, and nothing against creautres in the board. With so much removal the counter outside of counterbalance dont go for creatures unless they really do need to do so. I do believe Jace belongs in the deck. He searches for answers, he bbounces creatures that entered play before counterbalance, doesnt die to the deed. And can win the game by taking control over what your opponent will draw, after a while ultimate abiltie and its win. If against wastelands, that means just need to fetch more green and get the loam running to counter them. Recurring sweepers in form of Acedemy ruins+EE, recurring single removal in form of Volrath+Fleshbag. Reason i chose fleshbag instead of shriekmaw is simple, 3cc is better then 5cc for counterbalance and it hits black, shroud and protection creatures. And able to put witness in to graveyard if its stuck in play.
Anusien has a really good point. Lone Tarmogoyfs aren't good enough anymore. They were good at GP Chicago when Nassif won with a deck designed to steal the other guy's lone Goyf and then win with your two Goyfs, but since then every deck is designed to beat that plan, much like every deck has a way to beat Counterbalance now.
1) Merfolk can evade Tarmogoyf with Islandwalk or tap him down Rejeerey.
2) Zoo can win Tarmogoyf wars with Exalted, burn spells post-combat, and Path.
3) NO Counterbalance can beat Tarmogoyf with Exalted and Progenitus.
4) Reanimator can beat Tarmogoyf by Reanimating by turn two.
5) Storm doesn't care about Tarmogoyf unless you land one on turn one and get in for at least 8+ damage by turn three.
6) Dredge actively wants you to block and kill their creatures with Tarmogoyf.
Tarmogoyf is "just okay" these days. There are so many ways to answer him, many of which are part of the design of the opposing decks themselves, that you really need a backup plan. The "Lone Goyf and creature theft" plan hasn't been viable since Reborn came out, and it baffles me that there are still people who haven't gotten that memo.
I tend to agree with you, I'd say either you go with more creatures and NO or less creatures, a more landstill-ish shell and Thopter-Meek. I don't see other viable alternatives currently being played right now.Tarmogoyf is "just okay" these days. There are so many ways to answer him, many of which are part of the design of the opposing decks themselves, that you really need a backup plan. The "Lone Goyf and creature theft" plan hasn't been viable since Reborn came out, and it baffles me that there are still people who haven't gotten that memo.
To those advocating Trinket Mage, what answers to current problematic MUs does he bring ?
- Blocking: this is relevant in every matchup where your opponent's primary plan is to win with groundpounders. As a slow control deck, you can't afford to be loose with your life total.
- Pithing Needle: Lands (manlands, Wasteland, Barbarian Ring), Merfolk (Vial, Jitte, lands), Counterbalance (Top, maybe other cards like Pridemage), Zoo (Pridemage, Lavamancer).
- Engineered Explosives: Zoo (1, 2), Counterbalance (2), Merfolk (1, 2, 3), Storm (0), Dredge (0), Aggro Loam (0, 2, 3).
- Relic of Progenitus: Zoo (Tarmogoyf), Lands (Life from the Loam, Mindslaver), Dredge (Game Plan).
- Aether Spellbomb: Reanimator (Iona), those Sneak Attack decks (Emrakul).
- Sensei's Divining Top: Generally good.
- Artifact lands: Generally good.
Also, please with this "3 Sensei's Divining Top" nonsense. It is the best turn one play. You need two for the full lock. If for some reason you don't want to draw multiples, you can use the first one to, you know, not draw multiples. You can also Brainstorm it back. I mean.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Aggo_Zombies, thanks for the explanation. I tend not to go with Trinket because I find him slow but you make a good case for me to test it. That being said, Merfolk still seems like a pain in the butt.
Agreed. If you draw multiples, you can always cast them and use them to draw + fetch them away.
Thopter Foundry made redundant Tops even better, because you can tap them for a card and then turn them into a Thopter.
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Well, yeah, but you're playing a control deck in Legacy. You're not going to have any blowout matchups in your favor (at least, not among the Tier I and Tier 1.5 decks), and most of the matchups you win are going to be close probably about 85% of the time.
Trinket Mage is good because it's a warm body in a deck that sorely needs them in the mid-game, and it adds consistency, which is absolutely necessary to be successful with control.
Meant to be sarcastic.
I don't understand why people are telling others to cut creatures in this topic. What kill do you want to have in this deck ? Thopter-Meek ? If so, they should post it in the Countertop Thopter topic, not here.
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