When's the last time you saw someone who didn't bathe, talk to people, or shit before or at a tournament?Originally Posted by Forbiddian
I'm still unsure why people are so convinced this speculated format is coming. It doesn't make sense.
When you look at the extended changes, and the justification behind them, it boils down to something quite simple - No one played Extended. That's it. The format existed solely as a Pro Tour and PTQ event and was never played outside of those. It was a format that failed to connect with the playerbase, and such needed to be modified in order to try and connect.
So if they are shrinking that format becuase they felt its size contributed in making it a failure to catch on with the playerbase, why would they create a new and larger format to fill the supposed void it creates? Are all the players who weren't playing extended before going to flock to this new thing? No. And as for all the players who are supposedly priced out of legacy and would benefit from this new format, why weren't they playing extended before?
Legacy has appeal, as a format (not just becuase it currently has a great environment/meta). There is certainly a large playerbase who likes the nonrotating eternal format that goes back to the dawn of the game.
Standard has appeal, as a format. A current and ever changing format is clearly quite popular for Wizards.
Extended, as a 7 year rotating format, did not have appeal and was a failure. Why would attempts to shrink it make people think we need something like overextended?
They better not reprint staples for Over'E because my, you know, collection and shiz values would totally tank.
/sarcasm
I tend to agree with Sharpened. I don't see how they will be able to get people interested in two different extended formats when 1 didn't even work. The pros are excited because they get to build new decks, and the few people who wanted to play extended and didn't have the money and didn't know anyone who had cards are on board as well. Everyone else really doesn't care.
Will they make the new format? Probable. Will anyone play it? Probable not...
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1. Another eternal format that could be less expensive for new players to get into when compared to Legacy or Vintage.
2. A eternal format in which all of the cards in it are NOT restricted by the reserve list. Since none of the card are on the reserved list, Wizards can continue to reprint staples, which will help new players get the cards they need to get into over-extended while also getting the price of the cards down.
3. Due to reasons 1 and 2, an eternal format that Wotc can more widely support with official tournaments.
Collectors win since their high-value cards continue to be valuable, players win since they will get a eternal format where any card can be reprinted in a new set (making the format more widely available to players that lack $400 for a playset of a dual land) and Wotc wins since they have a eternal format in which they can fully support without having to worry about the. reserved list.
The truth of the matter is that Legacy, not the reserved list, was a mistake. WotC should have made Legacy after the fact when the reserved list was made. Our current Legacy should have been what the rumored over-extended is, but it's obviously too late for that.
Sure, it could be less expensive, but that's probably becuase no one is playing it. When has wizards taken actions regarding about the expense of barriers to entry to format? Especially now, when we are in the age of standard decks that are over the $1000 barrier. While I'm not arguing that you have to spend that much for standard, no constructed format is a cheap solution.
If wizards was interested in keeping the price of cards down, we would have seen a Tarmogoyf reprint by now, either as some promo or in a duel/archenemy/promo deck or something. Even if wizards could reprint dual lands, what evidence do we have that they would?
The last Wizards official legacy tournament was the biggest magic tournament ever held, right? I'd be willing to bet that the next one (Columbus) is well over 1600 participants. The starcity legacy tournaments aren't exactly small.
Look. The supply of cards isn't what's determining card prices. In print cards have ridiculous prices. Jace is approx the cost of an Underground Sea. Vengevines will run you something similar to LED or Mox Diamond. Demand drives price, and if a new format exists and is adopted by the playerbase, then the staples in that format will be expensive. The idea that wizards will reprint things to keep card values low is nothing but wishful thinking. And frankly, wizards can support the hell out of any format they create, but if no one cares about it, it will just fall into the category of old extended, which is only played for the requisite PTQs.
People have to have a reason to care about the format. Tournaments for the format aren't enough of a reason. The current environment of cards (Standard) is a valid reason. An eternal format going back to the beginning of magic (Legacy) is a reason. Since the last 7 years of cards (extended) failed as a reason, why the hell would "everything since we stopped promising we wouldn't reprint some stuff" work as a reason for the existance of a format?
