CAB - JaceTM

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Sorry to hear the Volc is that late... if you want to play the deck before it finally arrives, it should do fine with a Fetch or Island instead even though you lose a little bit of Fire-power (excuse the pun) in the lategame.

[The Treefolk Master]

So, the Volcanic Island never arrived, and likely never will, so I got sick of waiting and decided to take the deck to a local, 16 man, legacy tournament, replacing the missing dual with a lousy Island.

My maindeck was exactly the same as that posted in Mon's last article, although my sideboard was radically different, due to card availability and expected metamage (tons of aggro and affintiy).

SB:

2 Energy Flux
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Punishing Fire
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip (should have been Dismantling Blow)
1 Diabolic Edict (should have been Wing Shards)
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Tsabo's Decree
2 Negate
1 Ravenous Trap

Now, on to the rounds:

Round 1 vs. Affinity

G1: He has a slow start, presenting no Enforcers, and his only significant creatures, a pair of ravagers are contained by mazes, while the rest are fired away. He gets ravager ravager plating down, I EE for 2. He eventually concedes to Jace with no board position and no hand.

Boarded the tutor + the fluxes in.

G2: I keep 4 Mazes, Wasteland, E. Tutor, Swords, as I figure out I can generate time with mazes until a draw a white source, in which case I should win. I rip a tundra off the top and let the fun begin, drawing another land the next turn. He concedes with 1 Ravager on board vs. 3 Mazes and Jace.

2-0
1-0

Round 2 vs. Burn

Wasn't even close, not worth spending any words, so I'll use a quote: "Yes, I think ‘toast' is an appropriate description.—Jaya Ballard, task mage"

0-2
1-1

Round 3 vs. Junk (forgot his wastelands at home)

G1: I swords/fire/EE all his guys, and wasteland his Stirring Wildwood, so the game stalls as we are both in topdeck mode. However, he gets stuck on 2 lands, so I extirpate his fetchlands, rip jace, fateseal, fateseal, fateseal, fateseal, fateseal, counter, he dies.

G2: I go to 6 and keep a risky hand of grove wasteland top + removal, as I can't risk going to 5. He of course leads with duress (and takes top after a thinking for like 2 minutes...) but I draw into more fetches and duals. I kill all his guys and drop all 4 mazes into the table. Eventually, were both in topdeck move, both of us drawing dead, BUT I'mdoing 1 damage per turn, puting him in a 27 turn clock (yeah baby!). He concedes on the precarious life total of 19.

2-0
2-1

Round 4 vs. Jund Rock

G1: Play lands, Fire away bloodbraid elf, fow blightning, swords S. Thrinax (WTF) EE various cards of all shapes and sizes, drop jace, ramp it, win.

G2: Identical to game 2, although I have to EE a freaking Glissa (WTF number 2) 3 times due to he ripping Unearths from the top like his life depended on it.

2-0
3-1

I ended up getting 2nd.

Thoughts:

-The burn MU sucks, this, added to the fact that the combo matchup isn't very positive either, encourage me to try out leylines of sancity in the SB, ideas?
-P. FIRE > Firespout any day of the week.
Mazes rock!

Comments?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Man, bad luck for the Volc :( Thanks for the report, though!

Some comments:
Round 1: I think you don't need EFlux to beat Affinity *G*

Round 2: Ouch. Maybe Leyline would really be a good idea, you're not the only one who seems to be having trouble vs burn.

Round 3: I don't think you should ever Extirpate opposing lands, you're wasting a card for no effect on the board. WSZenith maybe?

Round 4: WTF extended?

If your meta doesn't have any combo, you could also simply try boarding a few Samite Ministrations vs burn instead of Leylines. To make room in your SB I don't think you really need Tsabo's Decree or Energy Flux - Affinity/Tribal feels utterly beatable without them.

[The Treefolk Master]

1. Probably not, but I expected a crapload of affinity, so I decided to put them in the board just because I couldn't think of anything else.

2. Point taken.

3. He duressed me when I only had a wish in hand, with 4 mana open, I had top, and it was the best thing I could think of. It was probably a missplay though, thanks.

4. Agreed

I'll try the manistrations, although I prefer the leylines on paper.

[The Treefolk Master]

So, I'm probably taking CAB Jace to a big tournament 2 weeks from now, and I need help with my SB. I was thinking of something like this:

1 Dismantling Blow
1 Extirpate
1 Wing Shards
1 Punishing Fire
2 Negate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Ravenous Trap
1 White Sun's Zenith
4 Free Slots

For the empty spaces I´m thinking about:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Pithing Needle 1 Something
2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Pithing Needles
4 Something else you folks can come up with :P

I'm also not sold on the Ravenous Trap, it seems a bit clunky. Of course the rest of the sideboard is not 100% fixed and can vary before the tournament.

