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Thread: [Deck] UGw Tempo

  1. #81
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    aznepyon7
    So one thing that really differentiates NH from UGW Tempo is the use of hierarch.
    Along with many other differences, but another notable difference is qasali pridemage.

    I don't play UGW Tempo but I do play NH. An ideal start for me would be stifling a fetchland followed by a wasteland while it looks like here Noble hierarch is probably the preferred play?
    Noble Hierarch is a blow out. The most amazing play is to lead with turn one Hierarch, Daze your opponent's spell and still play a Tarmagoyf on turn two. Hierarch makes you largely immune to Wasteland and develops your mana so well that you can play Wasteland yourself. The combination of Hierarch, Daze and Wasteland is the reason to play the deck. Exalted triggers are the nuts. They make you win 'goyf standoffs, make your evasive Cliques bigger than they would normally be in order to race decks with Tombstalker, make your Rhox War Monks insane(r), etc.

    I have many questions about this deck, but one of my main is why early hierarch over stifle?
    Stifle is a hit or miss card. I've never been happy with it in a deck. The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetchland to Stifle. Your opponent just gained tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetchland. Besides, when people see Daze and/or Wasteland they're probably assuming you play Stifle or playing around it just in case you do anyway.

    Also how well is this doing against Cat Sligh Zoo (steppe lynx) and Traditional Zoo (FoG/KoR/Helix)?
    Zoo traditionally has the advantage pre-board. Our sideboard address zoo correctly so post board you should be favored.

    routlaw
    I haven't tested the deck against Zoo. I would say that if I was playing in a heavy Zoo meta or at a 5k/GP (which will be a heavy zoo environment) I would strongly suggest the blue blasts in the board. You really want to have extra removal/cheap counters to burn with this deck. Grim Lavamancer in particular seems especially troublesome.
    I've tested this theory many times and it's incorrect. The way to address this match-up is through creature removal, not tempo.

    When playing this deck , it's easy to dismiss it since it doesn't do any of the really "broken" kind of plays that Legacy is known for. It just puts dudes on the table, counters important things (hence the spell pierces over snares. Creatures will not beat you) and swings for damage. It's subdued, yes, but every card in the deck is extremely efficient and powerful and the cards all work very well with each other.
    QFT

  2. #82

    Re: UGw Tempo

    Went 3-1 in matches at my local tournament today, with the only game losses occurring in the final match.

    Here's my list:


    Lands 19
    2x Misty Rainforest
    2x Flooded Strand
    2x Windswept Heath
    3x Tundra
    3x Tropical Island
    1x Forest
    1x Island
    1x Plains
    4x Wasteland

    Creatures 18
    4x Noble Hierarch
    4x Tarmogoyf
    4x Qasali Pridemage
    1x Rhox War Monk
    2x Vendilion Clique
    3x Knight of the Reliquary

    Permission 11
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    3x Spell Pierce

    Draw/Cantrip 8
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder

    Removal 4
    4x Swords to Plowshares


    My sideboard was:


    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Engineered Explosives
    3 Path to Exile
    1 Rhox War Monk
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Meddling Mage


    Would have preferred the Samurai of the Pale Curtain tech but didn't have them.

    Basically the primer list with an extra Knight subbed for a War Monk, as generally my meta has less Zoo/Goblins and more combo and control decks.

    Match 1 : versus Reliquary Stax (W 2-0)

    G1: I get a nut draw with two Hierarchs and beaters after a mull to six. He won the roll, but didn't get turn 1 trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. He was one turn too slow and died to exalted Goyf beats right before he could stabilize with Kor Haven, Wasteland recursion, Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle.

    I brought in the Krosan Grips to fight Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void.

    G2: I got a good hand with a Hierarch, again he had no T1 disruption play of Chalice@1 or Trinisphere. I got down creatures and Vendilion Clique robbed him of the Armageddon he was going to cast after he had a Magus of the Tabernacle out. Clutch play, he would have stabilized with Tabernacle effect+2 Ghostly Prisons the turn after I killed him.

