Here's the scenario:
Round 1 of the tournament; you're playing CT Bant (let's say this list) and draw this hand:
Divining Top
Vendilion Clique
Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Flooded Strand
Knight of Reliquary
Tropical Island
You lose the roll and your opponent leads with Misty Rainforest -> Tropical Island -> Noble Hierarch. (You have a lot of information here, but don't know whether they're some kind of Bant Tempo or Aggro, Survival, CT/NO, CT/no-NO, weird-ass Bant Zoo, etc.)
A. Do you Force the Hierarch, pitching Clique? [Yes / No]
B. Assuming you didn't Force Hierarch, you take your turn and draw a Wasteland.
Do you:
1. Fetch a Tundra, StP the Hierarch?
2. Play the Trop then Top?
3. Play the Strand, fetch Island, play Top
4. Play the Strand and pass
5. Waste their Trop?
6. Do something else?
[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6]
C. Let's say you drew a Goyf instead of Wasteland, would that change your play?
[Yes / No; if yes, the what?]
Do nothing.
Tropical Island, Top.
You're now in a position to do a few things if you need to:
1) Fetch away garbage on Top.
2) Force their play.
3) StP their guy if they play one.
4) Have the mana to play Knight. If it was Goyf, you have the mana to play that.
You're already behind by the merit of them playing first and leading with Hierarch. You aren't gaining anything by playing the StP here. Actually, it would be great for you if they Daze your Top, since it puts you on equal footing mana-wise.
Betting on opponent manascrew isn't worth it in this scenario. You have 2 of the best creatures in bant in your hand, and in any mirror match you want to protect your biggest threats. Clique you can run out on turn 3 to bait counterspells or check their hand for removal, which leaves you a great opening for an undazeable KotR, which should be much bigger than every other creature in a normal bant deck, plus you saved FoW backup.
If you had used your spells and land destruction to try for the early manascrew you could easily have wasted cards. If the opponent has another land in hand (likely because you didn't say anything about him thinking for a while about keeping the hand, and 1 landers aren't often kept in stride) then he could easily ponder, brainstorm, or just top deck another land and be just fine. You only have 1 removal in hand and no guarantee to hit another soon, so I would hold onto it.
If you are playing against a Survival deck you definitely want to save your FoW. Same goes for whatever random deck this might be (Alluren, Food Chain, Planeswalker.deck).
If you really want to go for manascrew then first turn plowing the hierarch is the lesser of the evils. I've done it before, especially if they mulliganed, but I wouldn't on a full 7 vs 7 card match.
You don't Force, this would obviously be a waste.
If you do draw the Wasteland I would go Tundra -> Swords. Not using Swords weakens your Wasteland.
If you draw Goyf the correct play is imo: Fetchland -> pass. Given that you have Top and Knight (both cards win the lategame) as well as Goyf and Swords for "stalling" you should focus on developing your board as good as possible. Hence it is not advisable to trade Top for a Daze (it rarely is).
Two different lines of play for nearly identical hands, but I would play like this since each line of play keeps all your cards active.
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
I'd rather draw out their daze with top then them saving it for something else (protecting their NO/Pro combo) or using it on my Gofy/Knight.
A resolved Top will not only give you a surperior lategame but also find you the lands to play around Daze, so the protection it gives them is a rather shaky one.
If the Sowrds would be Bolt lots of people would bolt Hierarch without thinking, slowing them down will give you the time to play your gamewinners.
This is one of the most interesting things about the question. I think you're right -- if it was Bolt, Hierarch would many times be toast, many times over by many players. When the removal is StP, people are more inclined to spare the druid a life of farming.
Not sure I agree. Top seems to be one of the defining cards in this match-up (based on the information we know).
This is because red decks are nearly always more agressive. Bolting the hierarch is good here because you can't kill of your opponent's relevant threads (Goyf, RWM, KOTR) with the bolt. You delay their development and you get the chance to slow them down a lot.
In general red decks would bolt the hierarch simply because they are better geared to play the aggressive part in this matchup and thus will take this route because their solutions for Bant's threads are weaker in exchange.
Even with Bolt, I would bolt the Hierarch running Canadian Threshold but I wouldn't bolt it running, ugh, something like this because this deck doesn't have wastelands to support the screw plan and is not as well suited to be the agressor.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=3760
Can someone tell me how to quote only parts of other people's posts?)
Last edited by Bardo; 06-09-2010 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Fixed your tag
Is there something wrong with paying 1 to get your opponent to return a land and use a card? Recoil costs 3, and it'd definitely be aggressively costed at 2.
I would pretty much always pay 1 to have my opponent daze. Especially if it's a shitty card like top.
Except Top is not a shitty card, and gives you a huge edge in this match.
I did not read anyone elses response yet.