Ideas?

Suggestions?


EDIT: Oh, I forgot to post what the last metagame looked like:


Zoo: 5
Goblins: 5
Merfolks: 4
Eva Green: 4
Dredge: 3
WW: 3
Mono Red Burn: 3
Landstill: 2
Pro Bant: 2
UW Control: 2
Mono Black Aggro: 2
Sneak Attack: 2
UW Fish: 2
Mono Green Destroyland: 1
Solidarity: 1
Infect: 1
Chaimera: 1
Painter: 1
Survival WG: 1
Aggro Loam: 1
Canadian ********: 1
TPS: 1
Belcher: 1
Dark Depths: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Dark Horizons: 1
BG Control: 1
Pox: 1
Mono Green Aggro: 1
Enchantress: 1
Survival UGw: 2
Survival GB: 1
Survival UG: 1


As you can see, there are lots of aggro (Zoo, Tribal, others) decks, along with 1 of pretty much every semi competitive deck in the format. There's also quite a lot of burn (sad face), but not A LOT of combo (happy face). There are also a few discard heavy decks, making the Leylines look better and better.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

How confident are you the meta next time will at least be close to what you posted? As in, how many of the players are likely to be picking up some form of combo influenced by the latest SCG-results?
Because with what's happening lately (more and more S&T, ANT, High Tide etc) I'd be tempted to fill those last four slots with Spell Pierces and call it a day. Boarding an additional six cheap counters has worked fine for me against Burn before and makes all the Progenitus and spell-based combo-decks far more beatable than they otherwise are while also helping against Team America and similar tempo-decks post SB.

Additional dredge-hate might also make sense considering there were three already last time. The R. Trap could also be another Extirpate even with only a single Sea, seeing as there is practically no Loam in that metagame and Extirpate is totally fine to make Dredge beatable (as soon as they don't have Bridges any more, the removal-engine actually works quite well to keep them under control).

/edit: Extirpate has the additional advantage of being relevant against combo and burn, which is why I might run another instead of the RTrap. If you really want to beat Dredge consistently, you'll probably need the full set though - which is why I originally decided to largely ignore dredge when building the deck. Takes up so much space for cards you don't need elsewhere.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm 99% sure to see a similar metagame repeat itself, because every time a tournament of these caracteristics is held, there is always a HUGE amount of Zoo and Tribal. People don't seem to care, for some reason, about SCG results... As Legacy isn't that big in my country, people try to build cheap/semi cheap decks=> goblins/Merfolk=>many have the whole zoo decks from old extended and just need the necessary duals and fringe cards.

I'll try 4 Pierces and Extirpate number 2.

Thanks!

[Catitas]

Carsten, what about removing both wastelands for a dust bowl and keep 60 card build?

[The Treefolk Master]

Time for another report, small tournament, 14 people.

Same mainboard as before, though the SB was:


2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Punishing Fire
2 Extirpate
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Wing Shards
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Negate
2 Warmth (couldn't find leylines in time)
2 Red Elemental Blast

R1 vs. Burn (facepalm)

Again, wasn't even close, he set me on fire both games, although he was really lucky with his draws while I wasn't.

0-2
0-1

R2 vs Infectstompy

G1: He gets 2 dudes down, I P. Fire, drop Maze, drop Grove, ramp jace, Win.

G2: The same thing, although he got me to 6 poison counters.

2-0
1-1

R3 vs. NO Bant

G1: He mana screw, I waste a key land, drop Maze to hold down a Tarmo, drop jace, ramp, win again.

G2: He drops an early NO and pushes it through my FOW, not much to say here.

G3: His few threats are dismantled with EE and Maze, when he goes for the NO I have the Negate, he passes, EOT Wish por Extirpate, bye bye NO. I see his hand is dead, with Plow-Fow-Land-Noble. Without NO, he can't beat me, but doesn't concede until I begin to fateseal with THE MAN.

2-1
2-1

R4 vs. Dark Horizons

G1: He plays land go for like 8 turns, which gives me TONS of time to build my defenses. He begins to drop dudes, they begin to die horribly. He draws 3 Vindicates for Jaces and Groves, and drops a few dudes, so it looks like he might manage to pull out a win. However, I Plow and drop & blow EE. Both libraries are really small right now, and I'm drawing dead until I find a Top to match his freshly drawn Top. I finally find my 4th jace, begin to fateseal my self, sending crap to the bottom while floating a counterspell on top. He finally he concedes to Jace on 13 counters.

