Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 101

Thread: [Deck] NO Elves

  1. #1

    [Deck] NO Elves


    The aim of this topic is to discuss a very specific variant, NO Elves. Because Elves is a popular tribe, many people try their own variant on the deck. What I'd like to present is a decklist and philosphy that has been tried and tested to work well in the Legacy environment.

    Survival Elves is another archetype, as is Combo Elves. Each have their own strategy and usually prefer to win with a combo win. These decks should be discussed in other dedicated topics.

    Decks that fall in this category are tribal Elves deck that utilize the mana production of Elves to create tempo differences and also play Natural Order with Progenitus.

    The deck has been in development since September 2008.
    The deck has been made with the intention to create a Tribal Elves deck fit for a regular Legacy meta.
    Result 2/18 Naz (2nd place)
    Result Quarter Finals, SGC LA copenhagen1221
    Result 3-0-1 leeties (shared 1st)
    Result4-0-2 Mihailo (GP Paris side event)
    Result24th/151 Tru3z3rox (SGC San Jose)
    Result1st/2nd out of 51 Lukas Maurer (O_o_O_o-O_o)
    ResultT16 out of 208 Naz (Dutch National Championships)
    Result1st/? Sengir Paladin
    Result3rd/16 Naz (undefeated in the swiss)
    Result4th/43 Tru3z3rox
    Result3rd/144 Lukas Maurer (GP Lyon side-event)
    Result 2nd/25 Lukas Maurer Report
    Result 4th/35 Johannes Hauer
    Result 1st/10 Naz
    Result 2nd place bodul
    Result 4th/35 Naz
    Result 1st/18 Lukas Maurer
    Result 4-2 AnotherDay
    Result 4th/17 Magico
    Result 2nd/22 Tru3z3rox


    The Core

    // Lands

    14 Forest
    4 Wasteland
    1 Gaea's Cradle
    // Elves
    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Elvish Archdruid
    4 Priest of Titania
    4 Elvish Champion
    4 Imperious Perfect
    4 Sylvan Messenger

    // Other
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus

    The core of this deck consists of 55 cards, that's a lot! That doesn't mean there's a lot of freedom to choose from here, but there's several options out there.

    Deck explanation

    These are the necessary components in a NO Elves deck.

    Tempo
    The deck utilizes mana production creatures that allow you to create tempo differences. Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves together with Quirion Ranger are responsible for this. Couple this together with Wasteland and you put yourself in a very favorable position compared to your opponent.

    Card Advantage
    There are a few cards available for Elves that allow you to gain card advantage over your opponent. Imperious Perfect, Wolf-Skull Shaman, [CARD]Elvish Visionary[/CARD] and Sylvan Messenger. If any of them resolve and stick you'll be capable of creating a lot of CA in the course of the game. An aggro deck without card advantage should play Zoo or Sligh instead.

    Mana Production
    The card advantage engine wouldn't have been all that effective isn't wasn't for Elves's ability to create a lot of mana in a short time. The deck contains 10 cards that allow you to create an unfair amount of mana. Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid and Gaea's Cradle.

    The Aggro Component
    Part of Elves is that the above engines can quickly be turned into strong aggro components. Elves decks Utilize at least 12 Lords; Elvish Champion - which gives you a huge advantage against any green deck, Imperious Perfect - which also creates CA, and Elvish Archdruid - which also doubles as mana production. Often, also Tribal Forcemage or Joraga Warcaller is used as a singleton, both are cards that are amazing at delivering a finishing blow. New Mirrodin brought us [CARD]Ezuri, Renegade Leader[/CARD] which has several powerful applications.

    The Natural Order package
    Natural Order is a card that has proven itself in the legacy scene eversince Progenitus has been printed. If one of the above components fails you will always have NO as a backup plan. Natural Order also allows you sideboard flexibility by having access to cards like [card]Terastodon[/card] and [card]Empyrial Archangel[/card]. If you want more options mainboard, Deranged Hermit is also an option as a NO target.

