For everyone who doesn't know, Willie Bloomquist is the utility infielder for the Kansas City Royals baseball team. And he's terrible. I mean, just really bad. But he plays a fair amount and always gets praise from management because he hustles, does all the little things, and can "play anywhere". The problem is, that while he can indeed play anywhere, he plays everywhere badly.
This reminds me a lot of Standstill as a card. I continue to be confused and astounded that people are A) still putting this into their decklists on purpose, and B) continue to think its good because it "does a lot of things"
I'll start my argument by explaining my conception of why the card is run, just so we're all working from the same point of reference.
Typical person who plays Standstill viewpoint:
"Standstill is good because it's a two mana Blue spell that draws you three cards. Three cards for two mana and one card is a very good deal, even at Sorcery speed. Standstill also lets you exploit deck design because many people are afraid to break one, and you can use it to slow down the game while taking a lead with your manlands and wastelands and higher land count. Thus you get ahead on the board and on lands/mana and then when your opponent tries to recover you get big card advantage. Standstill also has many corner case uses, such as allowing you to force your opponent to draw cards in a long game where it comes down to decking."
All of the above is true, but it's not the real reason people play Standstill. The real reasons are:
A) Cheap source of large amounts of card draw
B) A way to freeze the game state in a manner advantageous to the Standstill player.
The problem with Standstill is that most people are convinced it does what the paragraph above says, without realizing they're wanting it to do A and B, and that Standstill frankly, sucks at accomplishing both A & B. This brings us back to the Willie Bloomquist disease issue. Because the card does multiple disparate things badly, people get confused and think that this diversity of effect makes it better. It doesn't.
Look at it this way: if someone is bad at hanging drywall, it doesn't make them more employable at a construction site because they're also bad at using a jackhammer. A guy who can't make coffee isn't more useful just because he also can't work the copier. Similarly, because Standstill is bad as a pure draw engine, it's not a better card because it's also bad at freezing the game state.
Now, these statements I've been making rest on the assumption that Standstill is bad at being a pure card draw card. So lets look at it that way. Cost: 1U. Speed: Sorcery. Draw: 3 cards. Net effect: +2. That's pretty efficient. However, those effects come with some stipulations. 1) Your opponent cannot have an Aether Vial out. 2) Your opponent cannot have a Top out unless you also have some form of card selection/advantage on the board. 3) Your opponent cannot have a planeswalker out. 4) Your opponent cannot have more Wastelands/Manlands than you. 5) Your opponent cannot have 1+ big creatures, 2+ small-medium creatures, or 1+ evasive creatures out.k 6) Your opponent cannot be playing combo. Those restrictions all basically boil down to: You can't play this card unless you're already ahead or at least not losing and facing a specific kind of deck. That makes a promising start into a pretty horrible card.
For comparison, lets look at some cards that are good at generating card advantage. Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Brainstorm every turn after an initial 4 mana investment, also a win condition that can completely lock down an advantageous or neutral board position by controlling the opponents' draws. Life from the Loam - provides the same amount of raw CA as Standstill for the same mana cost, requires lands in your graveyard. Crucible of Worlds - provides +1 land cards per turn, makes manlands immortal, provides infinite wastelands, requires lands in your graveyard or lands that go to the graveyard. Fact or Fiction - instant speed, digs five cards deep, lets you always get the card you want most. Thirst for Knowledge - instant speed, digs 3 cards deep, provides +1 cards if you also run artifacts. Intuition - Instant speed tutor for one card, or sets up graveyard based card advantage piles like Loam + 2 cycling lands. Brainstorm - instant speed, immediately digs three deep, permanent selection advantage with shuffle effect.
Those are all examples of what good, pure card advantage and draw engines look like. Some are graveyard conditional, some are not. Many work together synergysticly when combined. Some require a degree of "build around me" similar to Standstill, others do not. As far as pure draw engines go, I think it is safe to say that all of these cards are better as pure draw engines go than Standstill is.
Now lets look at cards that freeze the board state. Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top - prevents opponents from casting spells with CMC equal to whats on top of your library. Chalice of the Void Orim's Chant/Isochron Scepter - 2 card combo, prevents attacking and Sorcery speed spellcasting. Stasis - locks down everybody's everything, combined with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, also eliminates creatures. Winter Orb - see Stasis, but easier to abuse and a slightly softer lock on your opponents' lands. Moat - prevents non-flyers from attacking. Humility - makes all non-manland creatures small and puny. Erayo, Soratami Ascendant/Rule of Law - prevents your opponent from casting spells.
