The original answer I gave to this was incorrect. Perish is matchup dependant. Against goblins in my testing on the draw the best shot you have against it is daze, spell pierce was habitually too slow. If you attack them correctly they only have 3, and the likelyhood that they have it and your caught cold tends to be low. If you do get caught 50% of the time you should be dead anyways. The other 50% you get caught cold and it happens. Its apart of variance, deal with it. Cut them off of badlands if you can, play well, you should be fine.
In merfolk perish is the same idea, keep them off of it, you sideboard out less countermagic because the matchup is slower. You generally have more mana available, so choose wisely.
Last edited by mossivo1986; 02-09-2011 at 07:27 PM.
Quick tourney report:
Took the following
R1. Goblins Sam// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
G1 on the draw. I put him on Goblins because the sleeves look familiar to me and I note that he's new to Legacy. turns out i'm right, but not the model I thought it was. He's mono red on the play. He misses his vial/lackey start. I ponder into goyf math. Better lucky then good as Chris would say!
side
3 blast
3 path
4 daze 2 force
G2. He resolves a blood moon and i'm cold to it with no basics. Oops, ya got me bro!
G3. Open a hand with double noble qasali. Apply some pressure to put him at 8 with fetches etc. Drop a knight and pass (knights a 2/2) I block his alpha with knight and blast his instigator, take a billion. Crack back and drop him to 8. I then tilt him to alpha me with the ability to crack back for lethal in the back of my mind. He alphas, I chump with 2 nobles and block his chieften with knight. wasteland my trop, response crack it for wasteland. On my turn drop another wasteland, and crack in for billions.
R2. Kenta GW Aggro He wins the roll. This deck is the bane of all GW decks for me.
G1. He drops an early vial. Jitte on 2, avenger eot, equip and swing, and I catch him twitch for a second which indicates that hes got the flickerwhisp where my swords wants to go. I suck it up, and he eventually just overwhelms me. Not much ya can do.
side
3 needle 3 path
dont remember what I sided out. I think 4-2 again.
G2. He gets lucky with a double vial waste hand, misses a land drop and hits two while wasting me out. I needed a needle to cripple him. Oh well.
R3. Clements with Rock
G1. He plasters me with discard and threats. I just don't have the answers and I mulld to five on the draw.
side 3 path 1 snare
4 force
G2. Qasali fucking pridemage is a house. Beats the snot out of him while he plays weak threats, and tries to wastelock and destroy my hand.
G3. Apparently Qasali Pridemage also beats quad thoughtseize. Lotus cobra chumps late, but he can't dig a threat.
R4. ID with Piperzack playing New Horizons "teammate" he wins and ends up in first. <--- I've now paid you back, next time we do battle.
All in all, meh. Sucks losing to GW, but the deck is designed to kick the crap out of aggro control and aggro strategies. Nothing it can do against combo and control.
the new set should be interesting for this deck. It's got alot of game if another broken factor deck dominates for format, but spell pierce is terrible right now. I've been testing other decks like fetchland ddt for a while now and will probably be taking it to this weekly event as the meta is pretty cold to combo. Final record 2-1-1
Hey mossivo,
I know I may sound stupid for poiting out a card without much of reason, but have you tryed using predict? You use 8 brainstorms, and it's pretty much a draw 2 and remove a bad card from top.
As a made-up excuse to point the card out, buying more cards faster could help the midrange aggro matchup. :P
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Midrange aggro isn't the problem generally. GW aggro with mother of runes, flickerwisp eternal witness, and several other cards give this deck all it can handle.
I will second that comment. Even UW Tempo can manhandle this deck to no end. MoM + 3/3 vigilant Avenger + equipment is game over. The only way I can get out of that is by baiting MoM with swords and/or Maze of Ith.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Don't bring UW tempo into this thread. If I really cared about ever facing this matchup i'd play ee again, and the matchup would be a blowout. As it stands the matchup is in their favor preboard because they run mother of runes. Post board a combination of path and needle, or ee and path would due just fine and bring the matchup well in my favor.
No need to get your panties in a bunch amigo. No need to get all emotional about an objective evaluation.
The point is that Mother of Runes (WG Maverick, UW tempo, DnT, etc) can stop a lot of threats. Once you add Serra Avenger (same decks) and now they can race you and stop your attacks. These types of decks give removal-lite Bant a tough time.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Went to Indy this past weekend. Tournament report in the correct section on the source. Ended up 7-1-1 for the day, which ended up being 9th place. "snaps fingers."
Overall the new list was designed to have good matchups all over the place, and not be a dog to anything in particular except elf combo and tendrills combo (tendrills post board is pretty bad without cannonist.) The board was designed to handle goblins on the draw, and green and taxes in particular. The deck performed most of the time exactly how I wanted it to. I did scoop a couple of games do to mulligans, but the base is solid still. Added a zenith to increase density, and removed a ponder because drawing the 2 ponder brainstorm hand sucks monkey butt.