    New tech; Green Sun's Zenith
    Mirrodin Besieged brought us a new toy to play with: GSZ. This card is a tutor for every card in your deck. In all scenario's it gives you something that fits the gamestate. The only downside it has is that it lowers the Elf count for Sylvan Messenger. GSZ is accompanied by a singleton [CARD]Dryad Arbor[/CARD] to automatically turn it into a turn 1 Llanowar Elf if needed.

    The Sideboard

    In order to create a sideboard for the deck you need to identify the weaknesses of the deck.

    Problem enchantments and artifacts
    Mainboard cards like Humility, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge and Solitary Confinement can give NO Elves players problems. There's also a secondary tier of cards that aren't quite as problematic, but still are convenient to remove like Survival of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, Seismic Assault, Isochron's Scepter, Painter's Servant with Grindstone, Counterbalance, Engineered Plague and Smokestack. In order to deal with this, the following package of sideboard cards is recommended:

    [deck]4 Krosan Grip
    4 Nature's Claim
    1 Terastodon
    1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre[/deck]
    With 4 Krosan Grips and 1 Terastodon you're running 9 Disenchant effects postboard. Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre also comes in against Painter decks and non interactive decks like Enchantress, where 11 mana is feasible and realistic to reach. A 1 off Viridian Zealot mainboard or sideboard can also be used as a tutor target.

    Mass removal
    Elves is a deck that typically deploys a lot of creatures and because of that has a weakness in mass removal. The main way to deal is simple: play smarter. The deck already deploys card advantage and Natural Order to deal with a majority of the mass removal. [card]Nature's Resurgence[/card] is another nice card against decks that pack a lot of mass removal. There's also Caller of the Claw which, if used correctly, can be a potent threat against mass removal. Another card that is worth looking into is Eldrazi Monument, it's a very hard card to deal with for many decks in the format.

    Burn and Sligh decks
    These decks are not weak matchups by any means. They are more or less 50/50 depending on who starts. However, to make this MU more failsafe a singleton Empyrial Archangel as a Natural Order target makes the difference between a winnable and unwinnable matchup for the two decks.

    Graveyard based decks
    The graveyard is a common resource in Legacy. There are two types of graveyard decks. The ones where you need GY hate, because otherwise you have a lot of trouble. And the ones where GY hate is convenient but not neccesary.

    In the first category fall Dredge, and Reanimator. These two decks are made to combat hate postboard and as such, need a diverse hate. There are many cards to use in this scenario: Tormod's Crypt, Relic of the Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Ravenous Trap. If you prepare for these decks, make sure you have a varied hate package.

    The second category include Aggro Loam, Lands, Intuition Loam, New Horizons, Tempo ********. Against these decks, I wouldn't go full out with GY hate, even when you have the possibility. Board about 3 cards in, usually 1-2 Crypt and 1-2 Relic.

    Green Sun's Zenith toolbox
    If you're playing GSZ you usually have pretty strong enchantment removal mainboard already. Usually in the form of Terastodon and Viridian Zealot; this implicates you usually got more space in your sideboard. Gaddock Teeg is a good card against many decks in the format that can be fetched up by GSZ, especially the application against combo is amazing. Dauntless Escort is good against mass removal.

    Combo decks
    In the construction of your sideboard you need to make the choice if you drop the combo matchup. Against ANT, NLS, TES and Solidarity it is very unlikely you will win without brining 6+ cards in from the board. This means you need to drop the Dredge and Reanimator matchup. If you do, bring a combination of the following cards: Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of the Amethyst and also 2 Tormod's Crypt+ Terastodon. Board out Progenitus, the Messengers and the Wolves because they're not any good in this matchup.