Those are all good examples of cards that lock down and freeze the game state. Most of theme are combos because locking down the game state is a big deal. Most people wish/like to pretend that Standstill really says "players can't cast spells". What it actually says is: you can't cast spells wtihout 4 for 1ing yourself, and your opponent can't cast spells without you gaining +2 CA. So Standstill is actually MORE restrictive on the person who casts it, because they're already down a card and mana from putting it on the table. In addition to needing to be already ahead when they do it.
Look, I know slots in control decks are tight, because in a metagame this diverse, you need to be able to answer a whole lot of questions, but Standstill is not the place to save on deck slots. You wouldn't play a bad draw spell like Inspiration, and you wouldn't play a bad lock piece like Lullmage Shepherd, so why play a card thats bad at both jobs?
Willie Bloomquist is making millions of dollars in MLB because managers and GMs think, hey, I can sign this guy and back up five positions! Sure he sucks, but five positions, that's some value. When really, the correct answer is to just construct/sign your bench guys in context with each other and make sure they have overlapping skill sets that cover each other and are, you know, each GOOD at at least one single thing. Instead, the guys are looked at individually and "he plays every position badly" becomes an attribute instead of a recommendation for firing.
Standstill has Willie Bloomquist disease. Just let the card go already, and play good stuff in it's place.
Analogy fail, analysis win.
I think your problem is you're a royals fan.
Cool story brah.
Sounds like someone has trouble beating Standstill.
I think Standstill is still a powerful draw engine in the right shell, but I agree that Standstill is a lackluster spell these days.
I don't agree that people ran Standstill to slow the game state down, at least not anymore. Maybe as a nice side bonus, but that's not why the card is put into decks.
The primary reason to play Standstill is because a 2 mana draw 3 is extremely powerful.
The problem with Standstill is that it only works while you're winning and doesn't help you draw cards when you're behind, when you need it most. Certain decks have alot of tools to make favorable scenarios for Standstill, like Merfolk. Between Aether Vial, manlands, and Wasteland, they are in a position to take the most advantage out of Standstill. Basically, Standstill will be castable for them much more frequently because even during a gamestate where they are behind, they can drop Standstill and get ahead.
As just a quick example of what I mean: Merfolk has an Aether Vial on the board and nothing else, against Zoo with just a Wild Nacatl on the board. Merfolk is behind because they have no creatures on the board and Zoo has a Wild Nacatl, but casting Standstill is the correct play.
As far as Standstill being put into control decks, I agree that the card just isn't very good anymore. I think this is one of the primary reasons for why Landstill fell from DTB and started to lose alot of interest for a while.
The biggest reason why I think Standstill has become less strong in Landstill is because of the increasing power level of the format. Cards like Decree of Justice, which were essential to making Standstill stronger, are no longer up to the power level of the format. New win conditions, like the Planeswalkers (primarily Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Jace, the Mind Sculptor) are not Standstill friendly because they must be played at sorcery speed.
I think Sensei's Divining Top should be in nearly ever control deck because it's the most powerful card in the game for any deck whose gameplan gets it to the lategame. A constant stream of exactly the cards you want to draw, in any game that lasts for longer than a few turns, wins games. That being said, I've found a very strong replacement draw engine to Standstill, and someone (Jazzykat) had even suggested starting a SCD on it.
Predict is the old card new tech that I've replaced Standstill with in my control decks. Sensei's Divining Top + Predict is such a powerful card advantage engine.
Predict is a 2 mana draw 2, so it produces 1 less CA than Standstill, but it is a virtual draw 3, similar to Brainstorm + fetchlands. Top + Predict will put the worst card of the top 3 into the graveyard, and then you get to draw the other 2. The next time you spin Top, you get to see 3 new cards. Top + Predict generates less raw card advantage than Standstill, but it generates better card quality, and it is castable even when you're behind (and need to draw into an answer). It's ability to be played at instant speed allows the control deck to stay untapped incase it needs to cast spells like Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, or spin Top to maintain a Counterbalance lock. It costs half as much mana as Fact or Fiction, which is especially important for those who decide to use Counterbalance (2cc).
Even without a Top in play, the deck should have sufficient means of making Predict a 2 mana draw 2, 2 mana virtual draw 3. With Brainstorm, Top, and possibly Counterbalance, Jace, and/or Ponder, their are more than enough cards to enable Predict. Before Mystical Tutor was banned, Predict was also a beautiful disruption spell in addition to card draw. Enlightened Tutor still sees a little bit of play, but obviously that aspect of Predict is not a primary reason to play it.