Link
Last edited by mossivo1986; 02-10-2011 at 11:37 PM.
Some additional information for the thread that I didn't really mention earlier.
New stuff available to us:
Leonin Relic-Warder. This guy is pretty sweet in a select few match ups. The double white in it's casting cost isn't really hard for this archetype obviously, but the body isn't really all that great for us. Against vial decks more specifically merfolk this is clearly the best match up, but as that match up isn't impossible to us by a long shot, this guy really isn't all that playable for us. It also doesn't trump like we want it to, doesn't have much board presence at all really, so it didn't make it in the end.
Green Sun's Zenith. Initially I did a lot of testing with 2 of this card in place of a rhox and a ponder. I also added the arbor in place of a forest for noble's 5,6. On the draw against anything with spot removal and wasteland it's a virtual blowout against you, also drawing arbor elf against virtually anything is just aweful as it normally is. When I finally tested against zoo, that was really the end to the "package" deal, so I cut 1 zenith and the arbor, and have been quite happy since. One zenith really solves the multi ponder problem, while still giving you a shuffle effect, and gives you slightly better creature redundancy then you normally would have. In 0% of circumstances its also a shuffle tutor when you don't want to lose to decking.
Phyrexian Revoker. I liked it at first. Its a creature needle, something i've really wanted for a long time. The problem starts with it's ability. Not hitting Maze of Ith, as well as Port is a problem. Paul says it also costs too much, while I think it's ass is too small. In short, it's not quite what we wanted all around. Finish that off with artifact creature "I had to dream that this would be blue or white."
There wasn't a lot else for us to look at, but if you guys have any thoughts let me know.
Also for any of you looking at 4 zenith.dec, consider that spell pierce is a real card in this format; as well as daze. Not to mention that in order to do that you have to cut creature density, which is not something you want to do. It slows down many match ups like goblins, where your already a dog, and it's not something you want to be a dog against for some major event. All in all, really not playable in more then really small circumstances.
Played at GYGO tonight.
List
R1. Supreme blue: He wins the roll// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Plains (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Forest (1)
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
G1: Slower start, but multi waste, pierce action keeps him low on land. goyf beats him down.
2 Grip
1 Pierce
3 stp
G2: Another slow start, but I clean it up in the mid game with goyf qasali action.
Green zenith deffinately helps in this matchup. wish I could tutor for some utility other then just qasali as a one of.
R2: Stuart Supreme Blue: He wins the roll
G1. I mull to 6, he gets an early goyf lead, and rides it.
Same as before
G2. Live the hierarch dream into goyf action. He can't recoup from the resource denial.
G3. I feel like he's playing sower. I don't know why I don't check these stock lists more often... I get him to 3, he lands a jace, bounces me with 1 card in hand 2x, drops a sower, I get a rhox and offer him the draw as I dont think he has enough in 3 rounds to beat me, he eot's a clique grabbing my pierce, bounces my guy, killing his jace, lands another one, and the tempo is too much. Kills me on turn 5. Awkward.... Rhox war monk needs to get sided out in this matchup I think. Not sure yet, need additional testing as im splitting way too many matches with this deck currently.
R3: Green and Taxes Im on the play.
G1: He opens a pretty solid hand, but it doesn't include mother, so he dies soon to my meat and tempo.
2 jitte
3 path
2 needle
G2: He gets the game to a stall, at one point i'm sitting with 3 lands 3 goyf and a noble, 4 cards in hand 1 of them is a path, but I cant do anything to his double mother double qasali action. Man Im missing EE :)
G3: we have no time, but I want to play it out. I want the win. He scoops to me if I show him this list as he really likes it and wants to play bant. I agree.
R4: Rock ID
Practice games
G1: he takes this one, I flood out on a mull to 6 3 lands with noble. Awkward...
G2: My goyfs are bigger
G3: basic forest noble, into trips wasteland with pierce open to protect my only white blue source "noble". End up taking it with trips goyf.
T8:
Buddah Sneaky show he wins the roll
G1 island go, me live the dream, him land, exile mana bear, show and tell, me daze, him daze, I drop qasali, he drops progenitus.
Incorrect siding plan
G2: A long drawn out game where noble hierarch and his fetching ends up killing him over the long hall. He has to intuition for a pile of firespoutx2, show and tell because he cant cast sneak and have a second red open. I give him the spout. I win in the following 2 turns.
G3: He draws 2 ancient tombs which take him the distance against my non existent wastes. he produces enough mana and has double show. he shows me the missing member of his team for the first two games, which happens to have lots of tendrils. I scoop em up.
that metagame was very inbred for this deck to be successful. I really wanted to play a clique instead of rhoxy 3, but didnt get a chance to pick one up. Completely forgot about it too!!
Oh wells.
