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Thread: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

  1. #21
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I'm not sure that is accurate. Its very easy to get Threshold in combo. You are more likely to draw 1 Cabal Ritual and have threshold than you are to draw 4 Rite of Flame. Even with cantrips. If we are talking exclusively in context of the late game, then you can probably hit 2 or 3 Rites. I doubt you can consistently hit 4. You can, however, be sure that you will have threshold by the midgame.

    Also my point about Cabal Ritual getting countered is that your opponent doesn't really know what resources you have in hand. You run significantly more mana sources and acceleration than you do business. Business = 11, Non-land acceleration = 20. This is of course assuming that you aren't even bothering to protect the beginning of the spell chain with Chant or Duress. If your opponent Spell Pierces a Cabal Ritual that is only adding B, then first of all WTF are you doing playing it for B in the first place... and second why bother countering such a shitty play? Why not wait until the opponent tries to play his business...

    You are still comparing Rite to Cabal Ritual. I'm advocating that you run it in addition to Rite, not instead. That's what Waikiki did in his list. What would run instead and why? This is the real discussion I wanted to pursue.
    I never once said you would draw all four Rite of Flame. I said it's more likely you'll draw multiples of Rite of Flame in a game than you will get Threshold with Cabal Ritual.

    Why are we only talking about late game? That is ridiculous. You realize combo decks live in the early game? I've been talking about the entire game as a whole. Not the point where you've already lost because you're late game versus a deck that's been building up counters. Late game people counter mana sources, they do it early too, to stop Empty the Warrens/Tendrils from happening. You can't play business without mana, which is why people counter the mana source.

    As stated earlier, Chrome Mox number four, it's an initial mana source post-Nauseam which is very important. You never want to pass the turn or lose because you don't have enough initial sources. If you'd like to argue Cabal over this, sure.

    The second Cabal should be Ponder, it's better to stay consistent and not have to rely on the late game for your cards to become effective. Ponder will find better cards than Cabal Ritual.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    I think the focus moved more toward the late game and away from the midgame where you want to be against non-CB control. Going off early against control isn't always the optimal play especially when you have the resources to set up. I kept referencing the late game but I meant to include the mid-game in that definition. Obviously combo breathes is strongest breaths in the first few turns. Therefore, I tend to consider the late game anything past the initial few turns of the game, in the context of combo. I said "If" with the intention of shifting the discussion back toward the 'mid-game' ie. something like turns 4-7 where you can probably fill up your grave with discard, cantrips and fetchlands.

    My point about countering mana sources is that its usually not a profitable play. You are trying to go all in on your tutors, and protected so you can utilize LED. It makes no sense to counter mana sources when you can easily find another one, more easily than you can find anything else in the deck because you run such a high frequency of acceleration (20) when compared to the amount of business (11) (thats nearly twice as much non-land acceleration as business), or at least this usually how control players have played against me when I've played TES. Players who save their FoW's and such for Cabal Ritual adding BBB aren't necessarily playing against TES optimally. Besides, it makes more sense to find Cabal Rituals after you have Threshold, and play Rites when you don't, especially if you already have a Rite in the yard or have a Rite in hand. Countering TES's mana sources isn't the most optimal play unless you play to back it up with Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Daze, etc. Not every deck will have those resources on hand ATM of your combo turn, especially when you are playing disruption like Duress to see how to go about playing your hand or protecting the entire spell chain with Chant. Those are much more dangerous threats. Wasting a Daze on Cabal Ritual is profitable for the TES player. Then you can take their last piece of protection and combo out on the following turn.

