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Thread: [Deck] UGw Tempo

  1. #41
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    I should take my own advice and not feed the trolls, but whatever.

    Without Mom and Jitte UWT cannot deal with exalted. A Vendillion Clique will quickly outpace any flier UWT produces, and even a rhox gets bigger than any creature in UWT with a single exalted trigger (very very easy to do). Without UWT landing and sticking one of the 2 Jotun Grunts KotR and Goyf are going to be gigantic with or without exalted triggers. I play Jotun Grunt, I know how good and how weak he can be in different matchups, but against bant with exalted triggers he cannot block and live through a single attack step. The situation I refer to is when you top deck him against an aggro bant deck which should already have out at least 1 exalted trigger. Goyf gets to be a 4/5 long before you can reliably draw a Jotun Grunt.

    EE kills Mom. Any exalted trigger + decent beater kills 1 or more UWT creatures if Mom is out of the way. Jitte is then the most relevant card to turn bigger creatures into smaller creatures, which QPM or Needle or EE can handle. I can't confirm Mossi's results, but being as UWT is a deck that wins after a very drawn out period of time against decks like this one, 2 EE's are going to make a large impact. UWT's board is full of 1 or 2 drops, so an EE at any point in the game can cause a devastating board change.

    All of this is not to mention that UWT has relatively no sideboard against bant. Aura of Silence only shuts down EE's if the person casting the EE doesn't know how sunburst works.

    Seriously, how can you say that all of your creatures are so big when you have 4 at 4/4 who both die to themselves, 4 3/3's who can be matched or outraced by Cliques (exalted), and a myriad of 1 power underlings who make marginal card advantage? Card advantage is a horrible way to say what EE does by the way, because if your board consists of Weathered Wayfarer, two Fathom Seer, a Stoneforge Mystic, and a KotWO, you can't even deal with a single KotR. Bigger creatures completely negate literally 66% of your creatures who have 1 power. Turning off the way that they can deal with big creatures (Mom and Jitte) turns them into chump blockers.

  2. #42
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    ]mossivo1986, I love this deck. I have been testing my own version on MWS and I am trying to pick up the cards in real life (hopefully i can make some trades at GP Columbus). I completely agree that this deck plays differently than bant aggro decks. Here is the deck I've been testing:
    I'm happy to see you hold an interest. Maybe we can test the mirror sometime? my aim is messenger is on the left side of your browser screen obv. Hit me up.

    1 [IN] Island
    1 [OD] Forest
    2 [A] Tundra
    3 [U] Tropical Island
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    4 [ON] Windswept Heath
    4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
    1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
    1 [OD] Plains
    4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
    3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    3 [NE] Daze
    3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
    3 [JGC] Stifle
    4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
    4 [MM] Brainstorm
    3 [LRW] Ponder
    How has Horizon's been treating you? It seems like a cute trick, but honestly the only lands I would consider would be sejjiri steppe, Bajoka Bog, and a list of other sub-optimal cards. But it may work for you. Let me know how it tests.

    QPM needs to be 4x. It's the best creature in the deck.

    I like add. knights but I don't like cutting rhox or vendillion. Both are very strong cards as well, and create situations where knight is just an attacker/blocker with no real game impact against mass creature arch-types like Goblins, merfolk, etc. etc.

    I believe if you look on the primer you will see the reason why stifle is not being run for our models. Maybe it works better for you then it has us?

    r opponent off of the board for much of the early game. I really love Knight of the Reliquary, but 4 may be too much and I am probably going to replace 1 0r 2 with Rhox war monk. How are vendilion cliques working for everyone? I haven't tested them yet but I may get around to it. Are they important for the deck?
    vendillion was M.V.P. in my last tourney. It's situationally amazing, or good, but never really bad. They offer evasion where your other threats have none. You will quickly find if you continue testing that vendillion without exalted triggers is a beating, with them it's one hell of a clock.

  3. #43
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.
    BBB

  4. #44
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Quote Originally Posted by deadlock View Post
    Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.
    I agreed with your post.

    Your build is solid obviously, and while I can't force you to play the creature utility package in the md, I certainly hope you try it. I also think you should cut 1 pierce and fill that fourth pridemage.