Thank you...I told you Rhox War Monk is crap. However, I also told you to play Vendilion Clique, which is excellent in this matchup. Just saying.Awkward.... Rhox war monk needs to get sided out in this matchup I think. Not sure yet, need additional testing as im splitting way too many matches with this deck currently.
Why are you bringing Jitte in against Death and Taxes? If they have a Swords you just lose.
The Show and Tell deck should be really favorable. Did you side out countermagic???
The metagame didn't look very inbred. Two Supreme Blue decks, Death and Taxes, Rock and Show and Tell. I think you sided wrong against Death and Taxes and am wondering what you sided against Show and Tell.
Test the matchups out.
So its been a long time since I posted in this thread. Heres an update
// Lands
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [B] Island (2)
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [PT] Natural Order
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Right now Junk is the worst matchup you can run into. In order to fix this we now play No out of the board. I'm used to playing 4x, but 3x looks better on paper for now plus it gives us a bit more space to work with. It's also invaluable against green and taxes.
Meddling mage is normally in the board currently, 3x in place of the cannonist's and a kataki. This package along with the fourth pierce should be enough to stop show and tell decks, along with tendrills combo. I am missing needle though, and I really want it alot.
Thrun is for supreme blue along with the pierce. It also gets boarded with the pierce and mages against landstill.
jitte for goblins and merfolk and elf combo. Grip for random decks.
All in all its coming together.
Went to the jace tourrney finishing 3-2-1 losing to junk and taxes and the gate, drew (should have lost) to teammate Draener playing 1 billion removal spells countertopthopter.
All in all i'm taking a break from the deck for a while to pick up counter top thopter, but I think the deck will have good position in the metagame soon.
Moss, nice list. Grats on the continued effort. I still prefered your SCG 9th place list with 1 GSZ. In fact, back at SCG Dallas, watching AJ Satcher resolve GSZ was for most parts back-breaking.
The only real problem with GSZ is that people playing GSZ are too concerned with cute things i.e. like playing 2 Goyfs or 2 Pridemages and playing singleton Trygon, Terravores. IMO this is a good strategy only if the deck is mid-ranged, but yet you see those lists playing both Stifles and GSZ.
I think GSZ is a really strong inclusion in your list. From your SCG list, I could not find a slot to fit the 2nd, and the singleton was great. I'm a fan of 3 knights v.s. 4 due to clunkiness when playing the tempo version of Bant. GSZ does solve the clunkiness of not playing the 4th knight while still providing the ability to fetch one when needed.
Was the 4th Ponder still good? I see more value in a singleton GSZ over the 4th Ponder. With your list, your permission/threats are fairly dense so I can see you get by with 1 less ponder.
Perish is very very solid in this metagame. I played with it in the Legacy challenge before the legacy SCG opens, and it felt completely unfair against GW decks. I would say that playing against Perish would involve tweaking concepts on tempo against matchups running Perish i.e. you can match board development with theirs but you don't have to maintain superior position at all times by wasting counters. You need to save those counters against the Perish that wrecks the deck. Junk is indeed tough because they are going to always keep you at low board/card development, so you are inclined to overextend, not to mention them stripping counters out of your hand.
I agree with 3 over 4 NO. You are playing Bant, you have more digging than other GW variants, so the 4th NO is clunky and bad.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
So I heard you boarded out the thopters draener, you fiend.
Metal. GSZ is a fine card. I wouldn't doubt anyone for playing it in multiples. I feel like its situationally better then ponder, but ponder remains the better card most of the time. When the meta is pretty aggressive with vial decks that dont run mother and qasali I feel gsz is better for us. When the meta is packed with junk and mother of runes I think its just time to play no out of the board. As it is now, I think gsz was the right call for that tournament, but overall just overkill.
Hump de bump!
New goodie in the new set:
Mental Misstep. Now we can counter StP/Bolt on our dudes. How will this fit into the deck?
I also wanted to add that I ran a UGw Tempo list in a 32 man Mox Sapphire tourney, and won. :d
I was using SFM to shore up the aggro matchup, as it was invaluable against Team America, then got lucky by not paired up against TES, and beat Dredge with some lucky draws.
I ran this list:
4 wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah (gonna try out Horizon Canopy in place)
8 Fetchlands
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
and 1 other that I don't remember. SB had Needles, G/y hate, Cliques/Karakas, 2 KGrips (never used), and some extra Spell Pierce/Dispel. I ran pretty hot, but Stifle ended up getting cut many of the games.
Last edited by Koby; 04-20-2011 at 06:30 PM.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
It is interesting to see how many, many topics are necroed due to the spoiling of Mental Misstep (don't take me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the card).
I think that Mental Misstep is mostly bad news for this deck since it runs so many 1cc spells, it especially screws with our mana by countering Noble Hierarch or that turn 1 Ponder I so often use to dig for a land. As for running it, I think I'll try a counter suite of 4 FoW, 2 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce and 3 Mental Misstep.
Originally Posted by GodzillA
It's not rocket surgery.
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