I think it would be a bad idea if Wizards tried to marginalize Legacy for an Overextended type format. Legacy appeals to a much wider audience simply because people want to play with a broader card pool, and there's a special feeling when you know you have access to every card that has ever been printed. People would still continue to play Legacy because there is already enough of an existing player base and enough recent growth to provide "momentum" for the format to sustain itself. Of course, such an announcement would definitely diminish the player base somewhat, so I hope it doesn't happen, but the format is robust enough as is that I know I can always join a tournament when I want to.
If Wizards tried to completely replace Legacy with Overextended by banning all the cards before Masques, I think it would be a disaster, and we would be able to find out exactly how much the community can sustain itself. I think everyone loses in this type of scenario. Wizards loses because most players would rather quit or play strictly casual than play Overextended, and they lose out on whatever money they could generate from the current Legacy players, which is not an insignificant amount. It's certainly less than a competitive Standard player would spend directly on new sets, but Legacy players do buy products as well, and they also show up at tournaments, play casual, bring new players into the game, and uphold the secondary market for cards that would otherwise plummet when they rotate out of newer formats. Legacy players lose because there would be diminished availability of tournaments, although it could easily survive in a reduced capacity, much like Vintage and EDH, which receive no support, but obviously as a much larger community than either because the format is currently so popular. Collectors lose because the values of their Legacy staples plummets. Local stores lose out for the same reason because players would no longer frequent their shops as often. The only ones that would benefit is are those players that loved the old Extended but did not want to play Legacy at all, which needless to say, is a very miniscule if not nonexistant part of the community.
Perhaps this IS that attempt. The price of Legacy is slowly going the route that Vintage went. Wizards may be wanting an eternal format that gets around their reserved list.
WoTC, IIRC, stated that Tarmogoyf was a mistake and his relative power level is the reason he costs so much (along with being popular in a extremely popular eternal format). You stated the very reason Wotc might reprint duals: Legacy is popular and continues to grow: the price of staples and duals shows that.If wizards was interested in keeping the price of cards down, we would have seen a Tarmogoyf reprint by now, either as some promo or in a duel/archenemy/promo deck or something. Even if wizards could reprint dual lands, what evidence do we have that they would?
[quote]
The last Wizards official legacy tournament was the biggest magic tournament ever held, right? I'd be willing to bet that the next one (Columbus) is well over 1600 participants. The starcity legacy tournaments aren't exactly small.[/quote}
Not if duals start to be $100 a pop.
Look. The supply of cards isn't what's determining card prices. In print cards have ridiculous prices. Jace is approx the cost of an Underground Sea. Vengevines will run you something similar to LED or Mox Diamond. Demand drives price, and if a new format exists and is adopted by the playerbase, then the staples in that format will be expensive. The idea that wizards will reprint things to keep card values low is nothing but wishful thinking.
False: reprints increase the supply, which will eventually cause a decrease in demand, which reduces the price of the cards. Economics 101.
How much do you want to bet that Baneslayer will maintain it's $40 price tag once M11 comes out? I guarantee you it will drop at least $10, if not more.
Old extended slowly rotated out cards. This rumored overextended won't be rotating anything out.And frankly, wizards can support the hell out of any format they create, but if no one cares about it, it will just fall into the category of old extended, which is only played for the requisite PTQs.
People have to have a reason to care about the format. Tournaments for the format aren't enough of a reason. The current environment of cards (Standard) is a valid reason. An eternal format going back to the beginning of magic (Legacy) is a reason. Since the last 7 years of cards (extended) failed as a reason, why the hell would "everything since we stopped promising we wouldn't reprint some stuff" work as a reason for the existance of a format?
So there isn't a potential environment for people who want a eternal format but don't want to dump $400 for duals?
None of your counter-arguments provided anything to suggest that overextended is a bad idea. If anything, some of your points actually show why such a format is viable.
Your best argument that wizards is willing to do something about the barriers to entry to a format, is that they completely revamped a format that no one was playing? Your seriously suggesting that the extended changes are an attempt to reduce the financial barriers to entry to a format? Please. Stop trying to "win" an argument on the internet and look at it rationally.Perhaps this IS that attempt. The price of Legacy is slowly going the route that Vintage went. Wizards may be wanting an eternal format that gets around their reserved list.