Landstill was, and to some it still is, widely considered as the premier control deck of Legacy. I wholeheartedly believe that the evolution of control (Landstill and other blue based cousins) will adapt to using Planeswalker's as win conditions and Sensei's Divining Top and Predict as their new draw engine. Whether Counterbalance should be maindecked or sideboarded, if ran in the 75 at all, has been a widely debated topic on the Landstill thread for years. I personally think it most certainly should be maindecked, but that's not the point of this topic right now.
I'll present a sample decklist that utilizes all of the ideas I've been talking about:
U/W/b Planeswalker Counterbalance Control
Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Doom Blade
2 Vindicate
Sideboard (15)
4 Innocent Blood
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Meddling Mage
4 Relic of Progenitus
Just for the record, in the list posted above, I'm unsure if the Mishra's Factories still deserve to be in the deck or not. They can help protect Planeswalker's by blocking, but they are weak on defense and open myself up to an opponent's (instant speed) removal. I have not felt the need for the additional clock against combo because of CounterTop. Being nonbasic makes the manabase more vulnerable to spells like Back to Basics. The deck has alot of colorless mana costs in its spells, so it's not hurting the deck to be in here, but their inclusion is still highly questionable without Standstill.
Last edited by Hanni; 07-04-2010 at 04:33 PM.
Cook: Die. Royals in 2012 ftw.
RoMTG: "I have nothing useful or intelligent to say, so I'll just insult the author in the hopes that that makes his arguments invalid"
Hanni: I don't know if you're right about Predict/Top or not, and I have no idea if standstill lists will eventually shake out specifically like that, but otherwise ya, 100% agree.
Hanni, the only issue that I've found is that manlands simply aren't good enough anymore. it used to be that a factory could trade for most creatures at worst, but now it's basically just a chump blocker. I started with a U/W Landstill listing, and after a little playtesting, cut 2 Standstills. Did some more testing and cut manlands for basics and B2B, which is strong against most of the field, especially problem decks like New Horizons. I add Thopter Foundry as an alt wincon to Jace 2.0. Then I cut the last 2 Standstills. Every improvement I made took the deck further from Landstill. I just think that like Morgan said, the cards that Landstill functioned around do not hold up in Legacy anymore and I don't think they every will again. Much like Savannah Lions or Jackal Pup, they're just not good enough to ever see play again, there are just better cards to run and they're too slow.
Originally Posted by Draener
The reason I don't know whether to cut them or not is because, at the end of the day, they are still a land. I still need to run 23 lands, with or without Mishra's Factory. I have alot of spells with colorless requirements, like the Planeswalker's, so the colorless that Mishra's Factory taps for isn't a setback.Just for the record, in the list posted above, I'm unsure if the Mishra's Factories still deserve to be in the deck or not.
If I cut Mishra's Factories, I can either add a 4th color, or strengthen the current color splash. I'm not sure that either of those options are necessary, though.
That's why I haven't cut them yet. That doesn't mean that I haven't already realized that they are the weakest card in the deck. What would you suggest as a replacement?
The one thing your analysis doesn't cover (or if I missed it, do point it out) is that although you have stated that Standstill is poor at drawing and freezing the game state, the alternatives you have mentioned only cover one of each of these dimensions specifically, and are tough to mesh together. Some of these alternatives rarely see play and/or are fundamentally bad against the metagame. I don't consider myself a genius of the format or claim to know everything, but looking at these alternatives you have posed, some comments.
I am adding my thoughts based on playing Landstill.
Pure draw engine:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Some Landstill builds already use this. While he is a source of card advantage, he is a 4cc card that needs to played at Sorcery speed. I like him as a control element, not so much a draw element (if those two things can be distinguished).
Life from the Loam - You of all people should know the commitment it takes to have a strong LftL engine in your deck. Cycling Lands, recursion cards like Ruins/Stronghold, etc. Not applicable for all decks, although stong.
Crucible of Worlds - Already run in some builds of Landstill. While Wastelock is cute and sounds great, if you're that far ahead, chances are you don't actually need it.
Fact or Fiction - Run alongside Standstill in Landstill builds as an alternative source of card advantage. Where Standstill isn't as great, this fills in the holes. Still must be careful because of the cost.
Thirst for Knowledge - I can't see a deck outside of MUD taking consistent advantage of this.