    Suggested sideboard
    There are two matchups against which Elves will always have trouble. Combo and Graveyard combo, when you want to hate out these decks, don't hate thin; go all out. If you board in 4 cards and lost because you didn't board enough cards you basically wasted sideboard space. Also; and this is important: Diversify you hate; quoting myself on another forum:
    There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.
    Core:
    [decks]2 Krosan Grip
    2 Nature's Claim
    [/decks]
    Combo Heavy:
    [decks]1 Chalice of the void
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Null Rod
    1 Thorn of the Amethyst[/decks]
    Control and GY decks
    [decks]1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Ravenous Trap
    1 Wheel of Sun and Moon[/decks]
    More sideboard variations are entirely possible. If you have suggestions about sideboards that cover the weaknesses post them in this topic and I'll gladly put them in. Remember that you always have [decks]Gaddock Teeg[/decks] as additional hate.

    Matchups

    Positive Matchups

    Merfolk
    Merfolk is a tribal deck with a relatively weak tribal component compared to Elves. We shoot way too much stuff at them for them to compete. Builds which include Coralhelm Commander are slightly harder but not significantly. Games against Merfolk are either even, or a total blowout.
    Board in - nothing
    Board out - nothing


    UWg Threshold
    Threshold is a great deck, and Counter/Top can give you a hard time when established. But it's still a deck we prey on and have a positive matchup against. Much like Merfolk, it's either even or a total blowout.
    Board in - 3-4 Krosan Grips
    Board out - 1 Quirion Ranger, 2 Wolf-Skull Shaman


    Bant Survival
    This is slightly harder then the UWg ******** version of bant, but still not undoable. If they resolve an Iona you're in trouble, but if you resolve a Progenitus they are just as dead. Forestwalk helps here as well.
    Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
    Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman


    Goblins
    This matchup is very dependent on who starts but still a matchup you want to have. Modern Goblins don't run Mogg Fanatic nor Sharpshooter anymore. In the aggro race you should win, you usually create more CA faster. A resolved NO usually means GG.
    Board in - Nothing
    Board out - Nothing


    New Horizons
    A tempo deck that preys on weak manabases is not a deck that wants to play against you. They can get big but are hurt by both NO, your CA and forestwalk. As well as their inability to seriously disrupt your gameplan.
    Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
    Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman


    Eva Green
    This deck tries to do something similar to New Horizons that just doesn't work that well against you - disrupt your manabase. Game 1 should almost always result in a win. It gets interesting game 2 and 3 where you are forced to not overextend because of Perish.
    Board in - 2 Nature's Resurgence
    Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage, 1 WSS


    Bant Aggro with NO Prog
    You both have the Progenitus package, but Elves plays way more creatures and generates more CA.
    Board in - Nothing
    Board out - Nothing


    White Stax - any stax
    Stax effects are another thing that just don't work that well against you. Tabernacle? Sure, Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid. If you have a turn 1 Llanowar Elf and two lands in hand it usually is really hard to lose this.
    Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
    Board out - 3 Wolf-Skull Shaman


    Even matchups and mediocre matchups

    [B}U/b Saito Merfolk[/b]
    I wrote up a bit about this match-up here
    Preboard this is the same winnable matchup, postboard you're in for some really hard games.

    Zoo
    Zoo is a deck that can blow you out, but if the game lasts long enough you'll always get the upperhand. Take damage early game and try to stabilize somewhere around 10 life. Once you get either enough lords or a Progenitus in play you can start winning.
    Board in - 1 Empyrial Archangel
    Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage


    Supreme Blue
    Supreme blue is like UWg Threshold except that it also runs Firespout. Which means you either need to get lords into play quickly or resolve NO or not overextend. CA engines are important in this matchup.
    Board in - 2 Nature's Resurgence
    Board out - 1 Tribal Forcemage, 1 Quirion Ranger


    Landstill
    This one actually edges out to more negative, but it doesn't have to be. Your hand determines this game. Either set yourself up for the long game and play conservative or play all out aggro and win before they reach 4 mana. Both are possibilities.
    Board in - 4 Krosan Grip, 2 Nature's Resurgence on the draw
    4 Krosan Grip on the play
    Board out - 4 Elvish Champion 1 Quirion Ranger 1 Sylvan Messenger on the draw
    4 Sylvan Messengers on the play