Note: G1 took a whole lot of time, so there are only 7 minutes left in the clock.

G2: I use my removals and Fows aggresively, trying not to loose intead of winning. We go to turns and I win.

1-0
3-1

I ended up in 3rd place.

Notes:
Unless I can find a good solution for the Burn matchup, I may not be rocking this in the next big tournamet, as that plus the chances of facing combo are greatly discouraging. Leylines haven't been all that great during testing.

Comments?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Thanks for the report, seems like the deck performed pretty well over all (aside from burn again). Have you tried the mass-counters from the SB setup? I've beaten burn both times I had to play it in tournaments with that setup. Other than that, I'm pretty sure you can make burn a really good matchup simply by playing 4 Samite Ministrations in the board (slow-roll them until he goes for PoP if you can), though that's a lot of space for a single deck.

@Catitas: Dust Bowl was tested but the acivation-cost made it clunkier than was worth the repeatability. I'd rather just run a single Waste in that case.

[The Treefolk Master]

I didn't have time to test the mass-counters version before the tournament, I'll try to find some time to test online before this saturday (vs. know opponents, not some idiot who tries to stifle the additional cost on Silvergiill Adept...).

4 Samit Ministratioms seems to much, as you said.

Have you tried the Intuition Loam version with the Punishing Grove combo in it? It seems really powerful, although a bit slow...

dEDIT: The one bad thing I see in the 4 Spell Pierce SB is the lack of Pithing Needles, which are probably the best sideboard card in like, ever. They offer protection from wasteland and 9495747954 other cards.Mon, Do you run Needles? Comments on them?

[Nizmox]

Lands: 24
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Factory
4 Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Lonely Sandbar
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Aggro-hate: 10
4 Maze of Ith
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Shriekmaw

Card filtering/draw: 17
3 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Hunt
1 Life from the Loam
2 Cunning Wish
3 Jace

Counters: 10
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Intuition
1 Forbid
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
4 Counterbalance
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineerined Plague/Innocent Blood/Shriekmaw

I really like this suggestion and am going to try it out for myself (with a few changes). I enjoy playing my UBG landstill but have contemplated putting Maze of Ith in the deck for quite some time. It forces your opponent to over extend and with Deed you punish them for it. Deed is such a beating in Landstill and I love that it is also great against non creature based decks which is why I feel it's better than firespout or punishing fires. By adding Maze of Ith you're likely going up to 28 lands and then Treasure hunt becomes viable instead of standstill.

I definitely won't be running shriekmaw, i would advocate running Explosives with Ruins (instead of Stronghold) over that any day. And Explosives is awesome because again it isn't limited to affecting creature based decks.

Other ideas would be to increase the number of cycling lands to ~3, drop loam to 1 and include intuition.
Cycling lands + Loam + Ruins + Explosives all fit nicely into an intuition package.

I'm not sure if cunning wish is required in this build either. Black has awesome sideboard options though, extirpate in particular answers many problems.

Has anyone properly tested a UBG version of this deck using Treasure Hunt?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@Treefolk Master: Yep, I do run Needles. There simply isn't enough combo or burn in my meta to justify spending slots on the Pierces yet (not to mention I've been playing NBS aka Spiral Tide lately - still, I have Jace built simply so that I can chose to play whatever I feel like). My current SB looks like this:

1 Wing Shards
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Extirpate
2 Negate
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Punishing Fire
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle

Probably won't beat Burn with it outside of a lucky draw (though adding some ETutor-target like CoP: Red to the board would probably help) and Dredge/Combo still sucks but as those decks are rare where I play, I don't need pierces. The Tutor makes setting up something they can't beat easier, though - Canonist + Forbid is GG against Combo and I'd probably try to set up the same against burn - if you Forbid every spell he aims at Canonist, he can't win either. Ruins + Spellbomb beats Dredge and you buy a lot of time with the removal to set that up). Needles are insane against all decks with Wastelands but not really necessary to be favored against them (outside of Loam) so those are the first things I'd cut in a meta with more Combo/Dredge/Burn and the E-Tutor package can become whatever you feel comfortable with/need for your meta. I just like flexible answers.
Maxim has come up with the interesting idea of running a Top and 3 CBs in the SB if you expect a lot of combo and burn. While usually your curve doesn't support CB all that well, it does if most things you want to hit cost 0 or 1 - something to think about.

