[Deck] Bryn Argoll Thresh

[Nihil Credo]

For reference, the combo:

You play Chain of Plasma targeting your Swans of Bryn Argoll. Since you control the damage source (Chain of Plasma) you draw three cards; then, you can choose to discard a card and copy the spell, targeting Swans again. Repeat this process as many times as you want, drawing up to your whole deck.

At this point, you can kill your opponent with either Lightning Storm (you'll have drawn all your lands, so you're basically guaranteed to win the hijack fight) or Conflagrate, which you can discard to a Chain of Plasma.



Now, my approach to the deck (C&P from the other thread):

I fail to see why people are going for a straight-up single-plan combo deck with this thing. In this regard, it's no better than Mizzium/Vault, which is immune to StP and more easily tutorable/recurrable, not to mention infinite turns >>>> infinite cards since you don't need to cram free mana sources in the deck to fuel your win condition.

The beauty of Swan/Chain is that neither piece is dead on its own. Chain is a decent burn spell: you creatures are all immune to a single Bolt, so if you're going to get it chucked back at you it's by aggro decks who head for the dome, and Goblins won't even do that since they probably don't want to give you an improved Snuff Out (plus you're Red Thresh so you should pummel Goblins anyway, at least postboard). Swan is a very efficient evasive creature that turns your other burn spells (if you choose to run them) into Ancestral Recalls. Even the win condition can be a sometime-useful burn spell (Lightning Storm more so than Conflagrate), making this a very rare 2/6/0 combo.

So, what about we just take an UGR Counterbalance Thresh list, and fit the combo into it? Let's not even waste space for free mana: you're going to drop Swans on turn 4 at the earliest, so it's highly likely you'll have three open mana for Lightning Storm when you play the Chains. Since Swans is also an unkillable blocker, although with a drawback, waiting a turn is unlikely to cost you against aggro decks. Against control decks, where you need to plan for sweepers, the other plan (I wouldn't call it just a plan B) of "Red Thresh with 8 Bolts" is probably better; you can also just play the combo on your sixth land drop and pass the turn while holding enough Bolts to burn off your opponent.

Of course, none of the above are absolute statements, but I'd still say that the times where waiting a turn before the combo costs you the game will be rare enough to not warrant running shit like Lotus Petals.


Decklist (now includes lands and SB):

3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain of Plasma

3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Lightning Storm

SB:
1 Conflagrate (may not be needed)
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm


Finally, I also did a couple of MWS test games this afternoon. One was a random; the other was an UW Landstill list which killed or countered every single one of my threats as I played them.

At one point he tapped out for a Wrath and a Standstill, still at 16 life. I had the combo in hand and six lands, and played Swans; he drew no Force, and it resolved. I then Chained it and drew a bunch of cards then passed, keeping the following 7: FoW, FoW, FoW, Swans, Daze, Ponder, Chains. The next turn he tried to kill the Swans, but I won the counter-fight. After that I untapped, dealt him 4 with the Swans, played Chains again and drew my deck, killing him with a Lightning Storm and a Bolt.

I feel this game was relevant because it showed what the deck can do: it can lose every one of its threat (the classical bane of Thresh) and then reverse it all with a quick combo-out. The double-combo which I tried was also interesting, possibly becoming a staple way to work around the lack of instant-speed mana.

[Maveric78f]

I don't think that it can be better than the regular Ugr thresh. And the red splash is already the worst thresh splash right now to my opinion.

[Nihil Credo]

Not quite. Swans of Bryn Argoll's ability is a replacemente effect, so it happens straight during Chain of Plasma's resolution - in place of the 'deal 3 damage' part.

Likewise, Chain of Plasma's self-copying ability is not a trigger, it also takes place during resolution. So when the original Chain finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard, there will be a Chain copy on the stack (and only that), and so on.

[Elfrago]

Do you really need to play 4 Swans of Bryn Argoll? Honestly, I'd try only 2 of them in the Sea Drake/Red Dragon slot.

[Nihil Credo]

Personally, I'm betting that either 3 or 4 will end up being the right number, since they're much easier on the curve than Sea Drake, and unlike Fledgling Dragon they can be played early, don't require a splash colour, and pitch to FoW.

Since testing has just begun, I would keep the full playset in. If four copies are too clunky, this will show up fairly soon.