  5. #45
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    @mossivo1986
    I haven't tested horizon canopy much because i rarely get the one in my deck. Because I'm jus ttesting the deck I think Im going to add a second so that I get it more so I can see how it works.
    All of your suggestions make sense and were supported with persuasive arguments. But when trying to follow your suggestions and changing up my deck i came up with a deck almost identical to yours. It may be the optimal build, but while trying to develop a new archetype it doesnt really make sense for everyone to be running identical decks, right? For this reason I am going to leave in the stifles and 4 knights and continue to test them. I am going to put in the fourth pridemage though. I really don't know why I only had three in to begin with.
    And maybe we can test the mirror after i'm done with school. Right now finals are trying to destroy me


    Quote Originally Posted by deadlock View Post
    Mossivo i refered to your deck in the New Horizons thread, might be interesting for you. As i see it both decks are quite similiar, basically ugw tempo. NH is at one extreme end, which introduces some weaknesses, which i try to adress in my build. This brought me closer to your build, therefore i mention it.
    I agree that they are pretty similar. This deck just seems more streamlined and polished, though, which is why it originally caught my interest. I don't llike how reliant NH is on the graveyard. But, NH gave me the idea of running horizon canopies and the four knights. My version is kind of a mix of NH and W tempo thresh

  6. #46
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    I think it's important to note that I really wish I could run 4 knight. I feel like I am at a cross-roads with the current set of match-ups in the meta though.

  7. #47
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    I think the deck needs a new name. People don't get why I called it W_Tempo_Thresh. I tried No-Thresh but thats equally confusing. Theres a couple other names I came up with but I wanted to figure it out with you guys.

    I'm updating the primer. I've removed match-up analysis for the most part as there is a shift in the meta-game present and I don't want to give away anymore information in regards to sbing strategy. Atleast in the primer where all can obtain the information. I'd rather have people actually do some information and playtest the matchups as I have.

    This weekend I finished 2-1-1 in a small tournament with a tie against New Horizons, ran out of time, and a loss to zoo.

    I have also noticed zoo is much harder then my initial testing results showed. I am removing a blast in the sb for a single Rhox War Monk. I'm hoping this will help Improve the match-up.

  8. #48
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    mossivo, about the Zoo matchup: My first advice was to remove the Clique (at least from the maindeck) and replace it with a creature which is good in the Zoo matchup. As i read your card description in the primer, i realized that Clique serves the same role as Terravore in my list / New Horizon: An either evasive or trampling beater, which can break through even if the ground is stalled.

    With the deck strategy in mind, Terravore fullfills this role better / is stronger against aggresive decks, but lacks against control and combo. The latter too are not that concerning, there other strong anti combo cards in the deck and control is nearly not existent.

    As i said before, give the more "synergistic" version a try, Knight is insane and Terravore too. My list looks very close too yours, except slightly different creature base, mana base and i want to test Stifle in the Spell Pierce slot.

    I hope that the New Horzion people will realize how powerful Noble Hierach is, especially if you consider the 8 "mana disadvantage card": Daze and Waste, together with 6+ 3cmc cards.
    BBB

  9. #49
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Finished 3-3 today. First time i've ever finished outside of t4 with this deck. Akward....

    r1. MU Fae (with 8 manlands)

    g1. He drops a relatively early standstill, and I let it resolve. My hand builds with no lands 2x daze, 2x force 3x stp. I draw goyf and he snares. We contrinue slow rolling and he ends up on top because I cant draw lands, and I didn't force vial when I should have. I feel like an idiot Facepalm.

    g2. He drops another early standstill and I immidiately break. He hits 3x force and slow rolls me. Overall this matchup was more that I drew 5 threats over the entire match and 3 of them were countered, the other 2 were noble hierarch..... Aggrivating.

    r2. Affinity. BLOW OUT city.

    r3. New age rock.

    g1/g2. x3 goyf game1. x3 bob, 1x knight 2x goyf game 2. I can't keep up. Should have sided in ee. I put him on bgw aggro loam but sided incorrectly. More aggrivating.

    r4 Affinity. Look ma, I dreamcrushed an arch-type today!

    r5 ANT. g1 he lives the dream t1 into my force. G2. I draw very well seeing double pierce double daze force. Behind double noble rhox it takes me all the way.

    r6. Goblins No splash.
    g1 Mull to 5. I hate doing that.
    g2 Mull to six, he resolves triple ringleader triple matron. I hear when you cast demonic tutor 3 times in a game you should win. ... I almost stabilize but he incinerators my rhox. Bad beats....


