LED worths indeed. Mox opal doesnt unless you like affinity. So buy led build the deck with it and have funOriginally Posted by SellaNona
@Silent Requiem
I (not too deeply) read through some of your arguments on Traditional SI vs. PSI and your later post(s). I'm playing PSI on and off since a few years. Fun surprise factor since I usually play various land destruction decks. Here's some thoughts.
Regarding your argument that PSI's Culling the Weak nets one less mana; What about Skyshroud Cutter? I love the card. Sure, you need a Bayou or dryad fist but it's not bad to imprint on a mox.
About charbelcher being less reliable in PSI, sure. It fizzles a bit too often.
I don't agree with dropping speed and aiming for turn two-three. My opinion is that you're just a worse ANT/TES deck if you're playing that many turns. Unless you prioritise fun. ;)
Chalice and Sphere threat and removal: Chalice can be played through and doesn't warrant removal since it costs us more than we win from it. Sphere is just death, gg wp and scoop. As a PSI-player I can't even get my mana down to remove the sphere if I had a way to remove it. Belcher or bust.
Past in Flames > Ill-Gotten Gains. There's a good couple of scenarios where IGG is better but I find myself wanting a PiF over IGG about 80-88% of the time. I should be a bit biased towards PiF since I find those lines much easier to think through (due to more experience with it).
I'm keeping an eye on this threads for a few days.
I'll be honest and say that I have not tested this card nearly as much as I should have, despite owning a copy. It's been around for a long time, though, and despite having been tested many times, it never caught on because it is simply so conditional. It does not enable the powerful Petal, Kobold, Culling, D4 plays that you really want in order to maximize your T1 win rate. When it does work, of course, it does exactly what you say it does - make Culling the Weak just as efficient as in a Robot or Kobold build.
That is a reasonable perspective. However, builds with Cabal Therapy are still very, very fast. They just don't always have to be fast the way that PSI does. I'm not certain that it's a better approach, but since PSI does not seem to be putting people in the top 8, I think it is worth looking at the alternatives.About charbelcher being less reliable in PSI, sure. It fizzles a bit too often.
I don't agree with dropping speed and aiming for turn two-three. My opinion is that you're just a worse ANT/TES deck if you're playing that many turns. Unless you prioritise fun. ;)
I agree that Sphere is almost certainly GG. However, only PSI really has the ability to play through Chalice at 0 (which I have done myself in tournament games). Ironically, this is in large part because the PSI Culling engine is less efficient - it relies on 1 cc creatures (or land creatures) rather than 0 cc creatures. ESG also enables PSI to generate more mana out of nothing than the other builds. But RSI (with Mox Opal) loses 50% of the deck (when you count Culling with no targets as a loss) to Chalice at 0. While it is still technically possible to win through that, the likely hood is low enough that this is not a reasonable strategy. KSI is only slightly better off.Chalice and Sphere threat and removal: Chalice can be played through and doesn't warrant removal since it costs us more than we win from it. Sphere is just death, gg wp and scoop. As a PSI-player I can't even get my mana down to remove the sphere if I had a way to remove it. Belcher or bust.
They do slightly different things. IGG gives you a lot of starting hands that just win. It's determinative, and absent disruption, there is no risk at all. It dramatically increases the T1 win rate of the deck. But you never want to see it in your opening hand, and you don't really want to draw into it mid combo.Past in Flames > Ill-Gotten Gains. There's a good couple of scenarios where IGG is better but I find myself wanting a PiF over IGG about 80-88% of the time. I should be a bit biased towards PiF since I find those lines much easier to think through (due to more experience with it).
PiF is almost the reverse. It's not a great tutor target from your opening hand, because you generally don't have enough ritual mana to abuse it properly - CRit won't have threshold and you probably don't have enough creatures to reuse Culling. However, it becomes increasingly more powerful as you run the D4 chain and your graveyard fills up. It's generally fantastic to draw into, and dramatically reduces the fizzle rate of your D4 chains.