@Nizmox: I don't have any testing with it, but that list has two problems, imo: First you don't have any cheap removal once you cut the Shriekmaws (and those are only 2 for 2 mana), meaning any Aggro-draw that includes a Wasteland probably just kills you. This is compounded by the fact that you run Deed over EE, which in my experience is just to slow to be worth it in Legacy - and which therefore makes it even more likely to get overrun*. EE is also better against CB because they can't just keep a 3 on top and cold you (the reason this deck is so good against CB is that they usually can't kill you through your Mazes, which means you get to EE their board at some point). Also three Jace is definitely wrong.

*I know others have enjoyed success with the card, for me Deed has been a tempo-black hole too often that made me take far too much damage before my removal came online. It also doesn't kill Planeswalkers.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If Burn has been giving people so much trouble, why not try Aegis of Honor? As a bonus, it's Enlightened Tutor-able, so you don't have to waste too many sideboard slots on it.

Seems way better than Samite Ministration to me. You're welcome ;)

[Hedgy22]

I've been following this forum for awhile ever since the introduction of the deck on SCG (atleast the introduction for me, as this was when I first became aware of the archetype), and after some testing at local legacy tournaments I wanted to contribute my 2 cents in this discussion.

Has anyone tried removing the cunning wish package and replacing an enlightened tutor package? It seems like most the cunning wish targets aren't super powerful in most matchups. They help when you are already winning, but not powerful enough to turn a game around. An enlightened tutor package would also allow leyline of sanctity to be run in the sideboard, which would greatly improve both this deck's poor matchups (burn and combo). Ensnaring bridge and/or moat help with NO and show and tell decks. Enlightened tutor also helps with the problem that lead to the inclusion of cunning wish (dead draws late game). I think it should definitely be considered, as it seems to fit perfectly in this deck.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but maybe I'm on to something. Let me know what you all think!

[Jiaozy]

Warning, possible TL; DR post ahead!

I've been playing around with a similar idea (ETutor package) for a while and he're where I'm at, as of now:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Treasure Hunt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enginereed Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds


Sidebord
4 Counterbalance
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Humility
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warmth

I had to up the number of Tops to better support the CB plan in the SB, that solves horrible MUs like Burn and ANT with the ETutors to find the pieces of the "lock".

Crucible is just a blowout against decks packing Wasteland.

Seat of the Synod is there as a "just-in-case" card to fetch via Tutor for a mana-light hand or to fight a Choke, a card that I found very hard to beat and the reason for the Glacial Fortress in the MD as the 5th Tundra.

The full set of Needles between MD and SB is there beacause against Gobbos you have very little that you want to Force so I usually take them out in favour of something better: Needles for Vial and a second Humility.
It can also come in against a number of other decks, even naming Wasteland against tempo isn't a bad option.

Humility wins alone in a ridiculous number of MUs, be it Goblins, NO Show, GW, Zoo and the like, while Moat just sucks in those MUs since it allows them a comeback via Zenith for Qasali, Qasali, Siege-Gang Commander to shoot your face, Elspeth to give a Reliquary flying till EoT and such.
With Humility you solve ALL of these problems and more.
For the same mana you get a free win (Humility + PFire is some good, I hear), whereas with Moat you just time-walk you opponent, if that.

Warmth is awesome against Burn,because it lets you take just 1 damage for each of their burn spells if it resolves, but you gain 2 even if it gets countered!
You just have to try your best not to get Sulfuric Vortex'd! ;)
In this MU I usually take out Needle, Bridge, Humility, a Maze and Crucible for 4 CB and the Warmth.
Other options could be Dragon's Claw (you gain life from your own PFires too), Zuran Orb (+Crucible), Trigon of Mending (a bit slow, tho, but has a HUGE potential) or Sun Droplet.

VS ANT and Spiral Tide I usually side out STP, Humility, Bridge, Explosives and Crucible/Needle so I have room for 8 side in: CB and REB. I leave in the Needle only against Spiral Tide for their Candelabra.