A) [No]
I would not do this for several reasons:
1 - There is a high likely hood of them dropping a Counterbalance the next turn. Since we lack Daze, we can't stop it without FoW. We could FoW the Noble, but if they then drop a Counterbalance, we are extremely screwed. Another issue we could, based on the fact that they dropped Noble, is that they are trying to accelerate into a NO/Pro. If we Force the Noble now, we are lacking a counter for the NO. Since they are also playing Blue, there is a chance they will have counter-backup to protect the NO.
B) [2]
For a few reasons:
First, their first turn with Noble, while accelerating them into other plays, is not inherently threatening at the time. We are also somewhat light on land in our drawing ignoring the wasteland. By dropping the Top first, we will be able to manipulate our next few draws to ensure we are not color screwed and also give us superior card draw quality. Furthermore, we can bluff to the opponent that we may be preparing to drop a Counterbalance soon as we already have half of our combo. Once I dropped the top, I would next turn see what sort of creature they would drop.
If a Gofy or RWM or some other large creature, I would swords it and prompt counter magaic from the other player in an attempt to thin their hand and allow us to drop our much larger Knight with counter protection.
If is a Pridemage, I would ignore it for the time being. When and if I got CB, I would try and get rid of it.
If they drop a counterbalance, I would counter it without a second thought.
The wasteland is actually somewhat of a dead card with the opponent leading with Noble. Had they not had the noble I may consider using wasteland as we have a Top to find us more land.
C) [No]
I would still want to drop the top as soon as possible to ensure we can fight our opponent with superior card quality draws. Wasteland is a bad play overall as they are already ahead in mana production and color creation: using a Swords on the Noble is bad as that is one less swords to use on a Gofy or a exalted RWM. We also don't know if we are going to find anymore land soon: dropping the top ensures we won't have that issue and also sets us up for our Counter-Top lock.
Q1- Do not force the Hierarch. There are probably much greater threats. If you had a hand that was very reliant on Daze, then I would consider forcing the heirarch.
As stated by Phoenix, most of the possible threats ,two thirds perhaps, are answerable by StP. The other options ( Natural Order / Survival / counterbalance) are better targets of FoW than the Hierarch.
Q2 - If you draw a wasteland: No you do not waste. The Noble Hierarch provides their single color needs. A small fraction of cards in the bant decks require double color - let me guess one fourth. If the opponent has some of those cards and they don't have a second source of color and they don't draw or search it - then it pays off. Far too many contingencies, though.
There is a slim possibility that you really hurt your position [edit: by using wasteland]if you don't see another land in the next 2-3 turns. Then you can't play your knight or clique. I'd play the Tropical Island > Sensei's top. I think it positions you to react most appropriately to whatever direction the opponent turns. Your hand requires double blue for clique and white for 2 spells, and a 3 total mana for knight and clique - so the only time Tropical > Top is really bad is if they have waste / stifle. Bant decks that are playing both stifle & wasteland make up less than half of bant decks played at the moment. If they have a wasteland, you are out either white or green, so Flooded Strand > Island won't help much. If they have a stifle, then it is a deck probably without CB, NO, or Survival, so you are safe to Force the stifle.
Q3 If you draw Tarmogoyf. There is no guaranteed 3rd land drop on turn 3, thus making both the knight and clique weaker in hand. I become more likely to FoW-away the clique. But does that chance the Turn 1 sequence? No, I'd still do Tropical > Sensei. Your turn 2 plays of Tarmogoyf or un-dazable StP on their beater, will allow you to get to the mid-game in fair shape and minimize the tempo advantage of the Hierarch.
Don't Force it. The only cards I want to Force in blue mirrors are Counterbalance in game one, Natural Order, and sometimes Jitte.
Tropical Island, Top. Bolt goes after Hierarch because most decks that play Hierarch have relatively few profitable targets for Bolt beyond perhaps Qasali Pridemage (Tarmogoyf and War Monk being more or less invincible as far as Bolt is concerned, although setting up a Tarmogoyf-on-Tarmogoyf combat step and finishing with Bolt is pretty sweet) and you'll be in bad shape if your opponent plays almost any three drop or any two drop plus Ponder or Brainstorm. Using Plow to make sure that you have the best creatures in play is more important than temporarily stunting his mana development.
I usually hate getting my Tops Dazed because Top is super good in the midgame, but given that he's opened on Hierarch he's in a good shape to be aggressive on turns three through five and you can't play around Daze with all of your three drops you're going to have to trade something for Daze eventually, and you won't have free mana to Top with for a while anyway.
If I drew a Tarmogoyf I really want him to Daze my Top so that the Tarmogoyf is larger and his mana advantage is neutralized.