Intuition - More GY based, without recursion or that type of element it really isn't worth playing.
Brainstorm - 3/4-of already in Landstill. Not a draw engine, broken as a potential draw 3 but not all the time.
How many of these cards are able to freeze the game state? Honestly, probably only Jace, Crucible of Worlds, and a sensible LftL lock. The latter two are still difficult to maintain against GY hate based strategies or even just your good old choice of running more basics.
Freezing game state:
CB/Top - Sounds great on paper but everyone here knows that Counterbalance is not a soft lock nor can it last indefinitely on the battlefield. I prefer not to open myself up to Krosan Grip, which deals with Counterbalance but can't hit Standstill.
Scepter Chant - Scepter Chant is great, but again, Krosan Grip or any type of instant speed removal just got you 2-for-1'ed.
Tabernacle/Stasis/Winter Orb - Who plays this?
Moat/Humility - Are tools that Landstill builds have used, vulnerable to removal but doesn't exactly freeze the game state. For example you can still die to a bunch of 1/1's post-Humility. Moat is dependent on board position.
Erayo - Who plays this?
Rule of Law - Seems okay but tricky to play with as it affects all players, if you're playing against say a deck with countermagic you're going to have problems resolving some of your own spells. I see it as a somewhat narrow card for combo, like Canonist, of course.
How many of these cards are able to generate pure card advantage? None, to be honest. Virtual card advantage sure, but that's not the argument.
So at a glance, you have stated that Standstill is an awful card because it fails at the two things it is supposed to do, but when you really look at the alternatives, you see that there are very little replacements for it outside of a major overhaul on some of the decks that use it. Merfolk, for example uses Standstill as a draw engine and can't play way more than half the stuff on your list. Control decks are more flexible but once again adding something like a Loam engine in a UWx Landstill deck, you might as well just play something else. I don't know, have my 2 cents.
And fuck the Royals, I thought your man Zach Greinke was good. Dude has costed me so many Fantasy games this year. Sigh
EDIT:
This is probably going to turn into a Landstill discussion, but there should be very rare situations in which you feel that you are inclined to chump block with a Factory on board. Landstill is incredibly redundant and you should have answers to creature based strategies pretty well. For me, I think Standstill is incredibly strong with Manlands, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice, which the latter is missing from a lot of builds lately. I have been doing okay, not phenomenal with Landstill recently but I will be there at the GP piloting my build.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Morbid,
Sorry if I wasn't clear, my point wasn't that there are better options to both freeze the game state and draw cards, my point was that you shouldn't be trying to do BOTH of those things with one card at the same time. That instead you should run separate cards that do one thing well. Rather than one card that does both things badly.
And yeah, some of the stuff I listed isn't top tier in playability, they were just the locks I could think of off the top of my head. Many of the better cards that are run alongside Standstill in Landstill builds should simply see their numbers increase at the expense of having any Standstills in the deck at all.
Blame Yuni Betancourt for Zack's problems this year. Just at games I've been to personally Yuni's "defense" has cost Zack seven runs. Bloomie's responsible for a couple too.
Fair enough. I have a belief that if the right plays are made, however, Standstill can do both of these things in a strong manner. Granted it has taken me a while to finally adjust and understand matchups and the format better, but setting yourself up to play a gamebreaking Standstill for 1U is still pretty effective. Its interaction with cards that can operate under it are still the backbone, of course. Without those, Standstill is pretty awful I will admit.
So I should break Betancourt's kneecaps. Sigh. If only I didn't trade away Greinke for a case of Coors Light (not even joking).
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
Mike, If your landstill deck is having problems with new horizons than you're doing it wrong. It should be a very positive matchup.
This is a totally worthless post. Verbal warning for spam. - Bardo
They don't need to protect a threat for long to do some serious damage. I haven't played a lot of games against it but the ones I did I had some issues with not being able to find enough Plows.
I think that the manlands and Standstill are both outdated. While the fundamental theme should be strong (you don't have to open slots for a win con because your lands are your wincon, leaving more room for control elements) in practice I've found thopter/sword to be stronger for me. Sticking with the straight U/W nerfs EE, but the tutors let me grab Humility/Moat/Back to Basics or whatever other hoser will most effectively shut out my opponent. I'm a big fan of B2B although you could probably do UWR with Blood Moon. Moon is stroger since it shuts down fetches but it's also harder on your mana base but you could still run EE then and you get Firespout.