Reasons wizards might reprint duals are not the same thing as evidence that they would reprint to lower secondary market price. Tarmogoyf's powerlevel is a reason to keep him out of standard legal sets, but it probably doesn't matter for promo sets. Do we have an evidence, examples, where wizards took any action with the goal of affecting the secondary market on specific cards by increasing circulation?WoTC, IIRC, stated that Tarmogoyf was a mistake and his relative power level is the reason he costs so much (along with being popular in a extremely popular eternal format). You stated the very reason Wotc might reprint duals: Legacy is popular and continues to grow: the price of staples and duals shows that.
Yes, supply and demand both affect price. They don't both effect price equally. Are you interested in looking at this rationally, becuase I'm not eager to break out some higher level economic theory on a messageboard. The basic premise is that if in print cards have ridiculously high prices (and they do), having the ridiculously expensive cards back in print will only marginally effect the price, as it is the demand that is far more important a determinant to their price.False: reprints increase the supply, which will eventually cause a decrease in demand, which reduces the price of the cards. Economics 101.
I honestly don't think either of those things matter. A set starting point for the format thats arbitrary is about as relevant as a moving starting point. It's either the whole history of magic (legacy/vintage) or its not (anything else). As for the price, again, thats just wishful thinking on your part. If the format takes off, the most sought after cards in it are going to see their prices rise and rise significantly. Just becuase wizards will be able to reprint any card that they want to reduce the price, doesn't mean that they will and we have little to no evidence that they would be inclined to do so.Old extended slowly rotated out cards. This rumored overextended won't be rotating anything out. So there isn't a potetntial environment for people who want a eternal format but don't want to dump $400 for duals?
More importantly, and this is the important part, we have every reason to beleive that the format won't take off. It won't be popular. It will fail for the reasons that Extended failed. As much as people whine about price, it's currently not a problem. For every person that has quit becuase they have been priced out of the game, two more have taken their place. The price of both standard and legacy have not been deterrents as evidenced by attendence at major events (Aside: No one cares if you know people who have quit or the anecdote of a playgroup that has died out, you are the playgroup you speak of has been replaced twice over). Creating a budget environment to be a pale alternative to legacy doesn't seem like wizards style. Assuming they would do it is a little ridiculous.
The current Extended format only caters to those most recent players who have enjoyed one, maybe two, standard seasons. Yes, it also appeals to veterans who enjoy Standard as a format, but the main target demographic are people that want to hold on to their Standard cards, decks, and strategies before either rebuying for the new Standard, or investing in an Eternal format.
As to the objection about the format's failure to connect with players, this was less a fault of the format itself and more a fault of Wizards. Yes, Extended was not a very thriving format, but Wizards' failure to endorse it at FNM and in wider tournaments definitely caused problems. Starcitygame Opens have hugely contributed to Legacy's popularity, and there was no analog event for Extended players. Now, none of this is to diminish the glaring problems of that format and its metagame. But it does complicate the picture.
The idea is not to make a new rotating format. It would be to make a new Eternal format that is more limited in scope than Legacy. Would it replace Vintage? Maybe, and I actually hope that this happens; Vintage is certainly the least healthy format in modern Magic, especially after its closest competitor, Extended, just got a facelift.Legacy has appeal, as a format (not just becuase it currently has a great environment/meta). There is certainly a large playerbase who likes the nonrotating eternal format that goes back to the dawn of the game.
Standard has appeal, as a format. A current and ever changing format is clearly quite popular for Wizards.
Extended, as a 7 year rotating format, did not have appeal and was a failure. Why would attempts to shrink it make people think we need something like overextended?
So why is this appealing? Why do we need another Eternal format that exists somewhere between Legacy and Extended? There are many reasons for this, but the biggest two for Wizards concerns metagame diversity and Reserve List issues.
1. Diversity
Legacy is a healthy and diverse format. I acknowledge that, understand that, and do not seek in any way to undermine it. But there are a lot of decks that are powerful, consistent, good, and worthwhile that simply don't make the cut in Legacy. Why not? There are a bunch of prevailing cards and strategies in Legacy that prevent other strategies from flourishing. Can you deal with Force of Will? Is your manabase too vulnerable to Wasteland? Is your combo deck abusing LED? While these are not problems for Legacy, many players might feel that the format lacks diversity. While it does not suffer from the Vintage problem, where two dozen cards are the same in each deck, it still has a problem with some strategies getting edged out just because of the format, not because they are bad.