    Chrome Mox vs. Cabal Ritual. Ok perpetual resources are great, but Cabal Ritual is great post-AdN because you can easily get Threshold. I guess having post-AdN mana sources is good, but I'd imagine that you usually have mana floating when you go off. Do you find that 4 Chrome Mox is that necessary? Or lack of SSG makes Chrome Mox that much more important?
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  3. #23
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I think the focus moved more toward the late game and away from the midgame where you want to be against non-CB control. Going off early against control isn't always the optimal play especially when you have the resources to set up. I kept referencing the late game but I meant to include the mid-game in that definition. Obviously combo breathes is strongest breaths in the first few turns. Therefore, I tend to consider the late game anything past the initial few turns of the game, in the context of combo. I said "If" with the intention of shifting the discussion back toward the 'mid-game' ie. something like turns 4-7 where you can probably fill up your grave with discard, cantrips and fetchlands.
    Why wouldn't you want to win as fast as possible versus a blue based deck? You don't want to sit around and wait for them to sculpt their hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    My point about countering mana sources is that its usually not a profitable play. You are trying to go all in on your tutors, and protected so you can utilize LED. It makes no sense to counter mana sources when you can easily find another one, more easily than you can find anything else in the deck because you run such a high frequency of acceleration (20) when compared to the amount of business (11) (thats nearly twice as much non-land acceleration as business), or at least this usually how control players have played against me when I've played TES. Players who save their FoW's and such for Cabal Ritual adding BBB aren't necessarily playing against TES optimally. Besides, it makes more sense to find Cabal Rituals after you have Threshold, and play Rites when you don't, especially if you already have a Rite in the yard or have a Rite in hand. Countering TES's mana sources isn't the most optimal play unless you play to back it up with Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Daze, etc. Not every deck will have those resources on hand ATM of your combo turn, especially when you are playing disruption like Duress to see how to go about playing your hand or protecting the entire spell chain with Chant. Those are much more dangerous threats. Wasting a Daze on Cabal Ritual is profitable for the TES player. Then you can take their last piece of protection and combo out on the following turn.
    I play against one of the best control players weekly in Geoff Smelski. The guy is Landstill. Late game you don't want to let mana resolve counter their business and let them windmill slam a Tendrils of Agony. It's just foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Chrome Mox vs. Cabal Ritual. Ok perpetual resources are great, but Cabal Ritual is great post-AdN because you can easily get Threshold. I guess having post-AdN mana sources is good, but I'd imagine that you usually have mana floating when you go off. Do you find that 4 Chrome Mox is that necessary? Or lack of SSG makes Chrome Mox that much more important?
    Oh, so Cabal Ritual is really good when you're already winning? Mox is good at helping you win, it's nessesary.

  4. #24
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryant Cook View Post
    Why wouldn't you want to win as fast as possible versus a blue based deck? You don't want to sit around and wait for them to sculpt their hands.
    Sure if thats the right call. The fact is, if you are sitting on a hand with multiple lands, cantrips and protection, why bother going for a fast win (if you can at all)? Its not always the right call. If winning as fast as possible against blue based decks was always the right call, then you are playing the wrong deck. Most version of SI win 60% of the time on the first turn. Having invented TES, I'm sure you prefer its flexibility to something more fragile but significantly faster like SI-TES, like I mentioned in the article.
    Speaking of which, have you ever tried that list? Its pretty good. :D

    Also, what do you think of Emidln's 3c TES list? I know you are not the biggest fan of DD but it looks like a pretty awesome post-board plan.
    Emidln from the StormBoards
    // 3c TES
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    2 Ad Nauseam
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Infernal Tutor

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Duress
    3 Thoughtseize

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Rite of Flame

    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
    SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 1 Thoughtseize
    SB: 1 Deathmark
    SB: 1 Pulverize
    SB: 3 Doomsday
    SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
    SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
    I play against one of the best control players weekly in Geoff Smelski. The guy is Landstill. Late game you don't want to let mana resolve counter their business and let them windmill slam a Tendrils of Agony. It's just foolish.
    How are you defining the late game here? When do you usually try to go off against him? It really depends on the game state. If you can go off with EtW for 8 on turn 1, unprotected, great! What if you have the option to play protection? Looking at this in a vacuum isn't healthy. I'm not advocating for always sculpting because Landstill can lay down some pretty nasty shit, like Standstill while it sits there sculpting and beating you with factories.