They are both very, very good cards, and are largely a playstyle choice.
Kobold SI can easily win through Chalice of the Void by dumping the Kobolds into the Chalice of the Void and storming manually into a Tendrils of Agony, if anything Kobold SI is better than Pact SI vs Chalice of the Void because you can pro-actively discard it with Cabal Therapy or build up a manabase where Pact SI can't (if it's using Land Grant).
In addition to Skyshroud Cutter, aren'tt there another two green creature you can play for free if the opponent controls an Island or you discard a green card (I can't remember their names, but I remember the latter being the argument for Land Grant and Autumn's Veil and the former being a SB card)? Furthermore, if you're trying to enable Skyshroud Cutter and Goblin Charbelcher then I think you should look at a Forestcycling creature as a Summoner's Pact target because it's redundancy for tuturing for the Bayou and color filtering. Regardless if I remember right Skyshroud Cutter was only really meant to be a "Kobold" after you started your D4 chain because you likely draw into a land as you go thru' your cards.
Trying to answer Sphere of Resistance is a bad idea, you're better off playing with 4 Chancellor of the Annex in the board for being on the draw so they can't cast it before you can T1 them - that's standard B/r Reanimator, Oops, no Lands and Belcher tech.
You are thinking of Vine Dryad and Rushwood Legate. The first essentially still has a mana cost because you are discarding ESG (or Pact for ESG) much of the time.
Chancellor of the Annex is interesting tech that I'd not considered before. Thanks for the suggestion.
Vine Dryad has a lower cost than 1 mana since it can discard an extra Land Grant, Dryad Arbor or Autumns Veil and pitching Summoners Pact doesn't force you to go off compared to fetching an ESG, I think it depends a lot on which resources are most/least necessary to win because technically speaking pitching an Autumns Veil vs aggro is bonus mana.
I agree that the more green cards you run the better value it is. I'm not sure who's boarding in Autumn's Veil against aggro, though.
Not sure which version of Pact SI peope are running these days, but the all green set up with MD Vine Dryad and Autumn's Veil was a thing.
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Vine Dryad
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
I think anyone who plays pact si really needs to include skullwinder in their 75. Skullwinder will get you out of some shitty draw fours. Furthermore, green creatures are great in this deck with pact/culling shenanigans.
Would you like some aditional creatures to make culling and pact worth?
Has anybody seen this?
3bb
Enchantment
Liliana's contract
When this enters the battlefield you draw 4 cards and loose 4 lifes
The rest is irrelevant
Hi, I'm really interested in this deck and have been goldfishing with a PSI list over the last few months, but to my dismay my turn-one kill percentage has settled at just 30%. Are there any common mistakes newcomers to the deck make that tank their T1K%? I'd like to someday get the 60-70% rate that's claimed by experienced players (since that's the deck's main strength), but what's really concerning is that 40% of my goldfishing attempts are mulling to oblivion as I try to get a hand that can even TRY to win on turn one (no-turn-one hands are easy to identify). If every time I didn't mull to oblivion were a win, I'd be at 60%, but my experience of hands that could win on turn one is that half of them do (30% of total goldfish attempts) and half of them are whiffs, with one or more bad draw-4s or not enough mana to keep a chain going as big reasons. Might I be missing something big? Here's the list I've been using, for reference:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Odious Trow (until recently was Deathrite Shaman)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Bayou
3 Tomb of Urami
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tombstalker
Last edited by Asgarnian123; 07-24-2018 at 03:28 PM.
How did it work with the man plan postside?
Has anyone considered adding a 1 of liniana`s contract?
give some 7 card hand examples and describe what you would do with them. feel free to play them out and explain why you fizzled for each. some others can then give their advice.