    Enchantress
    Game one you have no other chance then racing them. Which on occasion can work. The deck can win by turn 3. Postboard you bring out 10 Disenchant effects.
    Board in - 2 Krosan Grip, 2 Nature's Claim 1 Terastodon, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
    Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger


    Lands
    Save your wastelands, preferably keep them in your hand. Establish a board pressence that allows your to finish them off (forestwalk!). Occasionally you can race them. Board in graveyard hate to prevent locks.
    Board in - 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Ravenous Trap 1 Terastodon
    Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger, 2 WSS


    Aggro Loam
    Two options again, a fast attack, which extremely dangerous against this deck. Or a slow game where you play conservative. Quirion Ranger is extremely important here. Stay on a low land count so a DD won't kill your entire land base. NO Prog can only be dealt with by BWish into Perish for aggro loam so that's a strong play.
    Board in - 2 GY hate or sweepers hate on the draw
    Board out - Don't board out any card advantage or NO's


    UW Tempo - NoGoyf
    This isn't always an even matchup. I've played many times against UWT players where the match was a total blowout. Only when you play against a good player this becomes an even matchup. Serra Avenger with a Jitte is a big problem. They board in Ethersworn Cannonist which is annoying, but not impossible to deal with. You probably do not want this game to last long.
    Board in - 2-3 Krosan Grip on the draw
    Board out - 2-3 Elvish Champion on the draw


    Death and Taxes
    A very similar matchup as the above. But more dependent on the build as well. If the player uses Catalysm you're in trouble. Otherwise, they don't have any counters so just throw eveything out.
    Board in - Usually nothing
    Board out - Usually nothing


    Canadian Threshold
    The "outdated" version of New Horizons, but much stronger against Elves then NH. They got Fire, Bolts and often Pyroclasm in the board. Still, since the adoption of 4 extra lords and Proggy this matchup isn't too bad. Attack their GY with Crypts and Relics.
    Board in - 2 Tormod's Crypt 1 Relic of Progenitus - or nothing
    Board out - Worst 3 cards, depends


    Bad matchups

    Storm Combo - NLS, ANT, TES, DDANT, Solidarity
    This is a bad matchup by definition. The mainboard isn't made to fight this at all. If you expect a lot of combo you can tune your sideboard to fight it, but you require 6+ spots.
    Board in - All combo hate you have + Terastodon + Tormod's Crypt for IGG
    Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger


    Belcher
    Belcher is actually less of a bad matchup the Storm Combo is. I've faced 10 Goblins turn 1 on the play before and you can usually pump out creatures fast enough to overcome the little green man. The Belcher kill can be dealt with by Grips - if you're fast enough
    Board in - 4 Krosan Grips + relevant combo hate
    Board out - 4 Sylvan Messenger


    Dredge
    Dredge is a deck known to win their game one. Against Elves this won't be any different. Game 1 you can only win if you get a turn 2 Progenitus (Llanowar Elves, Quirion Ranger, Gaea's Cradle, Natural Order and Forest) or a really fast aggro start.
    Game two is all about the hate you bring in. In a regular sideboard, this should be a lot. Attack their mana base as it severely hinders their progress.
    Board in - All relevant GY hate
    Board out - Messengers, WSS
    Last edited by Nessaja; 05-02-2011 at 06:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Member
    1maarten1's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2008
    Location

    Netherlands
    Posts

    209

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    nice primer :) I placed 9th today in Utrecht, where you won yesterday ;). I was playing Combo elves tho, but with Progenitus + NO. The games I won through combo and Prog are about the same. If you want I can post my matchups and, if I remember, write something about them ;). (I already post this in the benelegacy thread)

    Anyway I am going to test a more aggro combo build, but still combo but with jorega warcallers as win-con.