[Drac]

I really like this list, i just see 1 thing that might be a problem

Lets say you have 4 Lands and drop the Chick
Then if you play conflagrate you wouldnt need a 5th landdrop but thats beside the point atm. you would need 3 Red mana to both pay the CoP and your kill condition. doesnt this screw you abit?

Edit: i know this is a "useless" card but would the adittion of a singleton Chrome mox/SSG be a way to solve this problem

[Nihil Credo]

Uh, if I understand your scenario correctly, here's what you do if you want to combo off ASAP: turn 4 drop Swans, untap, play Chain of Plasma, draw your deck, play your fifth land from the 30 cards you have drawn, play Lightning Storm pitching as many lands as needed and safe, gg.

Also, to be exact: before playing Chain of Plasma, swing for 4. Also, remember to aim your final Chain of Plasma at the opponent's head unless he's got mana open and several more counterspells than you (if he doesn't, you're fine trading Bolts for Ancestral Recall; but if he does, he might draw enough countermagic to win the fight over Lightning Storm).

[Elfrago]

Also, remember to aim your final Chain of Plasma at the opponent's head unless he's got mana open and several more counterspells than you (if he doesn't, you're fine trading Bolts for Ancestral Recall; but if he does, he might draw enough countermagic to win the fight over Lightning Storm).

Why do that? While 3 more damage is nice, is it worth giving your opponent a free ancestral? You can simply stop copying the chain.

[koba]

Well, if your opponent has no mana open and you can combo out in the very same turn, there's little harm done by letting him draw three cards.

I had some success with "regular" threshold builds over where I live, but I think adding swans makes it just stronger. It's a great idea. Let us know how your testing goes.

How often do you win with the combo and how often just by attacking with creatures and burn?

[m03]

Well, if your opponent has no mana open and you can combo out in the very same turn, there's little harm done by letting him draw three cards.

Unless he's playing blue. FoW and Daze would both be very bad things to have them draw.

[Nihil Credo]

Hence the 'only if he runs more countermagic than you and has mana'. If he's just got FoW and Daze, I am going to beat that since I have already drawn the full set of mine.

Now that I think about it, another deck where you may not want to do this is 43 Lands, as they could conceivably draw enough land cards to win the Lightning Storm fight. But then, against 43 Lands, I suppose you can just Bolt them to death (and postboard own them with Blood Moon).


Got a couple of games under my belt right now; just MWS randoms, though, which I beat with usual beats&burn, so I learnt nothing, really. No mana issues, though.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Unless he's playing blue. FoW and Daze would both be very bad things to have them draw.

I've been playtesting against myself (so that I can figure out the best way to beat it!), and with a limited number of counterspells in your hand, what you REALLY want to counter is the Swan. Countering the Chain only delays the inevitable, and countering Conflagrate is impossible (due to the number of counters which the Swan player has drawn).


It would be pretty funny, however, if someone cast Sudden Spoiling in response to Swan becoming the target of a Chain. On the other hand, Sudden Death achieves the same, and you won't risk having the Chain countered.

[koba]

Speaking of 43-lands: imo this is one of the match-ups that is greatly improved by adding the combo. It used to be nigh-impossible to break through their maze of iths, recurring factories, tabernacles and so on (without blood moon anyway). Now you can just lay back (well, sort of) and play defensively until you have assembled the combo. Enchantress will probably not like the swan for similar reasons...

[Maveric78f]

Reaching 4 manas is an issue though.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Reaching 4 manas is an issue though.

Five, really, against 43lands, since Tabernacle will eat a Swan mana--unless you want to fo off at the beginning of your upkeep, I guess. If 43lands is really an issue, more basics will probably solve much of the problem: fetch out basics, keep a non-basic in hand to use as your fourth (or fifth) mana. Or just keep uncracked fetches in play, I suppose, but plan A usually works better.

This is a monster of a Thresh deck. The more I goldfish and test it, the more worried I get.

[Hanni]

Drac

Lets say you have 4 Lands and drop the Chick
Then if you play conflagrate you wouldnt need a 5th landdrop but thats beside the point atm. you would need 3 Red mana to both pay the CoP and your kill condition. doesnt this screw you abit?

Nihil

Uh, if I understand your scenario correctly, here's what you do if you want to combo off ASAP: turn 4 drop Swans, untap, play Chain of Plasma, draw your deck, play your fifth land from the 30 cards you have drawn, play Lightning Storm pitching as many lands as needed and safe, gg.