To be honest, after testing a bit with thopter, I decided to switch shells from straight conrol to aggro control with CB, so I can't really say what is best in the wake of cutting Factories. I like thopter and utility artifacts and enchantments, but I don't have a lot of testing to back it up.
This may be something that you need to bring up at home base, although this thread is pretty good for that, since it has turned into a question of "Is Landstill viable as an archetype?" instead of "Is Standstill viable as a card?"
I really have problems believing that manalands and Standstill are outdated, probably the manlands by themselves as they are not good at fightning 4/5 Goyfs, but you shouldn't be doing that anyways (unless you are ensuring survival), but unless you've forgotten the ridiculous amount of removal that Landstill runs, then you shouldn't be running into this problem. For example against your New Horizons matchup, I played the deck for a little bit to get a feel for it, and it operates similarly to most Tempo Builds. From the other side, you not only have access to StP/PtE, Wrath effects, EE, and Vindicate if you run it, I have a problem believing that you cannot deal with their 11 total threats g1, 8 of which are cold in the wake of a Decree of Justice (unless they have a preeminent EE @ 0). I hold back Brainstorms, play around Daze, and try to keep hands with a good amount of lands. Eternal Dragon does a lot of good here as well. Post-board, the one threat I've found lately is the Worm Harvest/Life from the Loam shenanigans, but if you have access to effective GY hate you should be okay. Especially with 7 StP effects post-board. I'm not saying you can't lose, but if you manage to resolve card advantage against them, they have no pure card advantage outside of an active Knight of the Reliquary (or Crucible), and those can be answered.
About the Thopter Foundry, perhaps this is why I'm really against running more than 3 artifacts (6 if you count active manlands) in my library, and I use those immediately while maintaining priority. I want my opponent to board in their Krosan Grips, to keep in their Pridemages (okay, the card is good anyways, but if we assume attacking is miserable...). I've won games where people have revealed to me after the match 3 Krosan Grips in their hand and nothing else, all stuff they were sandbagging in hopes of my playing something relevant. I would rather have that than to play an artifact based combo. I like the concept, but starting with the problem that it cannot be cast under a Standstill but rather must be on the battlefield beforehand, it doesn't necessarily fit the fundamentals of Landstill very well.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
I'm pretty sure the only real reason a good player would play Standstill is because it draws 3 cards for 2 mana. And for that effect, it is quite good and there is no other legal card that can do that for so cheap.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
turn 1 vial and then turn 2 mutavault standstill is one of the most broken plays in Legacy. A lot of cards are only good in certain situations and standstill is just another one.
Yeah. But the problem with Standstill in 2010 is it'll only be a draw 3 for 2 mana when you're winning. To be honest I agree with with the consensus that Landstill is outdated, Thopters and Jace are both considerable faster and stronger routes to victory and both have the benefit of being able to turn the tide in a losing situation.
Given the much faster and stronger metagame of today, I feel like something as simple as Impulse would be better. It's better at setting up your play, finding answers as fast as possible and if you're winning Standstill is just overkill.
I understand what you mean. But if your deck already has Jace (and maybe Thopters), is there a better draw engine to supplement it than Standstill?
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I'd personally say the Predict route Hanni is exploring looks alot better, granted it did lose some pondus with the banning of Mystical Tutor, or if the deck can support it Thirst of Knowledge is also a possibility. A completely other consideration, could be to just rely on the raw power of Jace/Thopter and use cantrips to "accelerate" into a position where either the combo or the planewalker will seal the game, rather than the traditional school of control through card advantage.
If only WotC would print an instant U1: Draw 2... ;)
For control decks, generating card advantage, whether raw or virtual, is the ultimate goal. It doesn't matter if that means drawing actual cards or not. CounterTop generates a large amount of raw card advantage without actually drawing any cards, for example.I understand what you mean. But if your deck already has Jace (and maybe Thopters), is there a better draw engine to supplement it than Standstill?
The Thopter decks generate virtual card advantage with Moat, raw card advantage with CounterTop, and ultimately land a combo that puts them too far ahead in life points and 1/1 flyers.
However, I strongly believe that Top should in just about every single control deck, even nonblue control decks without Counterbalance. The cards that damn good. If you're running Top, Predict is a much better draw engine than Standstill, because you can cast it when you're not winning, and although it's only a draw 2 for 2 instead of a draw 3, it is a virtual draw 3.
They have, it's called Predict. Which is actually better than a straight draw 2, because it has the ability to become a virtual draw 3.If only WotC would print an instant U1: Draw 2... ;)
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