    Match 2: versus Merfolk (W 2-0)

    G1: No T1 vial, swords hit a leveled Coralhelm commander halfway through. Pridemages and Goyf got in the beats and wasteland on a mutavault kept him mana constrained enough for me to run him over with bigger creatures. I see a Jitte late but a Pridemage eats it.

    I wanted to point out that this deck seems to have game against Merfolk from the games I played. Especially after board, you have enough removal and attacking with one creature only is very good in this matchup. You can also have Knight eat away your islands if you need an out to Lord of Atlantis, but it wasn't needed here.

    I board out the forces and two other cards (don't remember), board in 3 Path to Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives and a Rhox War Monk. I felt that this significantly improved the matchup in my favor-outside of him resolving Kira, it was going to be hard for Merfolk to stick the Lords they need to compete in the creature department.

    G2: I get a steady flow of good creatures throughout the match, and stop an early Standstill with a Spell Pierce. He gets some nice Stifles against Pridemages trying to blow up Jitte, but I wind up getting it eventually and he barely is able to get through any damage all game due to my removal. 5/6 exalted War Monk puts the game out of reach and he scoops two turns later.


    Match 3: versus non-LED Ichorid (W 2-0)

    The local Ichorid pilots are really good, and they hate playing me since I basically change my GY hate every week. Today was only a little different, but I had packed a couple of surprises from the board.

    G1: He mulls to five, I spell pierce a turn 1 careful study and he has to draw up to 8 to discard before he can start dredging thanks to a T2 Wasteland. In the meantime, I am not finding much creatures-only a fistful of permission- but have a Hierarch+Goyf is getting in for 3 for a few turns. He eventually gets going but I am able to counter his business and race him before he can really get anything going.

    G2: He dumps his hand on turn 2 with a Breakthrough for 1 without a dredger in the yard. I put him on Chain of Vapor or Pithing Needle in hand, and let it resolve since I have an opener with Tormod's Crypt. Next turn I Vendilion Clique him mainphase, with the idea of getting him off his protection and into something useless in hand since he'll dredge with the draw (and then I'll show Tormod's Crypt). He has another Breakthough, I have him put it on the bottom, and he indeed Dredges a grave troll with the draw. I crypt him too early during my turn (dumb!) but he topdecks another Breakthrough and gets a Dredger in the yard after I blow the crypt.

    While he recovers Clique + exalted gets in and brings him down to 4.

    He starts to get going, and I see creatures but not a Knight for a while (to get bog) and not a Meddling Mage-Hierarch, Goyf and a second Clique. I wind up having to legend rule my own Clique to stop the Zombie army with Bridge triggers on the stack, but clique myself into Knight and then draw into Meddling Mage (Dread Return) and Knight two, which eventually gets big enough to block the 11/11 Grave Troll and Knight lets me nuke his yard wtih a Bojuka Bog tutor. He winds up decking himself.

    I always make one mistake or two versus Ichorid, but here thankfully it didn't matter too much.

    Match 4: versus Bant (not Natural Order/Progenitus) Counterbalance (L 1-2)

    G1: He drew more Knights and more useful cards than I did. I got him down to 9 off Pridemage beats but he stabilized with Knight-Goyf-Goyf and I couldn't draw cantrips to dig or creatures. They were there in the deck, just bad beats.

    G2: He keeps a land-light hand with Top, I grip top and wasteland him off white with Knight tutor. He scoops two turns later with no propsects of getting another land drop in time to recover.

    G3: More of the same of Game 1-he drew three Knights early and I couldn't draw into enough removal to deal with them. A weird thing here was that we both had one Knight out cycling 2 lands a turn into the GY, but he could do it longer since he had more land! Eventually he got two Knights out and I couldn't keep up, but that was after he already had assembled top/counterbalance.

    Edit: Important to note that if I was paying attention in G1 , I would have gone -1 Island, +1 Bojuka Bog and been able to tutor the bog during an attack by the CouterTop player for the blowout and win G3 with it. So chalk that match loss up to pilot error, not deck error. Sadly, I wasn't, and now I feel like I punted the match despite otherwise playing well.