    ~Maarten

  3. #3
    Psycho Crusher
    Plague Sliver's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2010
    Location

    The 'Jing
    Posts

    496

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Forgive me if I'm missing something ... what do you do when you draw Progenitus into your hand? How does the deck cycle it back into library?
    A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"

  4. #4
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    MN
    Posts

    328

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    You are not missing anything. Accept that you drew it, and either not natural order or natural order into the best green creature left in your deck. Probably a messenger to reload, forestwalk, or a different lord.

  5. #5

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Hands with Prog in it I usually mull. There's no sense in putting discard outlets in your deck for a 1/60 chance. The times you got NO and Prog in hand you go for the Messenger indeed.

    I can't recall a single game where I lost because I drew the Progenitus though.

  6. #6
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2009
    Location

    Sweden
    Posts

    52

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    Hands with Prog in it I usually mull. There's no sense in putting discard outlets in your deck for a 1/60 chance. The times you got NO and Prog in hand you go for the Messenger indeed.

    I can't recall a single game where I lost because I drew the Progenitus though.
    In the case of mulling and going down one card, you look at your hand and see if it works even though you have Progenitus in it.
    If you have a really good/decent starting hand of 7, with Progenitus in it. It would simply play out as 6 cards anyway.
    I'm just saying, automulling if you have progenitus in your starting 7, 6 or 5 isn't that bad, if the hand got game without NO.

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.

  8. #8
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2010
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    350

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Is it terrible not running quiron ranger in the deck? I like her, but I find that she is a terrible top deck and I don't usually need her mana tricks anyway.

    Also what do you guys think of running 2 steely resolves in the main? Now that zoo will be more prevalent there may be a need for these. I'm running them instead of thorns as combo shouldn't be too much of a problem anymore.

  9. #9

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Combo Winter View Post
    Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.
    Compare the above list with the list in the first post of the elf aggro thread.


    12 Forests
    2 Wasteland
    2 Horizon Canopy
    2 Gaea's cradle
    1 Oran Rief the Vastwood
    4 Root Maze
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Elephant Grass
    4 ESG
    4 Elvish Champion
    4 Imperious Perfect
    4 Sylvan Messenger
    4 Priest of Titania
    3 Llanowar elves
    3 Fyndhorn elves
    2 Wren's Run vanquisher
    2 Elvish Archdruid
    2 Wren's Run Packmaster

    Not really the same, are they? The lists in the elvish survival thread or combo elves are all even MORE different.

  10. #10
    Member
    leander?'s Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2007
    Location

    Nijmegen, The Netherlands
    Posts

    150

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    New Horizons
    [I]Board in - 3 Krosan Grip
    I don't get this. What relevant Artifacts and/or Enchantments in New Horizons am I missing? Is Dueling Grounds that common in their Sideboards?

    Also, I was wondering what your reasoning is behind not playing Survival of the Fittest. What makes this build better than the Survival build?

  11. #11

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by leander? View Post
    I don't get this. What relevant Artifacts and/or Enchantments in New Horizons am I missing? Is Dueling Grounds that common in their Sideboards?

    Also, I was wondering what your reasoning is behind not playing Survival of the Fittest. What makes this build better than the Survival build?
    Correct, it should be +2 Crypt +1 Relic. The primer was made with a lot of ctrl+c -> ctrl + v to prevent carpel tunnel syndrome >>

    Anyway, the reasoning for not playing SotF is manyfold. If you've kept up with the Epic Survival topic you might've noticed that Di (creator of that deck) even moved away from using Survivals.

    - SotF puts you in the position where you need to make suboptimal choices in your deck building to build it around SotF. Otherwise dead cards and alike.
    - SotF and Wasteland don't like eachother.
    - Playing SotF means that you pretty much need to splash, this makes you vulnerable to a whole new deck type, popular in legacy.
    - Quasali Pridemage
    - You lower your Elf count which matters for about 23 of your cards
    - We got no real way to deal with multiples, it's not neccesarily always a good thing to have multiples in this deck, especially if paired with NO's.

