I'm currently typing at the hotel computer, so I don't have time to expand on how mind-boggling ridiculously format-wrecking this deck is in all it's splenderifirous glory is before I leave to catch my taxi to the airport in... seven minutes.
Feel free to speculate. Or just build the damned thing and win games.
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
11x Swamp
4x Cabal Coffers
3x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Mutilate
3x Decree of Pain
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
3x Staff of Domination
3x Gaea's Blessing
2x Crime/Punishment
SB:
4x Infest
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chains of Metistophiles
4x Grinning Demon
Edit: -1 Mire, -1 Overgrown Tomb, +2 Swamp, -4x Putrefy, -1 Chainer's Edict, +3 Decree of Pain, +2 Crime/Punishment, +Decided Sideboard
Edit: Dual-Land Draft list; 6th place;
Quick tournament summary;
Here's my list;
4x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Cabal Coffers
10x Swamp
The Disruption:
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
The Board Control:
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Mutilate
3x Chainer's Edict
3x Putrefy
2x Decree of Pain
The Utility:
3x Regrowth
3x Staff of Domination
The Kill:
3x Helldozer
2x Haunting Echoes
Sideboard:
4x Infest
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Haunting Echoes
3x Undead Gladiator
2x Persecute*
1x Decree of Pain*
* Should've been Nether Voids, but Alix is a big phony.
The gameplan is to slowly dismantle your opponent's board. Matchups are something like;
Goblins- Unfavored (40%, maybe). -4 Duress, -3 Chainer's Edict, +4 Infest, +1 Haunting Echoes, +2 Undead Gladiator (or +1 Undead Gladiator, +1 DoP in the suboptimal board). The problem is the repeating hordes of men coming at you, and the relative slowness of board clearers. The post game plan is to keep the board clear for a while and then send off a hopefully devastating Echoes that shuts down their future plans of mayhem. Edit: After further testing, 45% is probably more accurate. The matchup isn't that unfavored. It's hard to tell if Punishment is better or worse than Putrefy in this matchup. It certainly kills Warchief a lot less effectively. It might be correct to side out Staff of Domination over Chainer's Edict, at least when one is on the play, as it gives an answer to turn 1 Lackey. On the draw it's probably better to keep Staff in, i.e., game 3.
Threshold- Favored (90%). Sideboard probably unnecessary, but probably -1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Helldozer, +1 Haunting Echoes, +1 Undead Gladiator. Everything in your deck is a must counter for them, and you literally run more creature kill than they have creatures. It is, incidentally, perfectly acceptable to Mutilate or Deed for one target in this matchup, although you'd prefer not to target Werebear as he and Pithing Needle are your only Putrefy targets in the White builds. The Red build is slightly more dangerous- perhaps only 85%- game 1, as they can randomly burn you out, but less dangerous games 2/3 as they don't have access to Armageddon.
Solidarity- Unfavored (25%). You have way too many dead cards game 1. Sideboard is -4 Deed, -3 Mutilate, -3 Chainer's Edict, -1 Putrefy, +4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Haunting Echoes, +3 Nether Void, +3 Undead Gladiator. Putrefy is specifically the one dead card you keep in over others, even though they're probably all equally dead, as some terrible builds of Solidarity have a transitional sideboard into Chant-Stick. You could keep Deed in if they have the terrible transitional board into Confinement lock, but Confinement doesn't stop you from playing out Helldozer/Void/Sphere to just lock them out of winning anyway. Games 2 and 3 are much more favorable, at any rate, although not auto-win enough to make it a good matchup despite the loss of game 1.
Deadguy Ale- Not very thorough testing, but a negative matchup. LD hurts. A primary reason to consider boarding Compost or Skyshroud Blessing.
Rifter- Autowin. It's like Gro, only you have a shit load of answers to it. Except it doesn't matter, because you can kill all of their handful of kill conditions really easily, and they can't deal with shit tons of discard + Haunting Echoes. Sideboard: -2 Mutilate, -2 Putrefy, +3 Undead Gladiator, +1 Haunting Echoes.
Iggy Pop- 35% Pre-board, this is tough but not unwinnable. If you can get an Echoes or a Helldozer active before they get a lategame IGG you can win, obviously trying to keep up early game discard. Games 2 and 3 are very favorable, as the deck is much worse at fighting through or countering Void/Sphere than Solidarity. Nether Void essentially wins if it resolves.