    I think the matchup is about even-and he's a really, really good player to boot-and enjoyed the round immensely even though I lost.

    Deck is fantastic. I would not hesitate to run it at a 5K or at the GP over New Horizons. You will scare people to death with Noble Hierarch, as they immediately put you on ProBant, and they will proceed to board poorly and play around a card that isn't even in your deck. The deck doesn't roll over and die to Merfolk like most blue Tarmogoyf decks do, and has a good game against any combo deck. I am looking forward to playing it again at our local tournament, and wish I could take it to the GP (sadly I cannot make it-attending to family matters that weekend).

    I think I have some sideboard issues that I need to tweak (Mage and the extra Spell Pierce wasn't that good, would have liked another Path to Exile for a 10-card removal package against aggro). Sort of torn about Pithing Needles, but am tempted to put two in and adjust my sideboard to something closer to the primer, with +2 Path - 2 BEB, because we had two Zoo lists today and a Goblins player to boot running good builds out of a field of around 11 people (Summer is kind of slow around here).
    Last edited by routlaw; 07-19-2010 at 04:55 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    1. How did you side against pro bant.
    2. Ive also shared success in the merfolk matchup
    3. I agree with the siding incorrectly. in blind metas it happens alot. siding in krosan grip against us most of the time is a death sentence.

    Nice performance overall. too bad you cant make it to the gp. would love to meet and chat. Im writing a sideboard matchup analysis that we can work on if you'd like. Let me know if you have any interest.

    once again nice job!

    p.s. I got to do additional testing against landstill. The matchup is how i percieved. My opponent was missing several key cards and I think this makes the difference in our games if he sees them. I did rape him several times with good draws however, but its still not a good matchup at all.

  4. #84
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    also, any form of elves is much worse usually then merfolk for us.

  5. #85

    Re: UGw Tempo

    I was able to pin the Bant Counterbalance player as not being on Natural Order this week, thanks to finishing my rounds early and noting that he was playing Zoo and had a prolonged G1 (where as normally Zoo would either run him over or he'd win via Progenitus). So I boarded like this against him:

    +3 Path to Exile
    +2 Krosan Grip
    -4 Force of Will (w/ Pridemage I have six MD outs to a resolved Counterbalance, his scariest threat.)
    -1 Something else. Might have been a Daze since I was bringing in Path to Exile.

    I was basically hoping to do the following in games 2 and 3:

    a) Keep him off Counterbalance with Pridemages, Krosan Grip, and Spell Pierce.
    b) Have more removal in my deck than he had relevant creatures (Knight of the Reliquary. I can exalted beats past Goyf in a goyf stall)

    He drew three Knights fast despite not even having Top and I drew 1 Path to Exile. I just think it was bad beats and me not boarding in the Bojuka Bog, which I normally think of as grave hate and not Knight hate because I rarely play against Knights in my meta to the extent that I even thought that minor grave hate would be warranted.

    also, any form of elves is much worse usually then merfolk for us.
    Elves and Goblins both seem really scary, though I haven't played Goblins yet, intuitively it seems really bad.

    p.s. I got to do additional testing against landstill. The matchup is how i percieved. My opponent was missing several key cards and I think this makes the difference in our games if he sees them. I did rape him several times with good draws however, but its still not a good matchup at all.
    Having played quite a bit against the UBG "Deedstill" build, I'll definitely also admit that is not a good matchup. Generally I think the best bet is to try to get a fast hand and put the petal to the metal with creature drops, hoping they have a grip of permission-perferably Forces-and Jaces/Standstills-and not a bucketful of removal and Pernicious Deeds.

  6. #86

    Re: UGw Tempo

    You can also have Knight eat away your islands if you need an out to Lord of Atlantis, but it wasn't needed here.
    Unless you're talking about dual lands, you can't sac Islands to Knight.