I think you misunderstood him. He did question the fact that you need 5 lands, but that wasn't his biggest concern. His biggest concern was more a question of red mana sources. If you plan on playing CoP and either Lightning Storm or Conflagrate, you need 3 red sources. Considering that you run 4 Volcanic Islands as your red sources, I'd say that his questioning is pretty valid.

The one thing I'm seeing here that can help with this is that you can actually break up the timing between CoP and Lightning Storm/Conflagrate. What I mean is, you can cast CoP on the opponent's turn, drawing all but 1 card of your deck, to give you an untap step before going off. The only problem with this is that it gives the opponent an additional turn before actually going off. You still need 2 red mana sources, too... now, this shouldn't be a problem since you should have hit a second red source of mana when drawing your deck. However... the lack of basic Mountain in this deck does sadden me a little, especially since you're running Wooded Foothills.

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

That's the manabase I'd run, I think.

[Mental]

This deck looks very strong (I have no idea if it will be stronger than UGR Moontresh though). I like what you've got going, Nihil, the transformational SB is very cool. Thresh definitely seems like the right deck to run this combo in.

@Hanni - We don't need a basic mountain, under Blood Moon all the nonbasics are mountains. I'd rather up the Volcanic count to 4, cut a Foothill and up the trop count to 4. 8 Duals, 7 Fetches, and 2 Basics seems about right in a deck like this.

So which version is better, a Thrash Shell or a Moon Shell? I guess I'd stick with moon for now.

EDIT: Is there a way I can Download Shadowmoor onto MWS? There was for Morningtide.

EDIT 2: Jesus christ this thing is broke. I was just playing MUC/g on MWS. G1 Goose + Bolt goes all the way (I have the nuts). Game 2 he gets Counterbalance down, and I keep baiting with Top and Cantrips. Eventually I drop Swans and combo out. Wow. Time to proxy that up.

[Nihil Credo]

I think you misunderstood him. He did question the fact that you need 5 lands, but that wasn't his biggest concern. His biggest concern was more a question of red mana sources. If you plan on playing CoP and either Lightning Storm or Conflagrate, you need 3 red sources. Considering that you run 4 Volcanic Islands as your red sources, I'd say that his questioning is pretty valid.

Ah, now I see what he was talking about. But again, the combo only needs to draw two of the 11 red sources; the third one will be drawn during the combo. If you count the split-combo process you described later, you only need two.

And for that matter, hell, you only really need one for the Chain of Plasma. I've said it quite a few times, but it's worth repeating: Lightning Storm/Conflagrate may very well be just cute and unnecessary. Drawing as many cards as wanted is probably enough of a win condition in the first place.

However... the lack of basic Mountain in this deck does sadden me a little, especially since you're running Wooded Foothills.

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

That's the manabase I'd run, I think.

I don't like this one much. Mental is right, here: you don't need the basic Mountain since postboard Blood Moon gives you red mana a-plenty. The second Island is also important since against Landstill, definitely a tough matchup, you want access to both Counterbalance and Blood Moon.
The only reason for it would be fear of Wasteland-lock, which doesn't matter much since you only really need to cast Chain of Plasma once; or fear of Extirpate, which is better solved by Steam Vents.

Also, I don't like two nonblue lands in a 17-land manabase. If you want to run those, I think you should either go up to 18 or abandon the postboard Blood Moon plan.

@Mental: The Shadowmoor patch will only be available when the spoiler is complete. Until then, you can create your own card by switching the Master Base to Edit mode, making a copy of another card, and editing its record to turn it into Swans. After that, save the Master Base and restart MWS.

[GiantGrowth]

And for that matter, hell, you only really need one for the Chain of Plasma. I've said it quite a few times, but it's worth repeating: Lightning Storm/Conflagrate may very well be just cute and unnecessary. Drawing as many cards as wanted is probably enough of a win condition in the first place.

don't know if that last statement was just for emphasis or not, but if it wasn't.
1 of spellbook?

[koba]

I don’t think spellbook is the way to go here, just like I agree with the statement that lightning storm/conflagrate is not strictly necessary. This deck reminds me of breakfast. You have a solid combo plan, and if that does not work out, you have a back-up-plan: beating with goyfs.

This deck is similar. The aggro-control component in itself is pretty good, and you should win a lot of games by attacking and burning your opponent out or by using the counterbalance/top-lock. If that fails (or complementing that strategy), there is always the combo back-up plan. I would not use too many cards that are not at least decent in “regular” threshold-decks. Therefore, I would rather not play with moxen, petals, spellbook, etc…