    I urge you to try the two decks alongside and notice that the strong and weak matchups are actually quite different. As for Survival Elves, I'm fairly certain that Bant Survival is the better option when you're playing that type of deck, or in other words, Survival Elves is a suboptimal version of Bant Survival as far as I'm concerned. NO Elves has a much more focussed approach and is harder to disrupt for most decks.

    Elves is a tribe whose main focus is on another part of the game that Survival is strong at. It's like playing WoG in a tempo oriented deck. It strays away so far from the general gameplan. It's also similar to playing Foodchain Goblins over Vial Goblins, you're going into an area where you prefer not to be when playing Goblins, even though it gives you a combo finish and more certainty to win the long game. But Elves in its current incarnation already has a rediculously strong game that isn't matched by many decks. Only Landstill -esque decks give it trouble there.

    Unlike NO, SotF is not a card that you simply put in a deck and keep everything else the same. So far, all my attempts at including NO in the deck only made the deck less consistent and/or slower. What you might gain is a better matchup against The Rock, it certainly won't against Zoo or other fast aggro.

    Now don't get me wrong, it's not something that is totally wrong or something alike. It's different. In the last two years I've gone on and off on Survival and what I learned is that, while it's a powerful card, it's not a card you can rely on in legacy. It's a bomb where you should probably have an aggro oriented card in the 2 mana spot. The obvious thing to do would be -4 WSS into +4 SotF and a Squee, probably getting rid of a Elvish Champion. I don't neccesarily judge this as wrong but I do want to say this. Any time that SotF is not in play you'll be playing a worse version of the deck, getting less out of your synergies, getting worse Messenger piles, a topdecked SotF with only NO in hand is really bad - and this works vice versa too. What you get are these minor weaknesses that make the deck less consistent. The times where SotF makes you win a game that you otherwise wouldn't are just far less then the times it gets in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combo Winter View Post
    Isn't this just a form of aggro elves I don't see how you have a differnet plan than any other elf beatdown deck.
    As Tru3z3rox said, this game doesn't have much in common with the Aggro Elves topic here on the source. That build is aggro control which I do not believe to be the right course for Aggro Elves. When compared to combo elves there's almost nothing in common and when compared to Survival Elves you're using an entirely different engine.

    Tre3z3rox - yes, not running Quirion Ranger is not a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Though I am interested what you have in mind for her instead.
    Last edited by Nessaja; 06-28-2010 at 03:53 PM.

  12. #12

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    I've only played aggro elves w/o NO and I can definitely say that this list plays very differently than something with Wren's Run Vanquisher.

    Any thoughts on maindecking some sort of alternate NO target (Terastodon to blow up problem permanents? Primeval Titan to "fetch" two wastelands on a huge trampling body?) to go alongside Progenitus? It's almost always the right call to get the hydra out, I suppose, but the allure of having something big and high impact off a second NO since you're running four already seems pretty high, at least to this outsider looking in. Then again, it might be the danger of cool things talking.

    You might want to look at leaning on Relic of Progenitus for your GY hate if Reanimator winds up slowing down a bit. It's a good way to continuously deal with Lavamancer (which is a problem, if they want to blow a pridemage to "solve it", while you draw a card, OK), it blows out New Horizons, and seems as solid against Loam strategies as Crypt is.

  13. #13
    Member
    leander?'s Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2007
    Location

    Nijmegen, The Netherlands
    Posts

    150

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    The only situation I can come up with in wich a second NO target is usefull is a Moat stopping your Hydra from attacking. In that case you would want to tutor for Terrastodon. But that is about it, too. (I can't find anything about this "Primeval Titan", maybe you mean Woodfall Primus?)

    Oh, and about Relic: I can add that VS Aggro Loam, it's much better than Crypt.

  14. #14
    .....
    Mayk0l's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2008
    Location

    Leiden - Netherlands
    Posts

    253

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Primeval Titan is the new M11 card.