    Oh, so Cabal Ritual is really good when you're already winning? Mox is good at helping you win, it's nessesary.
    Sure. It can also, when coupled with a few perpetual mana sources, facilitate AdN, while multiple Rites may not. I'm sure you have issues, however occasional, with color fixing in a 5c combo deck.
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  5. #25
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Also, what do you think of Emidln's 3c TES list? I know you are not the biggest fan of DD but it looks like a pretty awesome post-board plan.
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    2 Ad Nauseam
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Infernal Tutor

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Duress
    3 Thoughtseize

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Rite of Flame

    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
    SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 1 Thoughtseize
    SB: 1 Deathmark
    SB: 1 Pulverize
    SB: 3 Doomsday
    SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
    SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
    I love this list. It's actually very similar to the one I've been rocking for the last week, only I'm not currently using Doomsday from the side... Not sure if I like it without Meditate or Top. I'm also using Cabal Ritual instead of Rite, but those seem like the only differences.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  6. #26

    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Meditate or SDT in TES is a mistake. For that matter, the 14th land might be a mistake, but I'm not sure what I'd rather have over it. That sideboard planned is designed to exploit a known weakness in common control shells in legacy, particularly one possessed by a difficult matchup for storm combo. Against the rest of non-CB decks, you don't side in Doomsday so you don't need Meditate or SDT. Against CB, you just want to Duress them and then spend 3-5 mana to win the game. Chain of Vapors are for the aggro matchups (along with the deathmark), and depending on how you play, you bring in at least the 4th Thoughtseize and possibly and Empty the Warrens against control. The 3 Doomsday number was chosen so as to keep the same amount of business in the deck postboard (siding out 2 AdN for 2 Doomsday), but that might be overzealous given that Wish now finds Doomsday (usefully, since I guess you can get it in g1, it just won't do much most of the time) postboard. That extra slot might give you an extra ETW to side in (and keep one in the wishboard) vs tempo decks or maybe something else spicy for the non-CB blue decks.

    FWIW, Cabal Ritual is better in my list than in Bryant's list, but even my list doesn't want it. Your main gameplan is to resolve AdN and failing that you try something from the wishboard. You need low initial mana investments to be competitive against the tempo decks, and with my list, the tempo matchup game 1 is a premium since you're not getting much help from the sideboard.
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  7. #27
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Sure if thats the right call. The fact is, if you are sitting on a hand with multiple lands, cantrips and protection, why bother going for a fast win (if you can at all)? Its not always the right call. If winning as fast as possible against blue based decks was always the right call, then you are playing the wrong deck. Most version of SI win 60% of the time on the first turn. Having invented TES, I'm sure you prefer its flexibility to something more fragile but significantly faster like SI-TES, like I mentioned in the article.
    Against control you want to go all in if possible, obviously you can't do it with that hand. That hand you must slow roll. But even so, Cabal Ritual wouldn't be any better in that hand than Rite of Flame/Chome Mox/Ponder. Cabal Ritual is never the answer you're looking for, because there's always a better card. That's one of my biggest issue with it, it's never exceptional. If you go all in and are stopped you have the rest of the game to rebuild, if you're rebuilding, you've probably used a Rite of Flame already, if you haven't you've probably drawn a couple. Making it just as good if not better than Cabal Ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Speaking of which, have you ever tried that list? Its pretty good. :D