-rob
Just tested 20 openers. 11 of them can't even attempt to win on turn one (as far as I can tell; this is the main thing that makes me feel like I'm missing something):
1. Pact, D4, Belcher, Trow, Petal, ESG, Belcher
2. ESG, ESG, Petal, IGG, ESG, Mox, Culling
3. Pact, D4, LED, LG, Dryad, ESG, Slithermuse
4. ESG, Pact, Tendrils, Dark, Tendrils, Culling, Cantor
5. D4, D4, ESG, ESG, Petal, Belcher, Pact
6. Mox, Dryad, Mox, ESG, Culling, LED, Culling
7. Tendrils, IT, Cabal, Cabal, Mox, Culling, Dark
8. Pact, ESG, Culling, Skullwinder, Bayou, Cabal, Dark
9. Dryad, ESG, Trow, Tendrils, LG, IT, LG
10. Cabal, Bayou, LED, Dark, Cabal, ESG, Mox
11. ESG, Dark, LG, Pact, LED, Dryad, LG
Of the 9 that had a chance, 2 fizzled:
1. Culling, LED, ESG, Mox, Culling, IT, Petal
Mox imprint Culling (B) -> Petal (UB) -> ESG (UBG) -> IT for Slithermuse, crack LED (UBBB) -> Slithermuse D7 (0): IT, ESG, LG, Belcher, D4, Bayou, Culling (fizzle)
2. Mox, D4, Pact, Petal, ESG, D4, Belcher
Mox imprint D4 (B) -> Petal (BB) -> ESG (BBG) -> Pact for Cantor (BBB) -> D4 (0): Slithermuse, ESG, LG, Mox (fizzle)
The 7 successful attempts (7/20 = 35%) went like this:
1. Pact, ESG, LED, Dark, LG, Petal, Belcher
LG for Bayou (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> ESG (BBBG) -> Belcher (0) -> LED (BBB) -> activate Belcher (revealed 28)
2. Cabal, LED, Dark, Tendrils, Bayou, Petal, D4
Bayou (B) -> Petal, LED (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> Cabal (BBBB) -> D4, crack LED (BBBB): Slithermuse, Mox, Cantor, D4 -> Mox imprint D4 (BBBBB) -> crack Petal for Cantor for blue (UBBBBB)
-> Slithermuse D7 (BB): Belcher, Pact, Culling, Dark, Mox, IT, ESG -> Dark, ESG (BBBBG) -> Pact for Skullwinder, return LED (BB) -> Culling (BBBBB) -> IT for Tendrils, crack LED (BBBBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 14)
3. LG, Slithermuse, D4, Dark, IT, Dark, IT
LG for Bayou (B) -> Dark, Dark (BBBBB) -> D4 (BB): LED, D4, LED, D4 -> IT for IGG, cracking LEDs (BBBBBB) -> IGG for IT, LED, LED (BB) -> Tutor for Tendrils, cracking LEDs (BBBBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 11)
4. ESG, IGG, ESG, IT, LG, Tendrils, LED
LG for Bayou (B) -> ESG, ESG (BGG) -> IT for Slithermuse, cracking LED (UUUG) -> Slithermuse D7 (0): Pact, Culling, Mox, IT, Cabal, Dark, Mox -> Mox imprint Culling (B) -> Dark, Cabal (BBBBBB)
-> Pact for Trow, Mox imprint Trow (BBBBBBB) -> IT for Tendrils (BBBBB) -> Tendrils (storm 10)
5. Mox, Dark, Petal, Dryad, Culling, IT, D4
Mox imprint D4 (B) -> Dark (BBB) -> Dryad, Culling (BBBBBB) -> Petal (UBBBBBB) -> IT for Slithermuse (UBBBB) -> Slithermuse D7 (B): ESG, Culling, LG, Cabal, Tendrils, Pact, ESG
-> ESG, ESG (BGG) -> Pact for Trow -> Trow, Culling (BBBBG) -> Tendrils (storm 9)
6. Cabal, Cabal, Pact, D4, Culling, LG, Mox
Pact for Trow -> Mox imprint Trow (B) -> LG for Dryad -> Dryad, Culling (BBBB) -> Cabal (BBBBB) -> D4 (BB): IT, D4, LED, Skullwinder -> Cabal (BBB) -> IT for Tendrils, crack LED (BBBB)
-> Tendrils (storm 9)
7. LG, Pact, Tendrils, Dark, Petition, Cabal, ESG
LG for Bayou (B) -> ESG (BG) -> Pact for ESG (BGG) -> Cabal (BBBG) -> Dark (BBBBBG) -> Petition for D4 (BBBB) -> D4 (B): Mox, Mox, Petal, Dark -> Dark (BBB) -> Petal (BBBB)
-> Mox, Mox -> Tendrils (storm 10)
I won't defend the 70% turn 1 win percentage because that seems pretty high to me too. That being said...when you say you're mulling into oblivion, how far down are you mulliganing to? This deck has more play than you'd expect from under 6 cards; I believe Vacrix posted a turn 1 win he had off a mulligan to 3 for example.
