In a Legacy that isn't bound by the reserve list there'd still be expensive cards. Extended wasn't popular because it was expensive... now, why would overextended be less expensive than the current extended? A lot of the costs is with cards like Tarmogoyf and fetches, cards that aren't on the reserve list. In Legacy there are competitive decks you can play without cards that are on the reserve list that cost more than 30 bucks. It's not as if the format is inaccessable. It's expensive, but current Extended is expensive as well. Is there a difference between expensive and expensive?Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The problem is with cards that everybody wants (but not everybody plays...) like Underground Sea, and cards that had a limited print run (Legends, Portal sets). Wizards has had the time to reprint cards like Goyf and FoW, but they didn't. Hypothetically they could, but I doubt they'd want another Standard with these cards. Even Counterspell is deemed overpowered, why would they reprint FoW? That's not going to happen. It makes sense for Wizards to make a new eternal format, since it would help cards that rotate from Extended retain some value. It doesn't make sense to warp Standard with reprints to make the new Overextended as appealing as the current Legacy. The whole reserve list argument doesn't make sense.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Then explain why the changes were made to extended. Explain why the rumors about overextended have cropped up. Do you think it's a coincidence that with the surge in popularity in Legacy that such rumors have popped up when you also consider that many want WoTC to support eternal formats?
If you want to believe that what I am saying is nothing more than an opinion, then you must accept that Legacy will die off. That is a fact as we watch duals slowly creep up to the $100 ($150+ on SCG) mark and watch it go the route of Vintage and EDH: casual games with little tournament support. If that is what you want then fine, but if not then you better hope overextended happens because once the first of the duals hits $100, you can start to kiss legacy goodbye.
The price of Legacy WILL be a determent to the format: the creation of overextended may help alleviate some of that by driving down demand for duals.
The reprints can happen: Wotc is simply waiting for the right time when blue needs a boost and if overextended exists already.
The reason Tarmogoyf isn't reprinted is because you can still crack open packs for him. You can't quite do that with staples like FoW.
So it isn't at all possible in your mind that the changes to extended were made because of two very simple reasons:
1. Extended was a dying format that was only played when it absolutely had to be (i.e. during PTQ or PT events or the very few Extended Grand Prix's).
2. Because the various Extended Seasons were so close together that they were basically playing identical formats from one season to the next with very little to no meta changes between them.
These two reasons seem to be the primary reasons I can think of for the changes to extended, not some arbitrary attempt to make a new eternal format.
The reason Tarmogoyf isn't reprinted is because Wizards pretty much has acknowledged that printing him was both a mistake and only because they wanted a poster child for their new card type (i.e. Planeswalkers). If it weren't for the fact that they wanted to display their new planeswalker card type in a set that didn't actually have planeswalkers in it, then they probably would never actually have printed tarmogoyf in the first place and we wouldn't have a Mini-Mox in the form of a creature.
As far as reprints go, do you honestly have any proof to back up your claims that WotC is simply waiting for the right time to reprint any of the stuff from older sets that isn't on the reserved list. Because some of that stuff is simply put, O.P. and I doubt they will ever be stupid enough to reprint it, reprint policy or no.
^ and on top of that, there's nothing stopping them from putting goyf as a fnm foil, judge foil, throwing it in duel decks or arch enemy, etc. Except their will to keep it as an investment worthy card, as none of those above things would affect the standard environment. And of course, you can change goyf to anything else that's expensive but not on the reserve list.
Hell, if they wanted EVERYONE to show up for extended every friday night, they could have just passed out boxes of shocklands and said, hey, go out and get the other cards you needed.
This is a ridiculous comparison. Polymorph is kept in check by the rampant Bolts and Paths that can easily kill a Poly target in response to its casting. Add in countermagic and the presence of Jace and his Unsummon and you have a deck (Polymorph) that is not poised to dominate. The only way to stop NO in Standard would be to Negate, Deprive, or Cancel it. Jund couldn't do anything, and even after the rotation, the aggro decks of the future would be pretty screwed.
During the height of extended, Ravnica shocklands hit at most 20 dollars if you got a bad deal. Most were in the 15-10 dollar range. Fetchlands are expensive because, well, they are awesome and used in every format that has them legal. As to other staples like Depths and Goyf, those are two cards that proved to be expensive given a combination of multi-format demand, dominance, and print runs. But what about Hypergenesis, Scapeshift, and Living End? These were highly viable decks that did not cost much money. Same goes for Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry (admittedly uncommons).