    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1277698427

    I don't think it's good enough.
    This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo

  15. #15
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2010
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    350

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    Correct, it should be +2 Crypt +1 Relic. The primer was made with a lot of ctrl+c -> ctrl + v to prevent carpel tunnel syndrome >>

    Anyway, the reasoning for not playing SotF is manyfold. If you've kept up with the Epic Survival topic you might've noticed that Di (creator of that deck) even moved away from using Survivals.

    - SotF puts you in the position where you need to make suboptimal choices in your deck building to build it around SotF. Otherwise dead cards and alike.
    - SotF and Wasteland don't like eachother.
    - Playing SotF means that you pretty much need to splash, this makes you vulnerable to a whole new deck type, popular in legacy.
    - Quasali Pridemage
    - You lower your Elf count which matters for about 23 of your cards
    - We got no real way to deal with multiples, it's not neccesarily always a good thing to have multiples in this deck, especially if paired with NO's.

    I urge you to try the two decks alongside and notice that the strong and weak matchups are actually quite different. As for Survival Elves, I'm fairly certain that Bant Survival is the better option when you're playing that type of deck, or in other words, Survival Elves is a suboptimal version of Bant Survival as far as I'm concerned. NO Elves has a much more focussed approach and is harder to disrupt for most decks.

    Elves is a tribe whose main focus is on another part of the game that Survival is strong at. It's like playing WoG in a tempo oriented deck. It strays away so far from the general gameplan. It's also similar to playing Foodchain Goblins over Vial Goblins, you're going into an area where you prefer not to be when playing Goblins, even though it gives you a combo finish and more certainty to win the long game. But Elves in its current incarnation already has a rediculously strong game that isn't matched by many decks. Only Landstill -esque decks give it trouble there.

    Unlike NO, SotF is not a card that you simply put in a deck and keep everything else the same. So far, all my attempts at including NO in the deck only made the deck less consistent and/or slower. What you might gain is a better matchup against The Rock, it certainly won't against Zoo or other fast aggro.

    Now don't get me wrong, it's not something that is totally wrong or something alike. It's different. In the last two years I've gone on and off on Survival and what I learned is that, while it's a powerful card, it's not a card you can rely on in legacy. It's a bomb where you should probably have an aggro oriented card in the 2 mana spot. The obvious thing to do would be -4 WSS into +4 SotF and a Squee, probably getting rid of a Elvish Champion. I don't neccesarily judge this as wrong but I do want to say this. Any time that SotF is not in play you'll be playing a worse version of the deck, getting less out of your synergies, getting worse Messenger piles, a topdecked SotF with only NO in hand is really bad - and this works vice versa too. What you get are these minor weaknesses that make the deck less consistent. The times where SotF makes you win a game that you otherwise wouldn't are just far less then the times it gets in the way.


    As Tru3z3rox said, this game doesn't have much in common with the Aggro Elves topic here on the source. That build is aggro control which I do not believe to be the right course for Aggro Elves. When compared to combo elves there's almost nothing in common and when compared to Survival Elves you're using an entirely different engine.

    Tre3z3rox - yes, not running Quirion Ranger is not a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Though I am interested what you have in mind for her instead.
    I run 2 Steely Resolves to shroud up my elves. It helps a lot against burn and removal. Aside from that I have a pretty typical list.

    Lands:
    13 Forest
    2 Gaea's Cradle
    3 Wasteland

    NO Prog Package:
    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus

    Enchantments:
    2 Steely Resolve

    Creatures:
    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Sylvan Messenger
    4 Imperious Perfect
    4 Priest of Titania
    4 Elvish Archdruid
    3 Elvish Champion
    2 Tribal Forcemage
    3 Joraga Warcaller
    3 Wren's Run Vanquisher


    My board is in transition from hating combo to hating a more aggro meta game and decks packing mass removal now. You guys have any recommendations for a good all around board?

    P.S. - The reason for me not running quiron is that she is a terrible topdeck and she does not really affect the board when she hits. Granted she can give me tons of mana; but between 8 mana dorks, 4 priests, 4 archdruids, and 2 cradles I'm never really hurting for mana...

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Concerning WSS, maybe this will be his replacement.



