New cards from M11

[heroicraptor]

Chandra's Outrage is pretty cool. Creature removal and reach in one card is not bad. Definitely not legacy playabale though.

[Aggro_zombies]

I wasn't talking about non-Legacy formats. With regards to Legacy, very defensive creatures (besides a few exceptions which usually are capable of effectively switching from the control to beatdown role) have little impact. I think very defensive creatures can be developed in such a way that they would promote interactivity and depth of strategy in Legacy as well. Even a Bloodghast that could block would not be OP in Legacy (I'd gladly have accepted a warped/boring T2 for it, hehe); although, I'd probably be running Relic main more often in such a world.

Yeah, except then your opinion is totally irrelevant because Wizards developers work primarily with Standard and Limited in mind, and a wall that is literally impossible to get rid of is pretty obnoxious in those formats. The cards you want for Legacy would never be purposefully printed because they would make Standard and draft too annoying for most players, and the vast majority of players who play tournament formats fall into either Standard or draft.

The other issue is that the blocker you want basically already exists, and it's called Maze of Ith. I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of people out there that would argue that Maze promotes strategic depth in combat. Like, maybe for the defending player, but for the attacking player it's pretty clear that he'd better have a backup big guy or it's not worth it. A Maze of Ith that could attack wouldn't really add strategic choices in most cases, because a lot of players would keep it at home if the opponent had something scary and send it in if he didn't. That's just like a regular dork, except this one is super frustrating to play against.

EDIT: Although I guess it's just differently frustrating than what Legacy is currently trending towards, which is, "Let's see who can dump the biggest fatty into play the fastest."

[Pltnmngl]

Haha, Plummet might as well read "Destroy target Baneslayer Angel."

Fixed that for you. lol

Is is bad that Plummet is the only card that interested me?

[4eak]

@ Aggro Zombies

Yeah, except then your opinion is totally irrelevant because Wizards developers work primarily with Standard and Limited in mind...The cards you want for Legacy would never be purposefully printed because they would make Standard and draft too annoying for most players, and the vast majority of players who play tournament formats fall into either Standard or draft.

Be fair -- I did explicitly state in my opinion that Wizards would probably never develop such a thing (which is pretty much what you've stated). If my opinion is totally irrelevant, including the previous statement, then so is yours, right?

I'm fully aware of why Legacy doesn't see a ton of format defining defensive cards. My "hope for defensive Legacy" playable creatures, which I was clear to state was unlikely, should not require further justification. I don't think I'm hoping for the impossible either though (despite its unlikelihood). Plenty of unlikely and broken cards have been printed, despite developer intentions, and it isn't unreasonable to hope for "mistakes" which turn out to be strong defensive cards in Legacy.

a wall that is literally impossible to get rid of

This, of course, is not what I am seeking in Legacy either.

Strong defensive cards don't have to be impossible to answer. Either you've misunderstood my point or I wasn't clear enough in explaining it. I'll assume it was my fault.

Here is an example defensive card above the usual power curve that would see play in Legacy (and really isn't anything like Maze of Ith):

-- 3/3
Defender
Protection from Red
At the end of each of your opponents' turns, you my pay . If you do, Draw a card.

Far from broken in Legacy, but certainly a gamechanger. There is much more to the possible defensive spectrum than raw P/T and Shroud or Recursion.

As I said before, the barrier to good defensive creatures in Legacy isn't just the power curve, but also that game developers trend away from equal implementation of control features in a game (as compared to the offensive spectrum) because it frustrates impatient players.



peace,
4eak

[bowvamp]

Ok, sorry that this is kinda a tangent, but I've thought long and hard about walls. Yeah, it might clog up block, but we really need a couple things that aren't seen very often:
a) 1cc creatures with powerful effects (two that I know of are Lavamancer and Mother of Runes)
b) Good walls
c) Better ways to deal with artifacts & enchantments in black (ok, yeah it's focused, but I really think it's an issue)
Introducing:

Ungodly Phalanx
B
Creature - Soldier
Defender
Tap: Target artifact or enchantment phases out, you lose two life, play this ability any time you could play a sorcery.
1/2

But aside from fantasy cards, this new set looks very... casual. Seriously, black already has much better creature recurrence. Red already has better burn spells. Better draw already exists in the form of: Etched Oracle, Jayemade Tome (yeah, I said it). Seriously nothing to get excited about here.

[anonymos]

I would like to point out that M11 is Tournament Legal as of it's release event on July 16-18, 2010.

That makes M11 legal for GP Columbus if I am understanding this correctly.

[Vacrix]

I would like to point out that M11 is Tournament Legal as of it's release event on July 16-18, 2010.

That makes M11 legal for GP Columbus if I am understanding this correctly.

Sure it will be legal but we don't really have enough info on the set either way to decide if anything in it will be played. So far I'm very pessimistic about it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sure it will be legal but we don't really have enough info on the set either way to decide if anything in it will be played. So far I'm very pessimistic about it.

Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona, but it probably fucks up your mana less than trying to run Karakas. I don't think it's good enough, especially if you're in Bant (Echoing Truth much?), but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Reanimator player from just getting Inkwell instead, but you can't win them all.

I guess it's not completely narrow since it also answers Clique, Tombstalker, Trygon Predator, Coralhelm Commander, and...um...Mystic Enforcer?

[Vacrix]

Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona, but it probably fucks up your mana less than trying to run Karakas. I don't think it's good enough, especially if you're in Bant (Echoing Truth much?), but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Reanimator player from just getting Inkwell instead, but you can't win them all.

I guess it's not completely narrow since it also answers Clique, Tombstalker, Trygon Predator, Coralhelm Commander, and...um...Mystic Enforcer?

But would we expect to see this as something in the board? Surely its not good enough to be found in any MD, considering how dead it is against so many decks.
In that case, if its boarded in against reanimator for Iona, I'd expect to see preventative measures taken to avoid that situation entirely, ie. gravehate. Gravehate is a much stronger choice than this and I don't think that its application to matchups with the other fliers you mentioned justifies its position in a board. Might Zoo play it? Eh I don't know. I think that its too narrow and the opportunity cost of playing it is giving up space in your board against other matchups. Even against Zoo, your opponent can find Sphinx, which has pro-green so Plummet is purely an answer to Iona.

My guess is that Plummet will receive more attention in standard.

EDIT:
Solidarity has issues against Iona. Maybe we will see a singleton played in a Cunning Wish toolbox, "Iona, respond--> Cunning Wish, it resolves --> Plummet" I'm playing a green splash now, so if anything I could surprise the fuck out of someone. :D

[Wyrath the Great]

Plummet has the potential to be a (very narrow) answer to Iona,(...) but it's an option for janky decks that only have reasonable removal in one color.

I wouldn't call Eva Green a janky deck, but sure, it's a narrow answer to most decks.

EDIT:

It does get better from the fact that it can smoke your own Abyssal Persecutor, though. Or not.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, at least Plummet also hits Tombstalker, I guess.

[Aleksandr]

As I said before, the barrier to good defensive creatures in Legacy isn't just the power curve, but also that game developers trend away from equal implementation of control features in a game (as compared to the offensive spectrum) because it frustrates impatient players.



peace,
4eak

This. Thousand times.

I won a few games I had not to win, just because my opponents were impatient and they lost to their own nervosity. And as long as most of the WOTC's audience are litle kiddies, kitchen-table players and teenagers, they won't print too many defensive/control cards anymore...

[Vacrix]

This. Thousand times.

I won a few games I had not to win, just because my opponents were impatient and they lost to their own nervosity. And as long as most of the WOTC's audience are litle kiddies, kitchen-table players and teenagers, they won't print too many defensive/control cards anymore...

Not necessarily. I think that WoTC is smarter than we give them credit. They know that veterans still play Legacy. They might take that into account. Certainly they've been thinking about Legacy a little more than usual.

[Wyrath the Great]

I think that WoTC is smarter than we give them credit.

I certainly hope so.

Still, using the word "smart" in the same sentence as names such as Mark Rosewater, Doug Beyer or Ken Nagle seems a bit absurd.

[Skeggi]

Hey guys, I came up with the following idea for



Next to the fact that you can obviously recur it multiple times at high mana cost, it seems to combo with Ashnod's Altar (recur via Dread Return => Sharuum the Hegemon?) and you also need Initiates of the Ebon Hand to get endless Bridge from Below tokens.

Would it be any good? Or is it too elaborate? Is there an easier way to abuse the Reassembling Skeleton?

[Vacrix]

Hey guys, I came up with the following idea for



Next to the fact that you can obviously recur it multiple times at high mana cost, it seems to combo with Ashnod's Altar (recur via Dread Return => Sharuum the Hegemon?) and you also need Initiates of the Ebon Hand to get endless Bridge from Below tokens.

Would it be any good? Or is it too elaborate? Is there an easier way to abuse the Reassembling Skeleton?

Sounds janky to me. All those cards are really bad if they aren't working together; however, it would be a hilarious casual black deck worth less than 50 cents.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Is it just me, or is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret more exciting than any of this crap, since it will automatically drive the price on Elspeth back down to a reasonable level? (Or am I just bitter because I don't own any at the moment?)

[denial]

Is it just me, or is Elspeth vs. Tezzeret more exciting than any of this crap, since it will automatically drive the price on Elspeth back down to a reasonable level? (Or am I just bitter because I don't own any at the moment?)

Dunno. Wizards is so cheap sometimes, I could totally see them printing this and it not containing either. For $19.99 msrp, I could see it coming with an elspeth and tezzeret token or something.

[dahcmai]

Eh, they bothered to make new art for them so they are probably in there. Now we just need to have a video game promo and some other promo to lower the value to the point where no one cares.

[(nameless one)]

As the official budget mascot, I approve the Elspeth vs Tezzeret duel decks.