I really like the deck aswell together with all the synergie. Scryb sprite is awesome in activating land tutors and reusing mother of runes. I would not dismiss it that fast. Also it has evasion to carry the equipments.
I would certainly try to fit in at least a couple of goyfs.
Perhaps you are right and I should test them some more. On the other hand, what do they actually do for you, they help in a situation where you are already in good shape, namely when you equipment going or land finders active. It's a pretty horrible topdeck in a war of attrition..Originally Posted by Waikiki
Why would you fit in Goyfs? I understand that Tarmogoyf is a powerful card but I can't really see why it would be so awesome here. The decks where Goyf is amazing are the deck that try to stall the opponent and then finish him off quickly. This isn't that sort of deck, this deck tries to bury the opponent under a sea of card advantage and then finish him off when it has estabalished control over the board. I don't think Goyf would be a horrible choice, but it doesn't really seems to suit the deck. It's quite the opposite of the Ranger come to think of it, where Goyf is very powerful but has little synergy with the deck, Ranger is weak but with amazing synergy.
Team R&D
You are right about goyf. It isn't needed.
How does this deck fight the sweepers as in deed? make sure they aren't able to cast it attacking the manabase?
You have Qasali Pridemage, so you can try to prevent them from getting 5 or 6 mana. The other way is to not overextend too much, Stoneforge Mystic can help you a lot here as it + an equipment is a pretty large threat.
Team R&D
yep
pernicious deed is awesome :(.
against deed in rock-like deck, I try to attack the manabase as more as possible, then it would be hard to play it and sak it on the same turn to prevent from a qasali.
in JAce/deed deck, MD I think this is unwinable.
I had exatly the same advices about feary and goyf at first. I try to include goyf, it's often a dead card, I mean it doesn't give something intereseting on the game,all the other creatures can do some tricks, and KotR and equipement are enough to kill.
I didnt play faeri on my first test, when I added It I realised all the tricks it allows you to do!!!!!
X2 mother effect,then against Zoo this is awesome like this:
him: attaking with Goyf/nacalt
me:block with random cret' If I can or with mother If I must
before damage green protec to my blocker
him: resp bolt/path to mother
me: resp activate vial at 2 or tap 2 mana, faerie, untap mother, and you loose a card men ^^^
untap equiped(and protected) blocker in flash is cool
untap the KotR in flash after attacking with^^, then block one steak,the before dmg go find maze of ith, this must upset opponent strategy.
I didn't play the deck for long time of course, but I don't miss library, really not,can't pay life against aggro,and have a Huge SB against control.
then I can't play without maze^^
side event of french standard this sunday
100 players.
2/0 against zoo (had my revenge^^)
2/1 against Landstill,with winning an impossible game against elspeth+humility(thx equip)
1/2 against eva green I was really raped twice..... my opponent recognized it, I had twice a huge mana denial plan,then he drawn so many fetchs
2/1 against merfolk
0/2 against a mate playing sneak-show-emrakul-prog
1/0 against excalibur
1/2 against dream halls.
what a bad day! 4/3 after a full day on good tables; show and tell.deck seems so hard ,mana cost of 3 (gaddok......), doesnt need a lot of mana (choke sux) and keep the priority to killwith sneak attack,or hive mind. (krosan sux....)
dream halls is a less harder because krosan could be good, one mate looses the last round with the same deck at the next table against hive mind ^^ :P
looking for solution........
Nice deck!
I've noticed that Mangara of Corondor has a lot of synergy with so many cards in the deck.
He helps you to attack opponent's manabase, wich looks very nice against control decks like Landstill and Rock, and he hits planeswalkers.
Also, I couldn't decide where to put utility lands, main or side. The solution comes in form of Living Wish. It helps to establish Mangara+Karakas lock and finds you the hate piece against certain strategies. And with 8 early accelerators it doesn't look slow. Here's my list:
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Living Wish
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SIDEBOARD
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
5 free slots
What do you think about it?
Oh, and Scryb Ranger >>> Merfolks wich adds more awesomeness to the card.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Mangara does add an additional element of disruption to complement Wasteland. Consider this deck from Marsh Usary that won a GP Columbus Grinder:
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mangara of Condor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
There are a few things with the list I disagree with, namely the use of both Canonist and Teeg when it's questionable if either should be included in the maindeck, as well as the exclusion of the Stoneforge Mystic engine. But it's hard to deny the power of recursive Mangara activations. If you use both Wayferer and KotR, it's easy to find a Karakas, meaning Flickerwisp isn't an essential inclusion.
Though all my experience with his archetype comes from playing with GW Survival I think I have a good idea of what works in this kind of deck and what not, regarding the above list.