So yes, there IS a difference between expensive and expensive. Legacy is in the latter category, featuring cards that will basically never go down in price, unless Wizards can introduce more of them or slow down demand (Read: Duals).
A new format would not have this problem, especially if Wizards did the intelligent thing and included Shocklands in a reprint-staple set to boost format popularity.
On an earlier Overextended thread on this forum, I posted a set of graphs showing the dual land prices over time. They have steadily risen at a rate that would make any stock investor wet himself. Sadly, we are not stock investors, but Magic card players, and the meteoric and continual rise of Dual prices is going to become a problem, even if it is not already a problem. Legacy's growth is going to be impeded by this, unless Wizards can, as Drago suggests, introduce a dam, so to speak.
A new format, especially one that replaced the ailing Vintage, would split the Eternal Crowd and thus the Eternal card demand. Some cards would be played in both formats, and thus would take a price rise OR stay the same (Path to Exile, Noble Hierarch, Knight, Goyf, Zendikar fetches, etc.). But for the most part, prices of critical Legacy staples on the Reserve List would probably go down or at least stabilize. That is good for this format's health.
There are two categories of reprintable cards here.
1. Legacy staples not on the Reserve List
That means FoW, Wasteland, Natural Order, fetchlands, etc (but mostly the first 2).
2. Future 'staples' of a new format
Shocklands, fetchlands, Rishadan Port, Misdirection, etc. It's speculative as to what decks will be good, but it's a safe bet as to what cards will be good.
The cards in the first category are, in my opinion, unlikely to be printed. They obviously cannot be reprinted in Standard or Extended legal sets, because they are totally format-warping. In many cases, they have been acceptable revised to reflect modern game design. For instance, Wasteland is now Dust Bowl and Tectonic Edge. Force of Will is now Foil, Thwart, Pact of Negation, and Commandeer. Wizards is not going to bring these back in a main set, and the thought of that is laughable.
Now, this does not exclude the possibility of FTV and Master's/Premium set reprints. While this is more possible, it is also unlikely. The only purpose of such sets would be to promote Legacy, a move that I just don't see Wizards doing. Pushing FoW and Wasteland basically pushes all of the Reserve List cards that Wizards just wants to go away; helping Legacy players enter the format drives up demand for the other, non reprintable Legacy staples.
But the second category of cards, the future staples, are far more likely to be reprinted. Some people have suggested that Wizards would do this for economic reasons, as a means to influence the secondary market. I urge you to avoid this line of thinking. Rather, you should consider the following:
Wizards could/should reprint Over Extended staples as part of a premium deck/FTV set designed to promote their new format, NOT to lower prices.
This would be an excellent way to bring players back into the game who have been MIA for a few years, and an excellent way to attract new players. There are many ways that this could work, whether printing special booster packs that have a rare and some other cards that Wizards thinks will be staples, or a fixed card list for a product. Whatever their method, Wizards would succeed in bringing positive press to their new format, increasing THEIR sales (not secondary market ones), and funnel players into a secondary Eternal format that is not the Reserve-List-Plagued Legacy.
Over Extended WILL happen, even if not this year or next year. It is the clear and logical progression of Eternal formats and modern Magic, and if it does not yet have the support base, it will soon.
-ktkenshinx-
I fail to see how you can logically argue an opinion that over extended will happen. All we have to go on is an unfounded rumor, and a change to a format that was completely warranted for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the alleged new format that you guys keep championing. Extended needed these changes to become a viable format in modern magic outside of just a seasonal PTQ format that barely anyone played in.
Thank You, a thousand times, thank you. Overextended was the rumor then and it's still a rumor now. We're no better talking about banning speculation then when we talk about over extended. Jesus, you all sound like the high school kid who is too afraid to ask the girl out because he's not sure if she likes him or not. You don't know anything until you ask her, or in this case, until they make an official statement.
Si, I like cereal.
Extended was adjusted so that the transition from standard to extended to overextended to legacy would be much easier than simply standard, extended and then the huge jump to Legacy
Furthermore, if you truly believe Wotc will not make a eternal format that is not restricted by the reserved list and Legacy continues to grow as it is, then you can kiss Legacy goodbye and watch it go the route Vintage went.
On an earlier Overextended thread on this forum, I posted a set of graphs showing the dual land prices over time. They have steadily risen at a rate that would make any stock investor wet himself. Sadly, we are not stock investors, but Magic card players, and the meteoric and continual rise of Dual prices is going to become a problem, even if it is not already a problem. Legacy's growth is going to be impeded by this, unless Wizards can, as Drago suggests, introduce a dam, so to speak.