    Also, what do you think of Emidln's 3c TES list? I know you are not the biggest fan of DD but it looks like a pretty awesome post-board plan.
    Emidln from the StormBoards
    Not trying to sound rude or anything, just being honest, I'm not here to talk about other storm decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    How are you defining the late game here? When do you usually try to go off against him? It really depends on the game state. If you can go off with EtW for 8 on turn 1, unprotected, great! What if you have the option to play protection? Looking at this in a vacuum isn't healthy. I'm not advocating for always sculpting because Landstill can lay down some pretty nasty shit, like Standstill while it sits there sculpting and beating you with factories.
    Late game is past the point of the average goldfish. Meaning turns 5 and on. I go off as soon as possible, I've tried slow rolling into a ton of protection and winning. It just doesn't work. Warrens is incredible against them, because if they manage to stop it they've taken 10-15 and are low enough where Tendrils off the top will end it. If you have the option of going turn one unprotected or turns 2/3 protected, you obviously go for the protection. However, you don't wait there hoping to draw protection or a better hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Sure. It can also, when coupled with a few perpetual mana sources, facilitate AdN, while multiple Rites may not. I'm sure you have issues, however occasional, with color fixing in a 5c combo deck.
    Because Rite of Flame/Chrome Mox with a few perpetual mana sources can't cast Ad Nauseam?

    Quote Originally Posted by emidln View Post
    Your main gameplan is to resolve AdN and failing that you try something from the wishboard. You need low initial mana investments to be competitive against the tempo decks.
    Quoted for truth.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Pretty good read with a really cool title.

    In my opinion, I think that TES is the closest to my playstyle and ability for replicating ANT now with Mystical Tutor gone. I like the speed and the overall resilience. It might not be the best choice for others, but I personally am not a fan of how risky some of the other storm decks can be. I like to have options.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Bryant, if you would replace the 4th Mox, what would you run instead of it?
    "Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."

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  10. #30
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahamuth View Post
    Bryant, if you would replace the 4th Mox, what would you run instead of it?
    I wouldn't. You need as many initial mana sources post-Nauseam and Returns as possible. The only other thing I could see in it's slot is a Simian Spirit Guide.

  11. #31

    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Awesome work, once again. Nicely done. I think you got lots of spare time, don't you
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    Lol. You're my hero .
    Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?

  12. #32
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Not sure where to post this, there's so many threads for storm combo and I'm not on the storm boards. Couldn't find one for Doomsday either. I remember a while back seeing a Google Doc spreadsheet for Doomsday piles that I could really use right now, as that's the direction I'm going with my deck. Can't seem to find it, at least not one that works with the problems Google has been having with that system.

    As a side note, I'm testing a version with no Infernals and no Nauseam. Straight up Doomsday, although I may change my mind and go back to 1 AdN main w/3 IT (1 SB), I'm not sure yet. Doomsday gives me just what I was looking for, a cheaper and more powerful win condition. Ad Nauseam, though powerful, has weaknesses I don't really want to try and work around anymore.

    I can post my current list if anyone wants to see it, but I'd rather be posting things like that in at least the appropriate thread, if not a private one.

    EDIT: Found it. I guess Google fixed that problem. Included link for those interested.
    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...JQqJ8Ouw#gid=0
    Last edited by DarthVicious; 07-11-2010 at 10:09 AM.

  13. #33

    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Not sure where to post this, there's so many threads for storm combo and I'm not on the storm boards. Couldn't find one for Doomsday either. I remember a while back seeing a Google Doc spreadsheet for Doomsday piles that I could really use right now, as that's the direction I'm going with my deck. Can't seem to find it, at least not one that works with the problems Google has been having with that system.

    As a side note, I'm testing a version with no Infernals and no Nauseam. Straight up Doomsday, although I may change my mind and go back to 1 AdN main w/3 IT (1 SB), I'm not sure yet. Doomsday gives me just what I was looking for, a cheaper and more powerful win condition. Ad Nauseam, though powerful, has weaknesses I don't really want to try and work around anymore.

    I can post my current list if anyone wants to see it, but I'd rather be posting things like that in at least the appropriate thread, if not a private one.

    EDIT: Found it. I guess Google fixed that problem. Included link for those interested.
    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...JQqJ8Ouw#gid=0
    The correct thread is here.
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    It's my old summary spreadsheet, I post it in teamstormboards.
    I had the 3rd version almost done with the Emrakul piles and a lot of bugs fix, but I forgot it.