    I got to do additional testing against landstill.
    Just play three Needle in the board. This is actually a matchup were you might want to Needle Flooded Strand. Every Landstill list should play four Flooded Strand. If you can cut them off basic lands with Needle and Wasteland their non-basics, it doesn't matter how many Swords they play in their deck. Swords is the card to worry about against them. Your mainboard is well-equipped to fight every other facet of Landstill.

    Im writing a sideboard matchup analysis that we can work on if you'd like.
    If I were going to the GP, I'd play this board:

    2 Hydroblast
    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Engineered Explosives
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Tormod's Crypt

    You don't need Krosan Grip or Ethersword Canonist so much now since Counterbalance and Storm isn't particularly good right now. However, aggro is strong so the board needs to address aggro-based strategies and decks that beat the snot out of aggro-based strategies, i.e. Zoo, Goblins and Landstill.

    -Against Zoo: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce
    +2 Path to Exile, +2 E.E., +1 Hydroblast
    Force of Will and Spell Pierce are not going to win you this match. Pitching a filterer like Brainstorm or Ponder to stop an early one-drop is lackluster when you could be using those cards to find removal and large creatures, which will win you this matchup.

    -Against Landstill: - 3 Swords
    +3 Pithing Needle
    You need to stop mana production and their deck implodes on itself. Spell Pierce Brainstorm and destroy every land that's reasonable to destroy. Needle E.E. and Flooded Strand and Decree. Don't let Humility or some other four-drop resolve. If they're playing janky 4-color, Needle Pernicious Deed and whatever other crap they're playing.

    -Against Goblins: -3 Spell Pierce, -3 Force of Will
    +2 Hydroblast, +2 B.E.B., +2 Path to Exile
    Watch out for Pyrokinesis. It's a blowout. Kill the creatures that matter. Do not counter Ringleader or Matron. Just counter/kill Piledriver, Warchief, Siege-Gang and the like (the creatures that kill you). Ringleader will just net them cards but with your ten "Swords" against them, just kill every creature you see that actually matters and not the 1/1s and 2/2s.

    If there are other matchups you want to talk about let me know.

  7. #87
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    Paul I sent you a pm.

  8. #88

    Re: UGw Tempo

    Tormod's against new horizons seems substantially worse. I think i'd board like this:

    +2 path,2 relic,2 ee
    -4 daze, -2 rhox?
    Don't cut Daze against New Horizons. More than half of their creatures cost three and they play Wasteland. Daze should be good against them all game in conjunction with your Wastelands and tempo plan. Wasteland will be their worst card against you because they're trying to do what you're doing just less efficiently. They can't afford to use Wasteland but since so many Legacy players are terrible, they'll use their Wastelands anyway and you'll blow them out with Daze and your Wastelands.
    Last edited by Hitman82; 07-20-2010 at 08:30 PM.

  9. #89
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    So whats your strat with 4 relic?

    +4 relic, +2 path, +2 ee,
    -3 pierce, -4 force?

  10. #90

    Re: UGw Tempo

    I think you sideboard too much. I don't think you need to bring in 8 cards against this deck, or probably any other deck. If you find yourself such a dog to enough decks in the field, play another deck. Against New Horizons, just board in 4 Relic and cut 3 Spell Pierce and a Ponder. I don't think you need Path to Exile or Explosives. When you have a Relic, use it well. Force them on the backfoot by attacking with all your exalted triggers on one creature. They won't want to be x-for-1ed so they'll either take the damage or chump block. With just a Qasali on your side or better, your Relic will keep them from attacking (at least for value) against you. Just like us, they have no long term card advantage so when you wear down their board in this fashion they can't do much but eventually lose.

    Remember, when deciding what to sideboard, just throw all your sideboard into the mainboard pile and take out cards that won't be effective in the matchup. You may be playing strange numbers of cards and/or you may be surprised at what you find yourself cutting but this is an effective way to both hide what you're boarding in but more importantly actively thinking about what you need in a matchup to win. You should always be thinking about this anyway. Daze shouldn't be cut against New Horizons because it's close to the nuts against them. "Well what do I side then? Well, I know I don't want to see a lot of Spell Pierces because all they have is Swords and Stifle, neither of which are too terribly good against me. Ponder filters into needed spells but so can a cantripping Relic so I'll cut the worst cantripper in the deck for a Relic." These are the kind of thought processes you should have when you're boarding and playing actually. The greatest skill in playing Magic is knowing what's important.