    This card puzzles me, it's inferior to Survival, but also much better at the same time. In the sense that it blocks, gains bonuses, is infinitely better as a lone topdeck without cards in hand, draws of messenger, can be sacced for Natural Order and is also good in multiples.

    As such, I think I might add in 3 Fauna Shaman, 1 Survival of the Fittest 1 Squee for 4 WSS and something else.

  17. #17
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2009
    Location

    Sweden
    Posts

    52

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    I'm puzzled for a complete other reason... All elf decks state that Zoo/Boros are even matchups... But I can't simply understand how...
    In each match, both in testing and tournamet, I get my balls burned out when piloting elves...
    I've tested the combo Elves, Survival Elves, Aggro Elves with and without NO...
    The only card that remotely gives me a theoretical chance at winning is a T2 NO hoping that they can't burn the sac in response or burn it out even earlier...

    What's the deal? How should I play against Zoo? Slow roll them or just straight out force in my creatures.
    I've been trying everything without success, even maindeck Absolute Law etc.

  18. #18

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Wait, it's been my understanding with NO that you sacrifice a green creature as an additional cost of casting the spell. They can't burn out/path to exile your green dude in response to you casting it-at that point it is already too late for them.

    As for the Fauna Shaman, I think you can just add 2-3 copies right to the deck for whatever two-drop you are currently playing and be done with it. Instead of trying to use it as a Surivial engine with Squee (who takes another slot and is a dead draw w/o a active one on the board), just punish players who don't kill it by exchanging a one-drop elf for a card advantage generator like Sylvan Messenger or Imperious Perfect.

    Fauna Shaman also plays great in decks with Elvish Spirit Guide, as a vanilla 2/2 for 3 mana is icky if you have an established board, and "cycling it" to instead grab another lord or messenger would be much preferable.

  19. #19

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by routlaw View Post
    Wait, it's been my understanding with NO that you sacrifice a green creature as an additional cost of casting the spell. They can't burn out/path to exile your green dude in response to you casting it-at that point it is already too late for them.
    Correct.

    For Zoo, play it slow, if you can stabilize before 5-8 life you'll win it, you got much more CA then they do.

    I'm not sure about Fauna Shaman yet. I don't know if it's better then WSS if I don't use Squee.

  20. #20
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2009
    Location

    Sweden
    Posts

    52

    Re: [Deck] NO Elves

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    Correct.

    For Zoo, play it slow, if you can stabilize before 5-8 life you'll win it, you got much more CA then they do.

    I'm not sure about Fauna Shaman yet. I don't know if it's better then WSS if I don't use Squee.
    Ofc, they can't burn it in response. Stupid me. But i was thinking of the scenario that they keep my board clean so that I can't NO.

    Anyway... I'll try and play it safe... I'm trying out a list like this now:


    2 Wooded Foothills
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Oran-Rief, The Vastwood
    4 Wasteland
    3 Forest
    1 Taiga
    3 Horizon Canopy
    1 Savannah

    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Fyndhorn Elves
    3 Wirewood Symbiote
    2 Quirion Ranger
    3 Priest of Titania
    4 Fauna Shaman
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide
    1 Elvish Champion
    4 Elvish Archdruid
    2 Imperious Perfect
    4 Sylvan Messenger
    1 Norwood Priestess
    1 Deranged Hermit
    1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    1 Anger
    1 Progenitus

    4 Natural Order

    Sideboard:
    4 Krosan Grip
    3 Swords to Plowshares (I really hate zoo)
    3 Chalice of the void (don't really know what to use it against besides combo?)
    1 Viridian Zealot
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Caller of the Claw
    1 Magus of the Moon

    Thinking of what people said about just ignoring Anger and Squee. But Squee makes the Survival/Fauna Engine CA. Instead of 1 for 1.
    It will show in testing, and yes... I know the lists goes more towards Survival at the moment, but I consider it more Aggro with silver bullets due to Fauna actually being a creature.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)