VS Emrakul/Progeniti decks there are 2 Humility between MD and SB and a Bridge in the MD.
They can't basically beat a resolved/put into play via S&T Humility and post SB you have a LOT of counters.
VS Sneak Attack I usually do: -4 STP, -4 Maze for +3 Needle, +1 Humility, +4 REB. REB for Show and Tell, Needles for Sneak Attack. The STP and Mazes tend to go due to their critters being immune to them (Progenitus and Emrakul).
VS NO Show I do: -4 Maze, -1 Needle, +1 Humility, +4 REB. Here the STP stay in since they have lots of targets for them and along with PFire you can try to keep their board clean from green creatures to make it harder for them to Natural Order a Progenitus in play. REBs are for the usual suspects (Force, S&T).

VS Zoo/GW Order I do: -1 Forbid +1 Humility. Siding in CB against them is usually worthless since they can easily play around it with Zenith and/or Planeswalkers.

Dredge is an horrible MU as usual and you have to get REALLY lucky to win anyway, so 2 Tormod's are all that I feel like devoting to them. As always you should mulligan any hand not containing ETutor or Crypt and possibly the Ruins. The perfect hand consists of 2 lands, Ruins, ETutor/Crypt, don't be afraid to mulligan because keeping a mediocre 7 cards hand will make you lose anyway if you have no hate. The Crypts could easily go if you suspect/know there are no Dredges in the room to make room for something else.

My 2 cents :P

[The Treefolk Master]

Some insight on your list:

Post your Counterbalance curve is:

1 drops: 21
2 drops: 9
3 drops: 4

You're a bit low on the 2 drops, and obviously very high on the 1 drops. You could consider adding some counterspells to ease this.

Your blue count for Force of Will is also a little low, at only 16 cards maindeck, counting the FOWs themselves. I think the bare minimum is 18, but you would be more confortable with 19/20.

2 Jace. NO. Run 4. For budget reasons, 3 may be acceptable, but the optimum number is 4. It's your main win condition, it bounces single threats, it turns into a better Phyrexian Arena, it pitches to FOW.

There is no sinergy between Humility and Engsnaring Bridge main deck. You could look towards cutting one of them.

You're also a bit wrong on moat. Moat is a complete blowout against Goblins; you WILL win 99.9% of the time, they should never be able to kill you with SGC, and if they do, Humility probably wasn´t going to save you anyway. Humility is superios vs. Bant, GW, Zoo and Progenitus decks (all of which, if you remove Pridemage from the equation, Moat is a blowout against). I think I prefer Moat, but I could be wrong, it deserves more testing. MAYBE you could go -1 Bridge +1 Moat, but it could be pushing the curve a little.

I do like the Crucible MD, kudos on that.

With E. Tutor, Aegis of Honor > Warmth in the sideboard.

3 Tops looks like a bit too much. Maybe moving on to the sideboard woud be a good move.

2 Treasure Hunts seems a bit ramdom, maybe add another counterspell or something (also, Treasure Hunt and Bridge is a no go).

Forbid seems a bit clunky (it was always the worst card when playing CAB Jace), maybe Counterspell would help.

Huge fan of Spell Snares.

I'm not entirely convinced by your manabase, you could try going:

-1 Tundra
-1 V. Island
-1 Glacial Fortress/Seat of the Synod

+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Island/Wasteland

You're running Crucible, so a single Wasteland/Dust Bowl looks good.

Comments?

[Jiaozy]

The list is wrong, I just copy/pasted it from MWS, I actually dropped Forbid in favour of Counterspell!

I noticed the problems with Treasure Hunt and Bridge and was thinking of taking them out and play 3 Counterspell and 3 Snare.

Humility + Bridge isn't that big of a problem because you rarely have both out or if you do you can easily play the top card of your deck without problems and recur Fires in EoT leaving them in the yard during your turn.

The count for CB is right, mainly because the spells you fear the most in the burn and ANT MU cost 1 (Ritual, Chant, Silence, High Tide, Lightning X) and by the time a spell that costs 2 becomes problematic (Price of Progress, Infernal, Merchant Scroll) you should've found one.

As for the mana base I'm having good results with this one, more fetched aren't needed with Crucible. The Dust Bowl/Wasteland idea is good, tho, I'll try that!

[The Treefolk Master]

You could also try 2/3 Ethersworn Canonists instead of Counterbalances, because a good ANT player will just sculp the perfect hand, bounce the CB and then kill you, canonist at least presents a clock, albeit not a very fast one. However, Canonist + Fire can put pressure on the opp.

I think removing the Bridge and leaving in Humility is probably the way to do. Having Humility + Fire online is probably on the same level as Humility + Engineered Plage (although the best feeling EVAH is Humility + Moat).

[The Treefolk Master]

Sorry for double post, but I just realized your list is 62 cards, which is 1/2 too much. What's up with that?