2. Reserve List
In years to come, the cards that are Reserved are going to be in increasingly high demand. Yet, they remain at a constant level. While players rotate out of Legacy and thus sell their cards on eBay (presumably), this might not be enough to sustain demand. With prices of non-reprintable staples on the rise, a trend that sees no sign of stopping, Wizards might worry that their Eternal format is in a bad situation. A new format would offer players an alternative, and might stave off some of the supply/demand pressures.
Back when the Legacy format split from the Vintage format, people said the same thing. But if the format were actually released, provided it had adequate TO and Wizards support, it would definitely be as attractive as the fledgling Legacy was.
Standard deck prices are high, but the only card that is on the up and up is Jace the Mind Sculptor. All other cards in that format are pretty stable (Gideon and Vengevine excepted, and even the latter is only in a handful of decks). Sure, stuff like Hierarch and Knight are fetching Moreover, once Standard rotates in another year, the prices will restabilize back in the mid hundresd, $500 or so for a good deck. But Legacy has a future to look to. In this future, many cards will have price tags that are higher than Jace, which makes an already expensive format even harder to enter. Standard is definitely putting serious pressure on players' wallets (Jace the Money Scalper and Walletslayer Angel anyone?), but Legacy looks to do it even more later.
The purpose is not just to keep prices down. That would serious piss off investors and collectors of the game across the world. The purpose of reprinting would be to keep prices down so as to encourage a format. Even the stingiest of collectors and investors can get behind that, at least so long as the supposedly sacred Reserve List isn't violated; Hasbro legal is all over that apparently. If a new format comes into existence, then Wizards will certainly print cards to get newer players more interested, and to bring older ones back to the formats that they grew up with.
One tournament for Legacy had a lot of participation because it was such a rare and awesome event. But could Wizards really replicate that on a weekly, or even monthly, basis? My guess is no, or they would have done so already. The number of Standard players is, without any question, far higher than the number of Legacy players. It is an easily supported format that anyone can enter into. Because of this, Wizards supports it. Legacy faces a far different reality.
No draw to the new Eternal format? Are you kidding me? The advertising campaign could be targeted at both new and old players alike. A format that has no Reserve List? Check. A format that has lower card prices? Check. A new format with tons of possible innovation and invention? Check. A format where old players can relive their favorite decks between 2000 and 2010, the years where most people probably started playing? Check. A format where new players can jump into an Eternal Format without spending hundreds on some lands? Check.
While writing this post, Sharpened added some more points that I want to address:
Mercadian Masques is the end of the Reserve List. That's not arbitrary at all. That's a monumental moment in Magic history, when Wizards abandoned an obnoxious policy. MM is basically the beginning of modern Magic, with the 6th Edition rules changes in effect, the Reserve List gone, and players helping to test R&D designs.
Wizards wants to encourage a new format to thrive. If they don't want to look like fools with their new format, that means reprinting some old staples in shiny and awesome Premium products to draw in new players and lure back old ones. That is extremely strong incentive to reprint cards that will have the effect of driving down prices.
I have seen some reasons why it will fail, and some reasons why it will succeed. Just stating "we have every reason to believe that the format won't take off" means nothing when you can't back it up with evidence. Both sides have evidence in their favor, and it's just a matter of weighing them.
As to Extended's failure, it was a rotating format with a bad set of decks and no support. Of course it failed. Wizards would not repeat their mistake with a new format. It would be an eternal format and it would be well supported and backed up.
-ktkenshinx-
i don't really see where is the problem with overextended . . .
I mean let's face it, extended never was a real format it was only a born-dead hybrid format, i tend to see the overextended thing as a way, for hasbro, to really create a new interesting format (which is not anyway) in order give a new life to the old extended, and of course get some now profits from that.