- Gaddock is a great card in the maindeck, though in GW Survival I just can't fit him in, except for sometimes 1 as a tutor target. But he protects you from a lot of cards in the metagame that you have no answer to: Natural Order, Dread Return and Tendrils of Agony are the big three but with Force of Will, Engineered Explosives, Jace TMS, Replenish, Humility (big, but not frequently played), Wrath of God, Aluren, Dream Halls and more there are a ton of cards against which Teeg gets value, especially when combined with MoR.
- Canonist on the other hand is pretty much useless except for the Combo matchup, Vengevines and stalling a bit against other decks, bit he doesn't really stop anything except Combo. So I would ban the 4 Canonists to the Sideboard.
- I am of the opinion that the archeytype gets better with Tarmogoyf. Cutting him so that every creature has an ability is cute, but being fat for little Mana already IS an ability. Vanilla or not, he does so much in terms of Tempo by being 3/4 or 4/5 for just 2 Mana that he feels irreplacable against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo (and in some games vs. Dredge). It is huge to have a creature that they can't attack into without trading bad and you don't always Mother of Runes online. In these very important matchups Goyf buys you the time to some kind of engine going and in all other matchups he is still solid.
- I like the Mangara of Corondor idea. You can't squeeze it into a Survival shell (I tried) but in this deck he seems perfect. It gives you a slow Vindicate to complement the LD theme, handles at least some problem card effectively and gives a nice late game engine with Karakas.
- 1 Horizon Canopy is not enough. Period. Imo 3 is the right number, with 4 I've had problems witht he life loss a few times too often now, but with 3 Canopies Lifeloss problems get rare enough.
Last edited by Tao; 08-28-2010 at 04:31 AM.
Well said about Tarmogoyf Tao as it is an absolute must for this particular deck. When I say a must, I mean in a full play set of four (4) not three (3); no exceptions for this deck gentlemen!
I read an article from Christopher Walton, a very good legacy player and well established deck innovator in the legacy format in which he states if you are playing aggro and have any green mana and are not playing Goyf, you are not playing the right deck. I couldn't agree more. An arrgo deck that is playing green in its colour base must play Goyf and that is not a matter of opinion, it is a solidified fact.
If you’re using creatures in a deck that produces green mana – why aren’t you playing Tarmogoyf?
If you’re not using creatures – How does your deck handle Tarmogoyf?
For competitive purposes, there are few creature decks that can get away with not playing Tarmogoyf, these decks are Goblins, Merfolk and Elves.
Of the aggro and aggro-control decks that were not just aforementioned, only three did not play Tarmogoyf. Those decks were Faeries, Affinity and U/G Madness. Any of these kinds of decks that are not using Tarmgoyf needs a very good reason for passing it up and needs to have a reasonable plan to work around opposing Tarmogoyfs. I’m not persuaded that the three foregoing decks listed above should not have been playing Tarmogoyf, but that is their call. In the context of this deck, and after extensive play testing with and without Goyf, I am convinced that this deck is weaker without Goyf.
I agree with you again Tao that 4x Canopy is way too much for this deck as well. Before deckcheck was shut down, the more recent top 8 Maverick decks in 40+ player events were only running 2-3 (max) for the reasons as set out above by Tao.
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I agree on the goyf issue. I almost agree on the horizon canopy issue. As far as Im concerned I never wanted more than one just because of my metagame having a lot of zoo and fast aggro. THe 1-3 damage it will deal you early one would be a big problem. I guess if your meta is a little slower its a fine choice to have 2-3.
The issue I found on this deck even when I put some goyfs in it, is that it was kind of slow, it usually failed to beat zoo hence I dropped it for a while. I'll see if I can test this again and maybe play with it once in a while since I love scryb rangers interaction with a lot of the creatures
This is what I'm going to start messing with. I'm not sure if it needs the Nobles and the Vials, but 8 Exalted guys is pretty hot and Vials are great with creature heavy decks, especially Serra Avengers.
Land 21
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Creatures 27
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Other Spells 12
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard 15
4 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
3 Natural Order
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Back to Nature
1 Progenitus
For the SB, I'm trying to decide between the NO package and 4 Mindbreak Traps.
Problems I foresee are that the deck isn't faster than some of the other aggro decks and it lacks serious CA or card quality engines outside of Mystics and Canopies. A boardwipe like Deed or Perish would hurt, but then again, the deck doesn't require you to over-extend as much as Merfolk and Goblins. A single KotR/Goyf or pretty much anything with an equipment is enough of a threat by itself. Something I'd like to fit into either the MD or the SB would be 1-2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She is downright amazing and highly underplayed in my opinion.
I think if it came down to a card filter, I'd go with Top. Any deck with Vials will have extra mana laying around and I think the best place for Sylvan Library to really shine is in a deck packing burn.
You would be much better off just incorporating Vengavines and some madness outlets.
Calls for banning are almost always the scrubs way out. Real men view a challenge as something to overcome, a puzzle to solve, an opportunity to be had, and the source of evolution.