Don't forget that small adjustments in your list may also have an impact; this isn't to say that those choices are *wrong,* but that you may be sacrificing some speed for staying power. I haven't played the deck for a long time, but when I played PSI the list didn't play IGG, Dark Petition, or Wild Cantor. Having 3 copies of Tendrils made it easier to just keep a 7 card hand, cast a D4, and naturally Tendrils my opponent with no fuss, for example.
Of the two hands you say fizzled, one is still a turn 2 kill. The other one seems like it's just part of the deck's failure rate, though I'm not sure how I feel about it (I haven't played with Wild Cantor but I dislike the idea of spending an entire card to just fix mana). The hand might have been something you're supposed to mulligan or pass the turn on--yeah, it's a hand that "does something" turn 1, but that something is spending six cards to put you all in on a D4 with no mana remaining and only a Belcher left in hand with a pact trigger to pay next turn. You *have* to hit initial mana so any 4 cards without Lotus Petal, Land Grant, Bayou, or Chrome Mox+Black card kills you on the spot. From there, the only Belcher lines you have all require you to draw initial mana and LED because without Threshold, no other combination of 3 cards in this deck will put you up the necessary +6 mana to cast and activate a Belcher (and Belcher without activating it is no longer an option for you because of the pact trigger). You can't even naturally draw Tendrils to win with this hand because you used Mox and ESG for mana with an uncastable Belcher in hand. I'm not particularly math-minded but it seems to me there aren't many permuations of 4 cards here that don't punish you.
I haven't read this thread in a while, but wasn't the 70% T1 kill stat associated with a much more volatile list using Burning Wish and more Draw 7 effects? I don't think the more "standard" list with 0-1 draw 7s was ever at 70%. I goldfished a few hundred times with this deck a while ago and the best I could do was ~55% + some extra 2-3% game-winning set-ups like Belcher with activation mana next turn (worth noting, I played zero main-deck draw 7s in all my builds).
I can't seem to find my data right now, but I think the numbers I've gotten have been ~50% of 7-card hands can try to win turn 1, ~20% of 6-card hands, and negligible amounts of 5-card or less hands (leading to a total of ~60% turn 1 attempts when mulling for a turn one kill). My testing involved just checking the 7-card for a possible line, moving to 6 if there wasn't one, and so on down to 3. Now of course when actually playing the deck I'd do decent amount less mulling, since it's important to look for turn 2-3 wins, but this was just testing for the prupose of figuring out the maximum turn-one rate.
Dark Petition I have found to be an iffy card, might cut it for a 3rd Tendrils. While it doesn't show much in the 9-attempt sample I posted, hands with an IGG "loop" accessible account for a lot of my turn-one kills, and quite often casting Pact for Cantor is my only way to turn ESG mana into Rituals. I know you're not really arguing against them, I just thought I'd point out what I've found to be their strengths. What other cards besides a 3rd Tendrils do you think could be worth trying out in these slots?