A new format, especially one that replaced the ailing Vintage, would split the Eternal Crowd and thus the Eternal card demand. Some cards would be played in both formats, and thus would take a price rise OR stay the same (Path to Exile, Noble Hierarch, Knight, Goyf, Zendikar fetches, etc.). But for the most part, prices of critical Legacy staples on the Reserve List would probably go down or at least stabilize. That is good for this format's health.
If the dual lands are like stocks, then it's possible to assume that the demand will exceed the supply, which at some point will cause the following:
1) Prices of duals go up.
2) Players will lose interest due to outrageous prices.
3) Attendance to Legacy events will drop, leaving only those that do have duals.
4) Legacy stagnates (player count) and loses popularity.
5) Start at 1 and repeat.
Some people argue that cost is not prohibitory for Legacy, but those people are fooling themselves. If WotC cares about Legacy, they will make overextended.
Is the new eternal going to make Legacy attendance increase? Is 'overextended' going to make Legacy grow and gain popularity?
I would like to remind you Drago, that the Original Dual Lands are absolutely NOT required to play Legacy.
Here's the potential Wizards model behind the New Eternal format and its effect on Legacy.
1. Wizards announces the New format as an Eternal Format between Extended and Legacy.
2. Vintage format is either marginalized even further or outright removed from sanctioned play.
3. Wizards announces PTQ and FNM schedule for new format.
4. A portion of Legacy players who have not fully invested in Legacy staples move to the new format, whether for financial reasons or to enjoy a new experience.
5. A large portion of prospective Legacy players, given the choice between the two formats and the necessary monetary investments in one versus the other, choose to enter the new format as opposed to Legacy.
6. The Legacy boom that has been happening for the last year or so slows down or even halts altogether, with new players split between the new eternal format and Legacy.
7. Legacy card prices calm down for a while. Some might even decrease, with speculators selling for fear of the new format's effects on their cards.
8. With Legacy prices more stable and regulated by a secondary, popular eternal format (as opposed to the incredibly undersupported Vintage format), the players who want to enter Legacy will have an easier time doing so.
Now, I understand that there are a million 8+ point charts that anyone here could make that refute this one. There are also countless possibilities that could confound this model and produce a different outcome. But this is something that could definitely happen if Wizards plays their proverbial cards right in relation to the new format.
Would attendance to Legacy events actually increase? Probably not. But it would definitely have a better future than it currently does.
That's about as true as saying that you can play blue in Standard without Jace the Mind Sculptor. You are right in the literal sense, but not in the practical and applied senses.
Look at the current DTB section on this very site:
1. ANT: 4 Underground Sea
2. Merfolk: If you aren't using the Goyf or +W version, then none. Otherwise, requires 4 of the respective kind (Tundra/Trop)
3. CounterTop: Consistently 6+ duals.
4. Reanimator: 4 Underground Sea
5. New Horizons: Boddy's list from SCG Seattle used 6. Both lists from SCG Philly also used 6 each.
6. Zoo: Elias's list used 6 at SCG Philly, as did all other Zoo players in that event.
That's a lot of duals. If you want to play a consistently victorious deck in Legacy, you really need to have access to duals. There are good decks that don't use a lot of them, but the best decks definitely require them.
Future impact of the dual-demand? As more players want to play decks with duals, more duals will be bought and fewer will exist in the general supply. The result is a lack of duals in circulation, and rising prices (moreso than they already are, which is considerable).
That's an incredibly bad comparison. A better one: OverExtended supporters are like the old Legacy crowd from pre-2004 who clamored for a separation of the Vintage B/R list and the Legacy one. Wizards listened. Their employees read these boards and listen to their players, and debate/conversation like this can expose both problems and benefits of a new Eternal format from MM onwards. Who better to consult than the Legacy players themselves? That's how Wizards might very well view it, and we should not be hesitant to oblige their curiosity.
-ktkenshinx-
This is so untrue. If this were the case, a lot of major changes that have occured throughout magic's history would NOT have happened.
Si, I like cereal.
I hate to tell you this, but your entire platform that you just described would flat line the collections of just about every collector with cards from the reserved list in it due the nature of how you are describing this. This is because the people who invested in these cards would be nearly unable or completely unable to get rid of the cards in the event of this new formats creation as everyone who matters already has these cards, and those who don't have them no longer want them. As such, the entire point of having the reserved list be reinforced in the first place becomes null & void.
Counterintuitive much? I think so.