Vintage wont suffer from this such as legacy, i mean when overextended will come out do your seriously think that shockcrap i mean shockland will remain that low ? No they ll jump such as any new cards that will become a staple in this format, just like we see now in legacy/type2. So It WON'T solve the recent rise of prices, even "worse" it ll only lead new cards to a price jump. So anyhow that format is to me pointless, as i don't see it to be more interesting than legacy, and it won't be an more affordable, - money wise -, format.
legacy is[n't] dead, long live to legacy.
oh and lastly do you seriously want to spend more than 10$ on a ravinca dual ? SERIOUSLY ? I wouldn't even spend 1$ on it. Not to mention that after the new format they d get even more expensive. Duals are legendary, legacy is too as that was the point of the format. period.
and no kind of neo legacy is needed, as it s fine.
Last edited by ryO!; 06-22-2010 at 05:15 PM.
It's a good idea to broaden the existence of more deck types that have fallen out of flavor due to rotations, but are too weak to exist in this format because of the Dual Lands. Frankly, I own most of the staples to play in Legacy or Vintage, but there's also cards that I have that do not see the light of day that would see the light of day with a new format. The creation of EDH and even Legacy itself was so that certain cards would be able to be played in a new format. Being able to play in more legal tournaments and using staples between Legacy and "Overextended" is a win, as well as brings new players to the mix. The gap between Extended and Legacy is a huge rift, where mostly only the most powerful cards are played.
You have nothing to show that would be the case. Stop asserting your opinion as fact and act rational.
Creating a budget environment to be a pale alternative to legacy doesn't seem like wizards style. Assuming they would do it is a little ridiculous.
For someone that continue to mock me by stating I am not being rational, you continue to ignore my points and act irrational yourself. WoTC wouldn't be doing this solely to reduce entry price: they would be doing it so that they have a eternal format in which they can avoid any and all issues with the reserved list.
That would be their primary reason. There might be other subtle reasons, but that one reason alone is what would be the main motivator for wizards.
Let's take a look at NO/Pro Bant list and see what it would look like in overextended:
creature [17]
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [6]
3 Natural Order
3 Ponder
land [18]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
First gone are the dual lands, but these can be replaced with shocklands. The deck will deal more damage to itself, but that alone won't make it nonviable. Wizards can also make new dual lands that could be better than the shocklands.
Next gone is Force of Will since it's in alliances. Curious thing is that FoW is NOT on the reserved list, so if Wizards wanted FoW in overextended it could reprint it in a new set.
Swords to Plowshares will also go away, but this card can also be reprinted and/or replaced with Path to Exile.
And that's about it. A tier 1 deck in Legacy is relativity untouched: arguments about the new format being stifled in creativity are hallow, baseless arguments. I have, on the other hand, demonstrated how a current legacy deck, while being somewhat weaker due to the mana base, is almost exactly the same as before.
You can play Dredge...
That deck will be virtually legal under the hypotetical Overextended pool.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
it could be reprinted however.
Hey Drago, you claimed earlier that "Lets face it: Overextended is going to happen." I'm not saying that is incorrect, and in fact, I believe that is a reasonable assumption, but that is in fact the most conspicuous case of passing off opinion as fact; it certainly is the most assertive.
yes, it could be reprinted. However just because something MAY be reprinted does not mean it WILL be reprinted. Natural Order will certainly not be reprinted in a standard legal set at any time that both cheap and inexpensive (or possibly even FREE) green creatures are in standard, while along side of any significantly large beatstick green creatures that are difficult to deal with (such as is the case in the confined super block of Zendikar alone).
Take for example the Lands that create Plant Tokens from Zendikar Block along side of Terastadon. Cheating Terastadon into play for only 4 mana in Standard would be a little O.P. in my opinion.
And you won't see Force of Will reprinted until Jace the Mindsculptor rotates OUT of standard, and possibly out of the new extended as well.
Karakas on the other hand has a slight chance of getting reprinted due to the fact that it bounces things like the Eldrazi Titans, but even that is sketchy.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...daily/deck/441
4th turn Terastadon more overpowered than 4th turn Emrakul? Hmm....
that depends, does polymorph grant you the extra turn when it gives you a fourth turn emrakul. Or does it just give you the beafiest single creature card in the game?
Terastadon on the other hand when cast of a 4th turn natural order would come along with three 3/3 elephant tokens granting you an immediate board presence that you may not have had prior to casting natural order, and an undeniably huge fatty.
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