Understandable. I really do think it's a stretch to say that this deck wins on the first turn 7 out of 10 times, and I think that is just because of the inherent inconsistency of playing so many different types of cards that need to be strung together in a certain type of way or they just don't do anything at all. In any case, I hope the way I explained the one hand that didn't pan out helps display that even some of your "can try to win on turn 1" hands have extremely low turn 1 potential that may not even be worth pursuing, but I imagine it is unlikely you get a better hand than "has a low chance of killing on turn 1" if you mulligan. I wish I had more to contribute, but I'm a rare breed in that I'm a Storm player who is garbage at math so I just solitaire decks until I can play them by feel.
To me, there's a balancing act between playing enough cards in your deck that extend your combo turn but not choking yourself on them so you don't end up having to mulligan hands that have a ton of uncastable cards. This deck can start to combo off of low resources and ends up drawing enough cards that you can overcome the fact that Skullwinder will be crap most of the time, but you don't want to overdo it because being glutted on uncastables turns your D4s into D3s and D2s. Basically, I feel like you should play IGG or Slithermuse but not both.
Thinking more about it, I believe that access to Wild Cantor in your deck actually was a trap that killed you in the example hand you showed--the fact that you had it in your deck caused you to spend your entire hand to attempt to combo from a situation where it was very unlikely you would be able to win. I don't mean that as a harsh criticism--it's something I hadn't considered until I thought a lot about the hand you asked about, but it highlights to me how Wild Cantor *seems* more free than it is. The deck has issues turning green mana into black, and don't get me wrong, *not* having Wild Cantor means you will fizzle sometimes from color issues, but I question if that is more common than fizzling from not hitting critical mass. Even when it's castable which isn't assured in this deck, Wild Cantor is still a card that turns D4s into D3s unless you *needed* it to make black mana, so you need to consider if this effect is powerful enough to add to your list of bad draws. It's tutorable, but how beneficial is that? Casting Summoner's Pact for this card as a mana fixer forces you to win that turn while also draining your resources since you're down a mana from not using Pact for ESG. If you look at the Pact-> Cantor line as -1 mana to make black, it's considerably less appealing. It's entirely possible that all of these costs you incur are worth playing Wild Cantor, but I don't think the card is being viewed as something that actually costs you.
The first PSI lists you can see here were playing a few copies of Manamorphose. I can't claim that it's better than Wild Cantor since it has its own issues, but it doesn't have the main issue I have with Wild Cantor in that it replaces itself. The deck seemed fine to me playing only Trow and Dryad Arbor as Culling the Weak fodder, but if Wild Cantor mattered to you as another creature, there are also cards like Vine Dryad and Skyshroud Cutter, Tukatongue Thalid, Young Wolf etc.
Other than that, a lot of the decks I recall played 5 win conditions in any mix of Goblin Charbelcher and Tendrils of Agony. I've seen people play anything from 4 Belcher/1 Tendrils to 4 Tendrils 1 Belcher. I'd stay away from red cards because of color issues, and because I think that those cards want to play a longer game than a deck with Summoner's Pact would want.
Thanks for all the help! You've definitely given me a decent amount of information to work with; I think I'll start with -1 IGG, -1 Cantor, -1 Dark Petition, +1 Tendrils, +2 Manamorphose and go from there (I imagine I'll probably miss having another Pactman for Culling, but there are some nice non-Cantor options there as well). It's nice to know I'm not as far off as I thought from how this deck is meant to perform when it does well; hopefully I can make it to the 55-60% turn one range (and get better at identifying when I should mull or pass).
As for going all-in on a D4 with no mana left, that seems to be the only line for a lot of hands that can *attempt* to win turn one. I imagine that most of those hands are probably ones you keep and pass with.
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