Bear in mind that two of those decks will no longer be Decks to Beat as of July First, at least in theory. And just because you listed the Decks to Beat of the current meta, does not mean that any of those will be the decks to beat of the July First and forward Meta (with the possible exception of Zoo). Simply put, that is a biased way to look at things.That's about as true as saying that you can play blue in Standard without Jace the Mind Sculptor. You are right in the literal sense, but not in the practical and applied senses.
Look at the current DTB section on this very site:
1. ANT: 4 Underground Sea
2. Merfolk: If you aren't using the Goyf or +W version, then none. Otherwise, requires 4 of the respective kind (Tundra/Trop)
3. CounterTop: Consistently 6+ duals.
4. Reanimator: 4 Underground Sea
5. New Horizons: Boddy's list from SCG Seattle used 6. Both lists from SCG Philly also used 6 each.
6. Zoo: Elias's list used 6 at SCG Philly, as did all other Zoo players in that event.
That's a lot of duals. If you want to play a consistently victorious deck in Legacy, you really need to have access to duals. There are good decks that don't use a lot of them, but the best decks definitely require them.
True, but keep in mind that once you have your duals you no longer need any. Additionally I have seen extremely successful legacy decks utilizing the Ravnica Duals which helps lower the barrier to entry as well.Future impact of the dual-demand? As more players want to play decks with duals, more duals will be bought and fewer will exist in the general supply. The result is a lack of duals in circulation, and rising prices (moreso than they already are, which is considerable).
I would like to remind you that Power 9 is NOT required to play Vintage.
that is a poor comparison not to mention probably a falacy of some sort.
There are numerous viable and highly competitive decks that do not use a single original dual land in Legacy. On the other hand I can't think of a single highly competitive deck within vintage that does not use the power 9. I am sure there is possibly ONE, but I don't know what it is.
Because no one will ever want to try and invest in Legacy after the creation of overextended. Yup, that's a nice crystal ball you got there.
You missed the entire point of his post. He wasn't stating that overextended will cause the price of duals to crash, but to cause them to level out so there isn't such a high demand for a limited card supply.
If nothing is done to Legacy, the prices of duals WILL crash at some point once they become too expensive.
That's actually a very good comparison.
Name one beyond Merfolk that is Tier 1.There are numerous viable and highly competitive decks that do not use a single original dual land in Legacy.
That's because Vintage tournaments are dead relatively.On the other hand I can't think of a single highly competitive deck within vintage that does not use the power 9. I am sure there is possibly ONE, but I don't know what it is.
that... depends enirely on how or if over extended is implemented. If it is done by a mass banning of cards within legacy itself. Then yes, it will cause the prices of cards in Legacy to plummet like rocks thrown off the side of the Empire State Building.
If however it is done to be a suplement to Legacy and Vintage, not to replace them outright, and it is campaigned as such, as well as the tournaments for both Vintage and Legacy continue to garner support from the DCI and WPN, then no prices will not plummet.
All told it is all dependent on how WotC approaches a hypothetical (and yes, it is still only a hypothetical at this point) new format.
EDIT: Merfolk is not always a mono-color deck. In fact I think Mono-Blue Merfolk isn't even Tier 1 anymore. I think it would be a better task to name decks that are currently Tier 1.5, but poised to become better than that once July First rolls along due to the banning that just occurred. One such deck is Death and Taxes. That deck is by far majority a mono-white deck, and it is 90 to 100% off the reserved list. Further it is one of the few decks that absolutely gains momentum by the July First Ban List update.
Vintage Tournaments still occur, they just happen to be unsanctioned in most places. However there is an annual Vintage Sanctioned Championship that I am aware of held in the United States at Gen Con, or at least it had been occurring up til recently.
EDIT2: I also find it exceedingly hard to believe that WotC would screw Legacy over this badly (by creating a new competing eternal format) this close to the official release of Legacy as a tournament format on Magic Online. It seems counter intuitive.
Overextended is going to be a different format. Nothing is being done to Legacy directly.
EDIT: Merfolk is not always a mono-color deck. In fact I think Mono-Blue Merfolk isn't even Tier 1 anymore. I think it would be a better task to name decks that are currently Tier 1.5, but poised to become better than that once July First rolls along due to the banning that just occurred. One such deck is Death and Taxes. That deck is by far majority a mono-white deck, and it is 90 to 100% off the reserved list. Further it is one of the few decks that absolutely gains momentum by the July First Ban List update.
Seriously? Death and Taxes?
I get the feeling that you aren't even reading my posts at all and are simply posting your opinion regardless of what facts or opinions are present.
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