Landstill- 98% Draw land and you're good. The closest thing to a danger is Crucible of Worlds, if they're still running it in their build. Assuming a lack of Wasteland recursion, it's very difficult for you to lose. They can't go aggro, and the board progressively turns better in your favor. Decree of Pain certainly kicks their ass, even if most of the cards they drew off of Standstill weren't going to be dead anyway. Even if they have the Wastelands, you can still play out a Coffers the turn you want to go double discard/Echoes for the win and just use it as a temporary mana boost.
Random Junkz- 85%. The salt of the earth. It's amazing just how few rogue decks have any shot in Hell of beating Train Wreck, which largely comes down to the fact that most rogue decks fall into the category of either.
a) Rolling over and dying to lots of creature hate,
or
b) Rolling over and dying to discard + Echoes.
Last edited by TheInfamousBearAssassin; 08-08-2006 at 06:56 PM.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Hmm..
I am gonna trust you IBA, but i have to say that this does look kinda janky. And yet, so consistent and powerful in some way. Like, every card you draw is a threat or removal of threats. I like.
I really, really like this, but i have a couple of questions:
1) Why Helldozer? I mean, I am sure there is some better win condition...
2) Staff of Domination?
- Mordenkain
@ Mordenkain: I tested very much with this deck (Monoblack) and it beats Gro and Goblins preboard until they side in Armageddon. The Staff of Domination is key to the deck, no doubt. Test it, you will love it.
@IBA:
- Helldozer MD is bad. It gives your opponents swords, Wrath etc. useful cards. This is not extended, where no one can deal with a big creature.
- WTF are you thinking about removing Skeletal Scrying??? That's not the way to go, Scrying is so good.
- Consume Spirit: I always found it useful because of the lifegain, and because it kills your opponent
I really like this deck, I've had a similar build of it for a few weeks now based off the Richmond PTQ winning deck. Any reason the Decree of Pains were dropped from your list? I really liked them a lot in testing.
Tonight I will be playing a heavily modified version of the deck, hopefully it pans out. These are the changes I have made for tonight:
-2 Haunting Echoes (felt like a win-more card most of the time, but I do like the card a lot with mass removal like this deck)
-4 Hymn to Tourach (really good against control, but my meta has no control. I would rather have more creature hate here in MN)
-3 Regrowth (I never really tried this, has it been good so far?)
-2 Fetch Lands (I really didn't like topdecking land after land)
-1 Helldozer (only because I only own two, otherwise it would totally be in there)
+1 Staff (I always felt like I needed a Staff when I didn't have one)
+2 Masticore (some good stuff when you have Coffers in play)
+4 Solemn Simulacrum (gives you a land and replaces itself, only testing a slot)
+1 The Abyss (I own one, seemed like it could fit with the Masticores and Jens, I guess we'll see)
+2 Decree of Pain (I liked this from the PTQ deck, figured I would keep it in)
+2 Consume Spirit (random "I win" and some life gain if needed)
Again, I'm not proposing these changes to the deck since they are fairly significant, I'm just testing them out. I really like the deck though.
How do you beat Goblins with this thing? All that expensive, sorcery speed spot removal plays against you.
Is this deck for a Thresh heavy meta or something? It would tear Thresholds face off. So much damn removal. So much goodness.
And WTF @ Staff of Domination? Is it there just to be a sink for Coffers?
Speaking of which, 4 Coffers? Are they really that integral to the deck that you would risk possible mana screw?
And lastly, did you make this deck just to show off your new Textless Putrefies? :P
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
Interesting, very interesting. I'd like to see a few more tools for dismantling combo in there, but otherwise, very nice. One question though: Why Helldozer? It seems like Kokusho or something would be better, and Consume Spirit has always been good in black decks, especially ones with 4x Cabal Coffers like your own.
Unlike most other huge black threats, Helldozer disrupts the opponent so that they have little-no mana and that makes it difficult or even impossible for them to stabilize, come back, and win. Plus, it is a fucking HELL DOZER. That name is what pushes it over the edge. Intimidation ftw!
Originally Posted by dsg123456789
Helldozer is great.When it comes down you have 6 mana so the turn after it comes it usually knocks down 2 lands and at the same time it will deal 6 damage(mostly to a player since you cleared their board anyway).
I tested a similiar black control deck and I wanted to post it to CaND but then I decided to post Slumpy(mono black stompy) instead because I found that it was better during my testing.But instead of green I splashed Red for Burning wish and combined it with Shred Memory(it is like a 3 CC part-Diabolic Tutor which can also remove essential cards in graveyards..up to 4!).Getting Hymns against Control and Pyroclasms against aggro is hot.Boarding out one of them for more Disruption/Creature removal makes it even more funny.