    When I have some time, I update it.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Gocho View Post
    It's my old summary spreadsheet, I post it in teamstormboards.
    I had the 3rd version almost done with the Emrakul piles and a lot of bugs fix, but I forgot it.

    When I have some time, I update it.
    I don't really care about the Emrakul piles. I would like to see it however, I could always use more ideas for piles.

  16. #36
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Thanks for the pseudo-article Vacrix. I think I speak for a lot of people who have never really gotten into storm, but want to know it enough so that they can properly play against it. I always hear people spouting off about random storm variants on the source and I ask, WHERE ARE THEY!? Now we have a cute little database. Consider keeping it updated so that non-storm players can refer to the lists for testing, because I never know where to look when I just want to proxy something up quick in MWS or RL.

    But I must say, you storm players are like some weird underground linux cult. All your complicated decision trees, secret forums, dense TLDRs, and spreadsheets scare the shit out of me.
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  17. #37

    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by FoulQ View Post
    But I must say, you storm players are like some weird underground linux cult. All your complicated decision trees, secret forums, dense TLDRs, and spreadsheets scare the shit out of me.
    It's true, sometimes when I have to go to a local tournament, and I have a headache, I often curse at myself for bringing some sort of Doomsday storm deck to the tournament. Playing through 5 rounds and a top 8 with these storm decks and the infinite decisions you have to make quickly gets on my nerve, particularly if I haven't had a good night of sleep.

    Probably means I have to step up my game, and learn to play the deck better, but those academic papers don't write themselves :(.

    I'm gonna have to try to get familiar with some of these newer piles with Emrakul. I still like playing storm, and Mystical or not, it's not going to stop me from playing it (plus I'm too poor to build another deck :().

  18. #38
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by FoulQ View Post
    Thanks for the pseudo-article Vacrix. I think I speak for a lot of people who have never really gotten into storm, but want to know it enough so that they can properly play against it. I always hear people spouting off about random storm variants on the source and I ask, WHERE ARE THEY!? Now we have a cute little database. Consider keeping it updated so that non-storm players can refer to the lists for testing, because I never know where to look when I just want to proxy something up quick in MWS or RL.

    But I must say, you storm players are like some weird underground linux cult. All your complicated decision trees, secret forums, dense TLDRs, and spreadsheets scare the shit out of me.
    That database is actually a red herring. Keeps counterspells on their toes.


    I'm noticing how much more powerful Doomsday is than Ad Nauseam. AdN you can cast and draw 10-20 cards, and there's a good chance you can win the game fom there, but it's not guaranteed. You could flip all the mana in your deck with no draw and no win conditions and then you're stuck. Or you could flip all your win conditions with no mana. Doomsday is calculated, when it resolves and you draw into the pile you know it wins. What I'm wondering is the best type of protection to be running in a Doomsday deck. I have 4 Duress 4 Silence main, with 3-4 more slots on the SB. I figured I'd need Silence/Chant so I can still use IGG against blue decks.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    I considered updating it with some more lists. Then again, I've decided instead on a continuation article post-GP. Then we can see how the metagame has shifted, toward which storm combo builds, and what tech storm players have to fight through in the post-ANT age of storm combo.

    @Darth Vicious
    Doomsday is baller and is definitely the strongest storm engine in Legacy. As you said, DD wins games when it resolves. Its also way more versatile at fighting through hate, and requires a very low resource investment.
    Luck is a residue of design.



    I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
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  20. #40
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    Re: [Psuedo-Article] Ill-Gotten Pains

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    @Darth Vicious
    Doomsday is baller and is definitely the strongest storm engine in Legacy. As you said, DD wins games when it resolves. Its also way more versatile at fighting through hate, and requires a very low resource investment.
    Agreed. I decided to start testing it after Mystical got banned, and I don't even remember what it was like running Ad Nauseam.

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