    I deffinately could have played alot tighter today. the matchups I lost (besides goblins) could have played out dramaticly different had I not played like I was retarded. It sickens me how bad I played actually. oh well.

    1 more shot at byes next week. Ill let yall know.

  10. #50
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Played the deck yesterday and I made Top 4 (wrote a small report in the appropriate section).

    It is really awesome and every card did what it was supposed to do (only Explosives were rather unimpressive).

    That said the deck seems to mulligan quite a bit. Is this normal or was I just unlucky? Obv it was not that much of a big deal since even with 6 cards you have a good shot, since the deck contains lots of business and the cantrips to find it, but randomly loosing games because you had to mull down too much seems rather unexciting =).

    But well, I will put the deck on my "play again" list, I sure had a blast.
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    Well you can expect whatever you want but you'd only expect what you said if you were retarded.

  11. #51
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Sometimes the deck mulligan's harder. But thats the bear of playing the landbase we are running. Noble hierarch is meant to help with these problems.

  12. #52
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Quote Originally Posted by mossivo1986 View Post
    I think the deck needs a new name. People don't get why I called it W_Tempo_Thresh. I tried No-Thresh but thats equally confusing. Theres a couple other names I came up with but I wanted to figure it out with you guys.
    Some names i thought of were blue zoo, tempo bant, safari tempo (no idea why, but sounds kinda cool), goyfTempo. I kinda like no-thresh, too.
    I am currently preparing for gp columbus and i won't be playing this (can't afford the deck by then) so i might put it on hold for a bit but i will try to continue to test it on mws occasionally.

    Also, dont you think that adding one or two more fetches could help out with the mana base? It gets you what you need and it helps out knights (which im running four of). Its tough to find room for it but i think it may be possible to cut the singleton plains. And i run twenty land instead of 19

  13. #53
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Honestly I believe the mana-base balanced very well. I would consider adding another land before I cut one of the basics. The basic lands in this deck are quite essential in fighting certain match-ups.

  14. #54

    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Just call it UGW Tempo

  15. #55
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Sounds good to me. UGw Tempo. Also i've been testing counterspell in the board, and it's been fairing really well.

  16. #56
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Quote Originally Posted by mossivo1986 View Post
    Sounds good to me. UGw Tempo. Also i've been testing counterspell in the board, and it's been fairing really well.
    What did you cut for counterspell?

    Also, when is this getting moved to Established? It looks like its putting up a lot of good results.
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  17. #57

    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Playing Counterspell is like begging to get raped by Daze and/or Spell Snare. Why are you keeping two blue open in a tempo deck? If you're changing to the control role post-board, why? The point of the "transformational" sideboard isn't to change roles but to change the way in which we gain tempo in given matchups. What matchups are Counterspell for?

  18. #58
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Landstill, non blue disruption decks IE eva green bw pikula etc. Combo (additional protection) Its proved quite usefull.

  19. #59

    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    Landstill can be dicey no matter what you sideboard because if it's built right, Landstill is designed to beat up on creature decks. That said, with the speed of the creatures, mana denial and cheap or free countermagic, Landstill isn't a huge favorite by any means. I wouldn't even board in this matchup unless you want to take out Swords for the E.E.s you play in the board.

    I'm telling you the Bx decks suck. Just keep hands with early countermagic or Brainstorm and you'll be fine. Relic of Progenitus is a beating against them. You play six "Swords" post-board. They play pointless cards like Hymn to Tourach. Also, you're not going to have positive expectation against combo with a single Counterspell. A single Canonist is much stronger. Even a Gaddock Teeg would be stronger than Counterspell.

    Remember, you gain tempo when you inhibit your opponent from advancing his gameplan while advancing your own at the same time. Holding up mana instead of actively hurting your opponent neither gains tempo (it actually makes you lose immense tempo) nor is particularly effective at interacting with an opponent unless your deck is designed to do so.

    People need to stop thinking that one-for-ones are going to shore up unfavorable matchups. If you're a dog in a certain matchup you're going to have to make up for lost mainboard value. One-for-ones just don't do that. While having Counterspell in your hand might make you feel safer, it's not good enough and won't make the impact you want it to. It looks like a card that was thrown in because you didn't know what to play and it's a catch-all.

  20. #60
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    Re: W_Tempo_Threshhold

    I understand. I think i'm going to play some combination of grip/ee this weekend. I see both mother of runes and Humility in the metagame at hand.

    also yay we've been promoted?

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