@IBA:Do you have an obsession to slow decks with fat bombz?
Could Living Wish be good in this deck? I'm currently a big fan of Grave-Shell Scarab (friends call him "Untouchable") and there are always plenty of sweet ass utility creatures to wish up.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
I thought about Living Wish, but I'm not particularly fond of dismantling the board.
Regrowth has been absolutely amazing in this deck. It ups the number of discard effects, creature kill, or kill conditions as the situation dictates. It's what Twincast is to Solidarity.
Helldozer, as others correctly pointed out, is the only efficently costed Black threat with a disruption ability (aside from Visara, and I feel that the deck already has enough md creature kill). With Consume Spirits, for instance, I often discovered that against Solidarity I would be unable to do anything lethal with them before they could recover from discard. Helldozer can keep them off mana after a barrage of discard spells. You can even untap him with Staff.
Staff, incidentally, has been a great, versatile mana sink for a deck that generates ludicrous amounts of mana. It's a must-counter for control decks. I've used every function on it many times over.
re, Dr. Ugs: Yes.
Decree of Pain was omitted by accident. I'd want to run at least two. Putrefy is an easy cut to a 3-of, but the second cut is more difficult. I'm currently experimenting with -4 Duress, -1 Putrefy, +3 Wrench Mind, +2 Decree of Pain, as Wrench Mind is much stronger against Goblins, as hitting an Aether Vial is it's worst play, not it's best.
Threshold is essentially an auto win. So is almost any deck packing Wrath of God and Swords to Plowshares. Goblins is much more difficult, but not untenable with 7 ways to clear the board of red men by turn 4.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Speaking of the sideboard how's that looking. After I see that I will make up my mind on whether or not an Extended deck with Duals will fly in Legacy.Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
What matchups is Putrefy good in?
It seems like the card that's always useful, but is never good enough.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
IDK I might want Putrefy G2 against a lot of decks when they are like Pithing Needle naming Deed.Originally Posted by Slay
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Didn't you t8ed that thing in some Extended thingy? I swore it was you. If you did, I love it (yeah, I netdecked it)... Helldozer's fun in Extended...Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
He T1'd a PTQ in extended.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Well I feel like a dick being the only one to give negative feedback.
How do you survive goblins at all? Drawing Bayous and Coffers early on and/or in multiples is going to be very bad for you against Wastelands and Ports. Which I assure you, I still play.
You have absolutely 0 ways to handle a turn 1 lackey. You have almost no turn 2 answer since Edict = shit against gobs. Then on turn 3 you can give a timewalk with Deed, or kill a single gob with Putrefy. Am I missing something?
As cool as Helldozer is, I'd assume starting game with him in hand is like taking a Mulligan. Couldnt Echoes be enough of a win condition?
Finally, is green truely needed? It seems Regrowth would be fine as Nights Whisper or Phyrexian Arena, and Putrefy could become Innocent Blood. You already have Deed to deal with artifacts, except needle on deed....
I would love to open a large scale discussion on MBC because theres no reason it cant be played right now. Especially if Rifter continues popularity. Since your already playing green, have you put any thought on running Life from the Loam and a land based strategy? Instead of coffers you can play Lake of the Dead, which sometimes gives rediculous amounts of mana in no time at all. Then of course you have cycling lands as your amazing draw engine.
Last edited by Bane of the Living; 03-11-2006 at 03:54 PM.
Now playing real formats.
The deck beats Goblins by keeping the board clear. That's the entire game plan. It doesn't deal with turn 1 Lackey because it's more concerned about the things Lackey puts into play. Mutilate + Deed (which require Green mana, you're aware) is the deck's game plan, backed by Echoes, Helldozer, Staff, and trying to keep the hoard down. It's not a favorable game 1 matchup, but it's not unwinnable. 4 Plague in the Sideboard is helpful, however.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
No one seemed to answer my original question. What is Putrefy doing in the maindeck?
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Ok a few things. This deck looks very good, I can see where its Goblin matchup may be a little slow, but a turn 3 turn 4 deed with the hand disruption critter control should give it enough of a boost. This deck has its props in extended, and will port well into Legacy most likly, but can it port to Standard or is the power of deed really the lynchpin of the deck and would it even be able to compete in standard?
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