In general, Wasteland is only good if you're ahead on the board, cutting off a color, or cutting them off some critical amount of mana. It's pretty rare that I just Waste people on turn one unless I have some sort of read.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
A. No
B. 2
C. Yes
Allow Noble, play Tropical--->Top allow Daze if they would. I assume Wasteland is less played than the opponent's non Waste Bant/SotF list, putting out the Tropical would allow me to shuffle away unwanted cards with Top and 2 Fetchs. If they were to Daze Top then they go to 5 cards and stay at 5 after replaying land drop. Leaving them at 2 mana and down a Daze for our t2 play or FoW. If they were to play any 2cc Cbalance,Survival,Tarmo,Pride( I would only force Cbalance,Survival and StP Goyf). I can set up my Goyf followed by KotR. Hate seeing Waste here.
A) No, same reasons as Frogboy.
B) I play Top. I don't Swords since I can't effectively play a tempo game short of some very lucky draws, and I don't Wasteland for the same reason (only even more so). As important as Top is in this match, I have plenty of action in my hand and I'm way behind in mana so it isn't really worth it to play around Daze.
However, if on the next turn they don't play a second land, I'll happily Plow the Hierarch and Waste the Island, even Forcing if necessary to do so.
Also, if they play a land and pass the turn with no play, I would seriously consider the possibility of Swording the Hierarch on my turn as a precaution against Natural Order with FoW backup, which would be one great reason for them to keep such a hand, as well as my major fear at this point. The Vendilion Clique in my hand also means I wouldn't have to worry about them drawing another sacrificial creature on the next turn.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
A. Do you Force the Hierarch, pitching Clique? [Yes / No]
No, even if my opponent mulled to 5 cards I wouldn't Force it. Unless you know whether you have to fight against Manadenial, Counterbalance or Natural Order or several of these things Forcing Hierarch is a pretty loose play netting you card disadvantage from the beginning. The problem here is not only loosing FOW but Clique which is extremely good in mirror matches. You loose two great cards for one that almost never can decide the game on its own.
Even with Waste in hand I would rather Sowrds the Hierarch and waste the turn after (because I still have FOW for his play) then Force his Hierarch.
B. Assuming you didn't Force Hierarch, you take your turn and draw a Wasteland.
Fetchland > go. You need to develop your manabase. Top is too risky to run into Daze as CounterTop can realistically win the game. Wasteland actually takes you back to the beginning while he still has 2-3 Mana turn 2. You can still play it later to prevent him from expensive threats.
Swords is too important to play. Not only because of Goyf but also Pridemage. Its very possible that you have to Stop a Pmage to be able to play a Balance you found with Top. Balance and Planeswalkers are much more impoertant in the mirror than your manadisruption which is already only a 3/3.
C. Let's say you drew a Goyf instead of Wasteland, would that change your play?
No.
I expect that my opponent will play nothing or that I can Force a Balance and I will then to proceed to play Trop > Top, then next upkeep Top and possibly fetch.
TS Crew
This list also plays more lands than most Bant lists at 22, not in any rush to develop mana base holding 2 fetches against a deck that won't attack mana. Pridemage is a concern to our balance lock, but we get to use Stifle and a singelton EE and Shackles to Bait Pride(3-4 QPM and 1 maybe 2 T. Predators are usual Bant fare). Turn 2 could also be Sylvan,Jitte, and if they have Stoneforge package are also things to look out for seeing this list has 2 answers main(one must survive+connect) for Art/Encht. Also their creatures will be bigger due to exalted triggers and adding in that we have 10 creatures to their 18, any piece of equipment will just compound the situation.
First of all the list plays 18 lands +4 Wasteland which is a difference. But whether you play 18 or 22 Lands is not important. You have CounterTop/Walkers and therefore your plan is to control the board. Landdrops are crucial for a control deck. FOW hardcast is important during lategame for example when resources are low.
You are also just assuming that the opponent is not attacking your manabase. At this point the opponent could be anything: Bant Aggro, CounterTop, Bant Survival, W_Tempo, New Horizons with Hierarch and all of it could run Natural Order on top of it. Regardless what he plays here we still have FOW.
Stifle for Pmage is possible but you need not only Balance but Stifle and an extra mana (aside from Daze mana) for it. So landdrops are not important?
Creatures will be bigger with Noble? So why Swords Noble then and not the first big creature while smashing face with our own? Noble can be handled by almost every creature in the deck while others can't.
TS Crew
I never said land drops are not important, what i said was we have 3 lands maybe 4 if Waste scenario is used. What are we casting turns 1-4 that need lands #5+? We can already play Cbalance with Stifle mana or Daze mana and in Waste scenario we can get to our Walker mana as well. I never said i would StP Noble, don't know why you asked me why?
No NH lists run Noble and only 1 person as of yet would be plaing W_Tempo(Moss).
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