  11. #91
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    Paul is completely right on needle. Did testing against various landstill pilots and needle is quite strong with the strategy implemented on hozing them.

  12. #92

    Re: UGw Tempo

    So how does the deck compare to something like Bant Countertop and New Horizons in power level?

  13. #93

    Re: UGw Tempo

    I can't speak for Bant Countertop, but I feel this deck has a lot of advantages over New Horizons, which I have also played extensively in local tournaments. The most important of which (IMO) is that you're not a dog to Merfolk and run a better counter suite against combo (note that you are only slightly worse against Storm combo, and much better against non-storm combo). You have a strong maindeck answer to counterbalance as well.

    People play around Daze all day and walk right into Spell Pierce. It's such a good card.

    Qasali Pridemage gives a lot of decks in the format fits. It is a very disruptive card that is also a good early beater and helps go the distance late through exalted contribution while 100% retaining its disruptive properties. This deck trades off New Horizon's narrow focus on land disruption ( which is strong in a meta with land light combo decks like Reanimator and ANT) and instead has wider disruption that is IMO more useful against the overall current Legacy metagame.

    edit: Placed first in my local tournament today, turnout was light because it's summer and REALLY hot here. Went to time with Enchantress (I misplayed AND got unlucky game 1, G2 was a triple Pridemage blowout, and G3 he staved off lethal for turns w/ Solidary w/ no gas. Annoying!) , and stomped Painter/Grinstone combo and Aluren combo 2-0. I should have beaten Enchantress and you can throw that loss up to pilot error and me forgetting about "Replenish" in that deck (and him topdecking it w/ no other draw).

    So, I've played 7 sanctioned matches with the deck now, 5-1-1, with all five wins being 2-0, and both the draw and the loss being pilot error. I need more practice-the deck is not difficult to play IMO (a good thing) and is very strong.

  14. #94
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    I've tested somewhat of a white thresh list yesterday vs zoo to great success. I hope I get taken more seriously then over at the New Horizon's thread as I believe that NH has big issues with its mana curve. I've always liked tempo thresh's 1 mana always open strategy and its disruption package. I've recently made the switch due to nimble mongoose being terribly small nowadays and burn being unable to kill KOTRs and goyfs. Here's my list:

    4 Goyf
    3 Pridemage
    4 Knight of the Reliquary

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    4 Snare
    4 Swords

    4 Wasteland
    2 Horizon Canopy
    4 Misty
    4 Windswept heath
    3 Tundra
    4 Tropical

    I know I may be getting a bit greedy here with my manabase and being heirarch-less, however this list has performed well for me. I dislike having mana open for stifle (and therefore being unable to cast heirarach turn one) and having my opponent drop a non-fetchland. If I am on the draw, it is worse as he may drop a goyf/bob etc. The snare/stifle suit is very good in this situation (those who have played tempo thresh would know). The deck plays very similarly to tempo thresh, just with bigger dudes (Kotr) and better creatures (pridemage is great against many things, while being able to swing for 3 itself). Also, I find it as disruptive as Team America since KOTR keeps the wastelands coming. I think this is definitely more UGW tempo then New Horizons, so I decided to post it here. Let me know your thoughts.

  15. #95

    Re: UGw Tempo

    That doesn't even look a thing like a 'traditional' UGw tempo thresh list. Those typically play 2 RWM's, 4 QPM's, 4 hierarchs, vendilion clique as a 2 of...along with the lack of spell pierce maindeck. It looks like you are trying to shove canadian thresh from red into white for the third color and trust me, it will not work as it has been tried before and failed.