Bump for justice! Been playing this a lot online and testing with some of the other legacy dudes at the local shop. I am continually amazed by just how little power this deck actually lost with the banning of Survival. Vengevine has proven over and over again that he is a boss when you just hardcast him.
Some thoughts - Combo matchup is surprisingly not terrible. Some number of Null Rod/Mindbreak Trap/hatebears are necessary from the SB, but that's very easily doable, since most things that need to be handled are taken care of easily by the main deck.
The one truly bad matchup that I have encountered so far seems to be Show and Tell. If they turn 1 or 2 a Progenitus there's not a whole lot to be done except hope you can race with Knight of the Reliquary and a well-timed Jitte/SoLaS. Emrakul is taken care of with Karakas, handily searched up by said Knight, but Proggy... not much you can do about that.
Here's the list I've been using:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vengevine
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
1 n land (could be Maze of Ith, another Horizon Canopy, or even Bayou if you want to splash for SB Extirpate)
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
SIDEBOARD
meta dependent
Sylvan Library has been pretty good so far. Sometimes I still feel like it might be better off as something else, though, and admittedly I side it out against a lot of decks. It has been invaluable against blue, though, so I guess that warrants at least a semi-permanent slot in the MD.
I haven't playtested this, but a 4/3 haster for 2GG--even with some regenerating ability--seems very underwhelming without a way to cheat him in.
Wait, since when is this thread survival-less WG survival?
Since they are the same goddamn deck? WG Survival was pretty much just Maverick + Survival shenanigans.
I thought so at first, too, but I kept getting raped by Firespout with all those Rootwallas and Wild Mongrels, so I cut them for better creatures, and I have been extremely happy with the results. It gives control decks fits, makes Firespout less effective, makes tapping out to attack less profitable for your opponent, and is just generally a boss in every single way. With 23 lands, I never have a hard time casting the thing, and it just wins against Jace decks, which had been problematic in prior testing.
I think what makes it so great is the fact that it's big enough to warrant answering, but if that answer isn't an exile effect you essentially just made them discard a card. And if that answer is an exile effect, then that's one less answer to Goyf of Knight of the Reliquary that you have to worry about.
I am firmly of the opinion that if you are playing an aggressive green deck with more than 20 lands, you should seriously consider Vengevine.
I've been playing a pretty similar deck in both paper and on MWS. This is the only thread I could find that was even close to what I have put together here but I think people are to focused on creating a lack-luster midrange deck or a "fast" WG aggro which I don't really think works. Not that it's bad it just doesn't have the tools needed to continually win in a diverse meta, in my opinion.
// Lands
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
6 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
// Creatures
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
Cards left out on purpose:
Savannah: Yeah I know this is really odd to not be in a WG deck, but it's also completely unnecessary and a liability. Wasteland, Price of Progress, and Blood Moon are all common cards that can be avoided to a degree by simply not playing it. Also, with the minor G requirements in the deck Canopy (yes I know it falls to all the listed cards, but duals don't draw) and the fetches I've only very rarely had issue with mana screw.
Knight of the Reliquary: A narrow miss but I honestly don't really love this card as much as everyone else and there aren't enough forest/plains to support him. ALTHOUGH I run Armageddon in the side and it makes this guy balls nuts so I'm actually iffy on this one. If I did include him, Savannah above would likely come in as well.
Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch: I honestly think mana dorks are counter purpose and flat out bad in the deck I posted. Although I see the advantage of evasion on birds and exalted on heirarch there isn't a card I'd want to cut for them, the acceleration is moot, and they are just hilariously to narrow.
Defending my card choices:
Mangara of Corondor + Karakas: This is just awesome, especially if you have a vial in play. Since vial will basically always sit at two it's very easy to bump it up to three and start removing a permanent a turn from your opponents board. This gives the deck the ability to draw into a very powerful synergy that can deal with very bad situations. It's your out in a bad situation, and yes I know that two-of's aren't reliable but its the most space I could see giving to it.
Ethersworn Canonist: Probably the point most people just laugh off the deck and go to the next thread. However, it allows game 1 wins versus combo, hoses bad combo players, irritates control and confuses everyone else. The more decisions you make your opponent make the better off you are in general and this card does that. It used to be a four-of until I decided I wanted Pridemages.
Tarmogoyf: It's good. I don't know why this is a topic of discussion.
Conclusion:
I know the deck looks underpowered but it's not, at least in my experience. It's also unfinished and I'm still fine tuning it as I playtest it. To me, it looks like enough of a deck to be worth putting time into which is why I'm bothering to post. I'll pay more attention to specifics in upcoming matches and post some match-up summary's then.
why do you play flagstones but no cataclysm or smt to exploid it ?
I don't know if you guys know this, but this is pretty much Death n Taxes with a G splash... Just saying.
Yeah except this thread was here long before Green and Taxes placed at SCG. ;p
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