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Thread: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

  1. #21
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muradin View Post
    Can someone tell me how to quote only parts of other people's posts?)
    Simply press on the Reply with Quote button and erase all the text between the quote tags you don't want to quote. Also remember to keep both the [ and ] in place, else the software won't recognize the text as a quote (as happened to your last post).
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  2. #22
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    A. Do you Force the Hierarch, pitching Clique? [Yes / No]

    No, even if my opponent mulled to 5 cards I wouldn't Force it. Unless you know whether you have to fight against Manadenial, Counterbalance or Natural Order or several of these things Forcing Hierarch is a pretty loose play netting you card disadvantage from the beginning. The problem here is not only loosing FOW but Clique which is extremely good in mirror matches. You loose two great cards for one that almost never can decide the game on its own.
    Even with Waste in hand I would rather Sowrds the Hierarch and waste the turn after (because I still have FOW for his play) then Force his Hierarch.

    B. Assuming you didn't Force Hierarch, you take your turn and draw a Wasteland.

    Fetchland > go. You need to develop your manabase. Top is too risky to run into Daze as CounterTop can realistically win the game. Wasteland actually takes you back to the beginning while he still has 2-3 Mana turn 2. You can still play it later to prevent him from expensive threats.
    Swords is too important to play. Not only because of Goyf but also Pridemage. Its very possible that you have to Stop a Pmage to be able to play a Balance you found with Top. Balance and Planeswalkers are much more impoertant in the mirror than your manadisruption which is already only a 3/3.

    C. Let's say you drew a Goyf instead of Wasteland, would that change your play?

    No.

    I expect that my opponent will play nothing or that I can Force a Balance and I will then to proceed to play Trop > Top, then next upkeep Top and possibly fetch.
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  3. #23
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shugyosha View Post
    Fetchland > go. You need to develop your manabase. Top is too risky to run into Daze as CounterTop can realistically win the game. Wasteland actually takes you back to the beginning while he still has 2-3 Mana turn 2. You can still play it later to prevent him from expensive threats.
    Swords is too important to play. Not only because of Goyf but also Pridemage. Its very possible that you have to Stop a Pmage to be able to play a Balance you found with Top. Balance and Planeswalkers are much more impoertant in the mirror than your manadisruption which is already only a 3/3.

    C. Let's say you drew a Goyf instead of Wasteland, would that change your play?

    No.

    I expect that my opponent will play nothing or that I can Force a Balance and I will then to proceed to play Trop > Top, then next upkeep Top and possibly fetch.
    This list also plays more lands than most Bant lists at 22, not in any rush to develop mana base holding 2 fetches against a deck that won't attack mana. Pridemage is a concern to our balance lock, but we get to use Stifle and a singelton EE and Shackles to Bait Pride(3-4 QPM and 1 maybe 2 T. Predators are usual Bant fare). Turn 2 could also be Sylvan,Jitte, and if they have Stoneforge package are also things to look out for seeing this list has 2 answers main(one must survive+connect) for Art/Encht. Also their creatures will be bigger due to exalted triggers and adding in that we have 10 creatures to their 18, any piece of equipment will just compound the situation.
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  4. #24
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    This list also plays more lands than most Bant lists at 22, not in any rush to develop mana base holding 2 fetches against a deck that won't attack mana. Pridemage is a concern to our balance lock, but we get to use Stifle and a singelton EE and Shackles to Bait Pride(3-4 QPM and 1 maybe 2 T. Predators are usual Bant fare). Turn 2 could also be Sylvan,Jitte, and if they have Stoneforge package are also things to look out for seeing this list has 2 answers main(one must survive+connect) for Art/Encht. Also their creatures will be bigger due to exalted triggers and adding in that we have 10 creatures to their 18, any piece of equipment will just compound the situation.
    First of all the list plays 18 lands +4 Wasteland which is a difference. But whether you play 18 or 22 Lands is not important. You have CounterTop/Walkers and therefore your plan is to control the board. Landdrops are crucial for a control deck. FOW hardcast is important during lategame for example when resources are low.
    You are also just assuming that the opponent is not attacking your manabase. At this point the opponent could be anything: Bant Aggro, CounterTop, Bant Survival, W_Tempo, New Horizons with Hierarch and all of it could run Natural Order on top of it. Regardless what he plays here we still have FOW.

    Stifle for Pmage is possible but you need not only Balance but Stifle and an extra mana (aside from Daze mana) for it. So landdrops are not important?

    Creatures will be bigger with Noble? So why Swords Noble then and not the first big creature while smashing face with our own? Noble can be handled by almost every creature in the deck while others can't.
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shugyosha View Post
    First of all the list plays 18 lands +4 Wasteland which is a difference. But whether you play 18 or 22 Lands is not important. You have CounterTop/Walkers and therefore your plan is to control the board. Landdrops are crucial for a control deck. FOW hardcast is important during lategame for example when resources are low.
    You are also just assuming that the opponent is not attacking your manabase. At this point the opponent could be anything: Bant Aggro, CounterTop, Bant Survival, W_Tempo, New Horizons with Hierarch and all of it could run Natural Order on top of it. Regardless what he plays here we still have FOW.

    Stifle for Pmage is possible but you need not only Balance but Stifle and an extra mana (aside from Daze mana) for it. So landdrops are not important?

    Creatures will be bigger with Noble? So why Swords Noble then and not the first big creature while smashing face with our own? Noble can be handled by almost every creature in the deck while others can't.
    I never said land drops are not important, what i said was we have 3 lands maybe 4 if Waste scenario is used. What are we casting turns 1-4 that need lands #5+? We can already play Cbalance with Stifle mana or Daze mana and in Waste scenario we can get to our Walker mana as well. I never said i would StP Noble, don't know why you asked me why?
    No NH lists run Noble and only 1 person as of yet would be plaing W_Tempo(Moss).
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
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    Re: [You make the play] Kill the Hierarch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    A) No, same reasons as Frogboy.

    B) I play Top. I don't Swords since I can't effectively play a tempo game short of some very lucky draws, and I don't Wasteland for the same reason (only even more so). As important as Top is in this match, I have plenty of action in my hand and I'm way behind in mana so it isn't really worth it to play around Daze.

    However, if on the next turn they don't play a second land, I'll happily Plow the Hierarch and Waste the Island, even Forcing if necessary to do so.

    Also, if they play a land and pass the turn with no play, I would seriously consider the possibility of Swording the Hierarch on my turn as a precaution against Natural Order with FoW backup, which would be one great reason for them to keep such a hand, as well as my major fear at this point. The Vendilion Clique in my hand also means I wouldn't have to worry about them drawing another sacrificial creature on the next turn.
    I think Nihil is spot on in every aspect here. NO is my biggest concern as I have no answer to it outside of Force and if they have FoW of their own... But you don't play the what if game unless you have nothing better to do. So you drop the top, if they counter it, good, you're back to mana parity. If not, then you have great card quality and still have StP and FoW to deal with any serious threats. But if you don't drop top, you're down tempo and you lose the draw quality.
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