    The problem with NH is its curve along with its very awkward manabase IMO. You're trying to cast blue spells alongside spells that require 1GG, 1WG, among other things and it is, simply put, inconsistent at least in my testing of the deck. That's why I'm looking to build UGw tempo since the deck looks incredibly powerful and good against the field with the strong counter suite as well as exalted dudes like hierarch and QPM who are quite powerful. This deck is defined by the t1 hierarch turn 2 goyf play with a daze in the middle since the tempo swing is huge.
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  16. #96

    Re: UGw Tempo

    4 Goyf
    3 Pridemage
    4 Knight of the Reliquary

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    4 Snare
    4 Swords

    4 Wasteland
    2 Horizon Canopy
    4 Misty
    4 Windswept heath
    3 Tundra
    4 Tropical
    The problem with this list is it doesn't do anything. I don't say that to be mean or condescending. There are too many random control elements and no inherent synergy. A deck like this folds to Landstill because it doesn't apply an adequate amount of pressure in the face of Swords/Path. With eight exalted triggers in UGW, every creature is a threat, even potentially Noble Hierarch. This early pressure from nearly any creature you play in conjunction with the large tempo swings in your favor lead to a very favorable mid-game against several decks in the format. Without the inherent pressure and tempo synergies, you're vulnerable to more strategies. The control elements you play aren't universal, like Counterspell, but situational. Altogether, the lack of abusable early tempo, an aggressive early board presence and the situational nature of your disruption will be lackluster against a typical varied Legacy field. The disruption you run should be more universal since there's a great deal of variance in the kinds of decks you run into in Legacy. The more I play Magic, the more I'm convinced being the control deck for an extended length of time is the wrong way to go. You only want enough control elements to keep your opponent at bay long enough to kill him. I hope these comments helped.

  17. #97
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    Re: UGw Tempo

    I have no issues with your argument. I agree that disruption in this sort of tempo deck is geared towards keeping opponents offbalance until you can kill them. I have sacrificed my clock/accel (in the form of more dudes and heirarch) in favor of more disruption spells like stifle/snare. You would be surprised at how this deck performs against slower decks like landstill. Stifle/snares are important at countering early bombs such as deed, standstill, engineered explosives etc. In this matchup, I am not looking to race and kill him, I also have the option of permanently screwing over his manabase with KOTR fetching wastelands and growing bigger every turn. I have won almost half my matches in the above manner, against anything with a dependance on duals including quick decks like zoo.

    I put a large emphasis in this list on countering/answering early threats, stick a combination of stifle/waste/reliquary and ride a big dude to victory before the opponent can recover from the initial landscrew, similar to team america. This deck however, does not suffer from the narrowness of cards like sinkhole and thoughtseize late game, or the lifeloss of thoughtseize/snuffout. We may have different approaches to winning but I have found this combination of cheap fast disruption (though conditional) and consistently screwing opponents mana very successful. I cannot argue about this anymore but would encourage some testing before the idea is scrapped totally. Going the aggro way is also another option, I'm presenting an alternative view of how UGW tempo can be played. Cheers, Ivan.

  18. #98

    Re: UGw Tempo

    @Routlaw:

    Do you still play with the 2-2-2 RWM, KotR, Clique set-up or do you prefer the 3rd Knight? How is that been working for you?

    How about a singleton Savannah, for an extra green/white mana producer next to Tropical Island and Tundra? I think it could be really useful especially with Knights and RWM's, but I don't know if there's any room for it, -1 Wasteland/-1 Plains?

  19. #99

    Re: UGw Tempo

    I'm running 3 knight, 1 war monk, 2 clique. This is sort of a meta choice since Zoo isn't all that prevalent where I play. I would reconsider 2-2-2 in a larger tournament. I like the third Knight but if there was more burn/price of progress around it would be a 2nd Monk really quick.

  20. #100

    Re: UGw Tempo

    I just have to playtest it more as I just recently got all the cards to put the deck together, but so far it seems really powerful indeed. Do you guys think there's a place for Jace in UGW Tempo (-2 Ponder, +2 Jace) or would it be a bad move for a tempo deck like this? Also, why isn't this deck as popular as New Horizons or Countertop? Is the concept just too new or is the deck too expensive to put together for most people?

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